The Law Debacle Resolved
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K
Which version are you using as that will explain a lot, as the first verse says, "not even named among the Gentiles."
It does not say pagans, that is a bad translation that was done in the NIV, NLT, and EST...........
It was being allowed to continue but the one's that was ousted/shunned was not the one's allowing it to happen, it was the one/s who was doing the sinful act. 1 Corinthians 5:11 clearly shows this, "do not keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or an extortioner-not even to eat with such a person."
It is the one's doing continuing to do the sinful acts that are to be shunned !!!
K
And I answered your question, but the thing I came back on you is how can you personal tell if a overweight person who goes to the same church as you is do to gluttony or do to a medical disorder ???
That is why I mentioned that is because we have to be careful before just labeling a person one way or the other !!!
It is not a false doctrine my brother !!!
Just because you may reject or twist the many multiple scriptures that speak on falling away, departing from, and not continuing in the faith to say something other than what they clearly say. I will not reject them nor will I go against the guidance of the Holy Spirit who has lead me to the original Greek as well to understand in more detail what is being said.
Apostle James mentions condemnation (James 5:12) and saving a soul from death (James 5:19-20) in his epistle about those who fall away from the truth. The saving the soul is only in regards to if they RETURN to the Lord.
I put return in capital letters because there is a bad habit of saying these people who fall away were never in Christ to begin with. Well this scripture clearly shows they were before they fell, as one can not return to something they were never in unless they were in that place before.
Apostle Paul also a number of times speaks on apostasy, and those in apostate teaching are not saved.
Apostasy in its original meaning means one who was once in the truth, but is now gone astray walking and teaching false doctrine !!!
That is why I mentioned that is because we have to be careful before just labeling a person one way or the other !!!
It is not a false doctrine my brother !!!
Just because you may reject or twist the many multiple scriptures that speak on falling away, departing from, and not continuing in the faith to say something other than what they clearly say. I will not reject them nor will I go against the guidance of the Holy Spirit who has lead me to the original Greek as well to understand in more detail what is being said.
Apostle James mentions condemnation (James 5:12) and saving a soul from death (James 5:19-20) in his epistle about those who fall away from the truth. The saving the soul is only in regards to if they RETURN to the Lord.
I put return in capital letters because there is a bad habit of saying these people who fall away were never in Christ to begin with. Well this scripture clearly shows they were before they fell, as one can not return to something they were never in unless they were in that place before.
Apostle Paul also a number of times speaks on apostasy, and those in apostate teaching are not saved.
Apostasy in its original meaning means one who was once in the truth, but is now gone astray walking and teaching false doctrine !!!
G
Ken, you should know by now that I agree that believers can and do fall away, go astray, fall from grace, go apostate. And 90% of the time in the Bible it is describing believers like you. 10% of the time it is describing carnal believers.
Your religion or self righteousness is what the Word teaches 90% of the time. It is our own self righteousness that is the most dangerous for believers. Most believers get their lives cleaned up and live moral. And most believers go down the road of morality as the Christian way of life, not sinning because Grace gives us "freedom."
I personally believe you are saved, but you have fallen from grace, gone apostate, fallen from THE faith.
The truth and true faith is Christ alone saved us.
RETURN..............your saved, but your the older son in the prodigal story.
You have Christ +___________________ at this point in your walk.
Your religion or self righteousness is what the Word teaches 90% of the time. It is our own self righteousness that is the most dangerous for believers. Most believers get their lives cleaned up and live moral. And most believers go down the road of morality as the Christian way of life, not sinning because Grace gives us "freedom."
I personally believe you are saved, but you have fallen from grace, gone apostate, fallen from THE faith.
The truth and true faith is Christ alone saved us.
RETURN..............your saved, but your the older son in the prodigal story.
You have Christ +___________________ at this point in your walk.
K
I do not teach self-righteousness and I have not fallen from grace, and I would appreciate it if you would take your judgmental attitude else where or ignore me from now on.
There is no such thing taught in the bible of being saved and fallen from grace at the same time !!!
Nor do I teach anything that matches any of the passages describing apostate teaching, as I refute that teaching on here all the time which is why I preach against Calvinism.
John Calvin who coined the term OSAS went apostate when he formed this doctrine during the Protestant reformation movement. He derived it from Augustine's apostate lies from the 4th century !!!
There is no such thing taught in the bible of being saved and fallen from grace at the same time !!!
Nor do I teach anything that matches any of the passages describing apostate teaching, as I refute that teaching on here all the time which is why I preach against Calvinism.
John Calvin who coined the term OSAS went apostate when he formed this doctrine during the Protestant reformation movement. He derived it from Augustine's apostate lies from the 4th century !!!
K
Also I would like to add if I am reading you right as I think you have the parable of the prodigal son a little mixed up !!!
Because it seems like one minute you try to say I have fallen from grace, and yet now you say I am the example of the older son.
First problem is the older son never fell away as he stayed faithful to the Father..........
It was the younger son that fell away and was said he was dead (spiritually dead) while he was in that fallen state, when he returned to the Father then he became alive again (eternal life).
If you are calling me the older son in that parable then I thank you for that means you notice that I am faithful to the Lord our God !!!
The elder of the brothers in the Prodigal Son was not wrong in any manner, he simply misunderstood the motives of the father. He was always in good graces with his father, but the younger, the prodigal, had repented of his error and was welcomed home as being returned from the dead. Both lads were good boys.
eg - For a man who claims not to be living by rules you already are setting rules, saying what we are talking about, calling me a liar ( do not know what for ). You mentioned you were crucified. By what and whom?
Again for a man who claims not to be under condemnation, you are quick to put me under it.
Was Paul righteous? Pauls answer to this would have been interesting. He would have said all His righteousness was Jesus.
If anything was brought by his conscience, understanding or the Holy Spirit he would repent of it. He was clear that he did not want a debt on his soul or to not run the race as best he could.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
2 Cor 10:5
I think there is a real divide in what is it to walk in the Kingdom. Are we born as robots who only do exactly what the Lord tells us to do moment by moment. Lord is this right or that right? Should I go left or right?
Now as a child you always look to the parent to guide where you are going because you have no real clue.
Is this the model of christian maturity, of being a person who understands righteousness and evil, who exercises judgement over their own actions and stands before others to declare the wonderful glory of the gospel.
Think of the concepts. We are slaves to sin, we are set free to be slaves to righteousness. Jesus puts us in the driving seat, He shows us that which blesses and that which destroys. We are no longer instruments of destruction but blessing. The Lord does not say, "DO THIS GOOD DEED", he says, see the need, let your heart be moved and act.
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Rom 2:15
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:16
Now the funny thing is I am not a righteous person in the eyes of many. I drink alcohol, have tea and coffee, watch films and series that are not "wholesome" or "good". What I see is the good in everything, the blessing in amongst chaos and sin, the confusion of life, that shows the power of love.
My righteousness is purely in the faith I have in Jesus, and what guides me is the love he placed in my heart.
Accuse me of sin, lying, violence etc. it does not matter, because I know to whom I live. You are not my judge, or my saviour, I am not here to please you but my Lord.
So though I may walk in perfection, I will never know, because to know is to be proud in myself and not the Lord, and forever I will be unworthy of His grace. This does not mean I do not desire to walk in righteousness, to see need and meet it. It does not mean there is not obvious sin which needs to be pointed out, or basic standards of love and care we need to meet to show even to ourselves we know our Lord.
I am not a law keeper as some would say the argument is, but I am someone who says walking in the Spirit is not walking in the flesh and being a slave to sin. The law is there for our edification, its principles worthy of understanding, though it is not how we are justified. Forever into eternity, it is the Lord alone who is the source of life and righteousness, to which we must bend and walk.
Too many have a history of hurt and pain, living to rules without the love from the heart. The answer is not focus on what love is, and the focus of rules and self justification will find its proper place. The danger is by having this war, all you are doing is destroying the very thing you claim to stand for, love, and pushing condemnation on whoever you call the enemy, and see lies and hypocracy everywhere.
This is not a work of the Spirit but of the flesh driven by hurt and disappointment of the past.
Forgive as you have been forgiven.
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Rom 14:10
Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Rom 14:16-18
Again for a man who claims not to be under condemnation, you are quick to put me under it.
Was Paul righteous? Pauls answer to this would have been interesting. He would have said all His righteousness was Jesus.
If anything was brought by his conscience, understanding or the Holy Spirit he would repent of it. He was clear that he did not want a debt on his soul or to not run the race as best he could.
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
2 Cor 10:5
I think there is a real divide in what is it to walk in the Kingdom. Are we born as robots who only do exactly what the Lord tells us to do moment by moment. Lord is this right or that right? Should I go left or right?
Now as a child you always look to the parent to guide where you are going because you have no real clue.
Is this the model of christian maturity, of being a person who understands righteousness and evil, who exercises judgement over their own actions and stands before others to declare the wonderful glory of the gospel.
Think of the concepts. We are slaves to sin, we are set free to be slaves to righteousness. Jesus puts us in the driving seat, He shows us that which blesses and that which destroys. We are no longer instruments of destruction but blessing. The Lord does not say, "DO THIS GOOD DEED", he says, see the need, let your heart be moved and act.
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Rom 2:15
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:16
Now the funny thing is I am not a righteous person in the eyes of many. I drink alcohol, have tea and coffee, watch films and series that are not "wholesome" or "good". What I see is the good in everything, the blessing in amongst chaos and sin, the confusion of life, that shows the power of love.
My righteousness is purely in the faith I have in Jesus, and what guides me is the love he placed in my heart.
Accuse me of sin, lying, violence etc. it does not matter, because I know to whom I live. You are not my judge, or my saviour, I am not here to please you but my Lord.
So though I may walk in perfection, I will never know, because to know is to be proud in myself and not the Lord, and forever I will be unworthy of His grace. This does not mean I do not desire to walk in righteousness, to see need and meet it. It does not mean there is not obvious sin which needs to be pointed out, or basic standards of love and care we need to meet to show even to ourselves we know our Lord.
I am not a law keeper as some would say the argument is, but I am someone who says walking in the Spirit is not walking in the flesh and being a slave to sin. The law is there for our edification, its principles worthy of understanding, though it is not how we are justified. Forever into eternity, it is the Lord alone who is the source of life and righteousness, to which we must bend and walk.
Too many have a history of hurt and pain, living to rules without the love from the heart. The answer is not focus on what love is, and the focus of rules and self justification will find its proper place. The danger is by having this war, all you are doing is destroying the very thing you claim to stand for, love, and pushing condemnation on whoever you call the enemy, and see lies and hypocracy everywhere.
This is not a work of the Spirit but of the flesh driven by hurt and disappointment of the past.
Forgive as you have been forgiven.
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Rom 14:10
Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Rom 14:16-18
Sorry for the long post. I walk a road until I find a place of peace.
What I read on this thread is a lot of emotion, and too little forgiveness, too little love from the heart, and too much self righteousness it terms of understanding. I confess there is much I do not know, but as the Lord leads I understand more.
Many here are much more worthy than me, who reach out to people in dire need, who the Lord has touched in miraculous ways and brought healing to. You are good people with a precious gift.
Now learning how to grow together, to be gracious is hard. But we do need to learn it,
In the UK the issues of law and morality are important. Is gay marriage really marriage? Is shopping on a sunday ok?
So dodging the issues about law and standards does not help, because you all respond immediately to issues such as these yet claim the law means nothing. This is a mixed message and not worked through. It makes a mockery of something very dear to all of us, so let us work it through, so we can see more clearly, and know how to respond in grace.
What I read on this thread is a lot of emotion, and too little forgiveness, too little love from the heart, and too much self righteousness it terms of understanding. I confess there is much I do not know, but as the Lord leads I understand more.
Many here are much more worthy than me, who reach out to people in dire need, who the Lord has touched in miraculous ways and brought healing to. You are good people with a precious gift.
Now learning how to grow together, to be gracious is hard. But we do need to learn it,
In the UK the issues of law and morality are important. Is gay marriage really marriage? Is shopping on a sunday ok?
So dodging the issues about law and standards does not help, because you all respond immediately to issues such as these yet claim the law means nothing. This is a mixed message and not worked through. It makes a mockery of something very dear to all of us, so let us work it through, so we can see more clearly, and know how to respond in grace.
Judgement
God is the judge of us all. Each day we rise with confidence in our hearts that today will be ok.
Many doctrines impinge on our lives, some we hold, some we change, some we grow in.
Do you think God will have a judgement day exam on your doctrinal purity?
What strikes me is when doctrine leads to theft, murder, condemnation of innocents. At this point these people have sinned and fall under judgement.
Who are we to say who is saved from history and who is not?
I have already been called a liar and crucifying someone by saying one truthful statement. It is not too far for me to then be guilty of a capital crime and killed. I find this odd behaviour among individuals who claim they live under grace.
God is the judge of us all. Each day we rise with confidence in our hearts that today will be ok.
Many doctrines impinge on our lives, some we hold, some we change, some we grow in.
Do you think God will have a judgement day exam on your doctrinal purity?
What strikes me is when doctrine leads to theft, murder, condemnation of innocents. At this point these people have sinned and fall under judgement.
Who are we to say who is saved from history and who is not?
I have already been called a liar and crucifying someone by saying one truthful statement. It is not too far for me to then be guilty of a capital crime and killed. I find this odd behaviour among individuals who claim they live under grace.
You are called to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The Holy Spirit witnesses this as it teaches us this way of living. To follow this rule entails a big change from that old child of disobedience. So, yes, you ae to live a certain way. Now the good part of this is the manner each achieves tis may vary, but not a whole lot.......
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