The Letter to the Romans...
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H
All this brings me to a serious, topic , my mental condition. If any of you are a God fearing Psychiatrist, you might diagnosis my problem. It does concern me a lot. and I want to change for the good. I think, it is like being shell shocked from battled."?" or post traumatic syndrome. I have a lot of badnight mares. thanks, Hoffco
G
I think the NIV helps us to better understand the ideas. "We receive grace and apostleship to call people from among the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." So, obedience that comes from faith refers to the lifestyle that people who have been called are to live. Paul is not here attempting a definition of grace. Your equation passed over one of the factors: apostleship.
G
The Jews were fundamentalists. They thought they were obeying the law which they thought was the truth all people had to obey. The problem was they concentrated on the letter of the law and not its spirit. So they neglected mercy. They failed to love others. Fundamentalists still abound today--those who give more importance to doctrine rather than to loving people; those who destroy people with their words to defend what they believe.
This is only to help us make a proper application of the verse.
This is only to help us make a proper application of the verse.
Thanks Doug, and "it is what it is" whether I like it or not. Acceptance (Belief) is always the first stage to heal, And God is my total acceptance to all, no matter how the rain falls.
I believe to stand, like the mighty oak tree, it once was a small nut that stood it's ground, and God kept it watered.
Many times have maybe been like Job, The Devil out to get me to curse God and no matter what can't curse God. God knows and love God no matter what because God:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Ephesians 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
What are these Commandments? The Ten or the greatest of the Ten Love?
I believe to stand, like the mighty oak tree, it once was a small nut that stood it's ground, and God kept it watered.
Many times have maybe been like Job, The Devil out to get me to curse God and no matter what can't curse God. God knows and love God no matter what because God:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Ephesians 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
What are these Commandments? The Ten or the greatest of the Ten Love?
Hoffco, to me a Christian Psychologist not Phychiatrist, might be better, reason Phychologist only deals with the mind, will and emotions without drugs of any kind
Anyway, I personally see this: take it or leave it:
The thought process on all Human race is as follows: As a man thinks, (sows) so is he
I know of no one that can be angry without angry thoughts, not possible to be or get angry, without the thoughts of anger to sustain them?
Try to play it, be angry without angry thoughts, try real hard, can you do it?
So in conclusion we see it is the thoughts that sustain the actions and or reactions to any given subject right?
This world teaches to stop feeling this way or that way, really, who can change one's feelings, anyone?
Doug, look how long have you been trying to change these feelings? Have you been up and down on a roller coaster as most have been? You I guarantee are not alone, nothing is new under the Sun (SON)
So since we see no way to change our feelings what do we do?
Change our thoughts and feelings change right with them. How do we change our thoughts?
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ephesians 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
And since we are in unredeemed flesh, what would be best to try; to continue to do good and get mad? Or give up and let God's Spirit have its way? God becomes the doer through you? and you rest as you really work harder that you ever knew, except now with a Joy.
I recommend a read for you "Classic Christianity" by Bob George call 1.800.727.2828 people to people order line and ask for this book.
It can't hurt to read it, up to you. It might help and it might not, but one does not know until they seek as you are seeking Brother
Love to you from me as God loves us to completeness
Anyway, I personally see this: take it or leave it:
The thought process on all Human race is as follows: As a man thinks, (sows) so is he
I know of no one that can be angry without angry thoughts, not possible to be or get angry, without the thoughts of anger to sustain them?
Try to play it, be angry without angry thoughts, try real hard, can you do it?
So in conclusion we see it is the thoughts that sustain the actions and or reactions to any given subject right?
This world teaches to stop feeling this way or that way, really, who can change one's feelings, anyone?
Doug, look how long have you been trying to change these feelings? Have you been up and down on a roller coaster as most have been? You I guarantee are not alone, nothing is new under the Sun (SON)
So since we see no way to change our feelings what do we do?
Change our thoughts and feelings change right with them. How do we change our thoughts?
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ephesians 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
And since we are in unredeemed flesh, what would be best to try; to continue to do good and get mad? Or give up and let God's Spirit have its way? God becomes the doer through you? and you rest as you really work harder that you ever knew, except now with a Joy.
I recommend a read for you "Classic Christianity" by Bob George call 1.800.727.2828 people to people order line and ask for this book.
It can't hurt to read it, up to you. It might help and it might not, but one does not know until they seek as you are seeking Brother
Love to you from me as God loves us to completeness
No, Paul clearly put "obeyed from the heart that form of dcotrine" BEFORE "then freed free sins".
Spiritually dead men can seek God. Peter's lost listeners in Acts 2, the jailer i ACts 16 the eunuch in Acts 8 while all were dead in sins were able to hear, understand the gospel messge and asked what to do to be saved, what hindered them to be saved. Again, they did this while all in a dead, lost state.
In Acts 17:26,27 Paul said all men can seek God.
1 Chron 22:19 "Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God;..."
2 Chron 12:14 "And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the Lord"
2 Chron 30:18,19 "The good Lord pardon every one That prepareth his heart to seek God"
Ezra 7:10 "For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments."
Isa 55:6 "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"
Mt 7:8 "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Men can seek God they just have to choose to have the desire to do so. Many verses command men to seek God. THe command implies man's ability and responisbility to seek God.
Spiritually dead men can seek God. Peter's lost listeners in Acts 2, the jailer i ACts 16 the eunuch in Acts 8 while all were dead in sins were able to hear, understand the gospel messge and asked what to do to be saved, what hindered them to be saved. Again, they did this while all in a dead, lost state.
In Acts 17:26,27 Paul said all men can seek God.
1 Chron 22:19 "Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God;..."
2 Chron 12:14 "And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the Lord"
2 Chron 30:18,19 "The good Lord pardon every one That prepareth his heart to seek God"
Ezra 7:10 "For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments."
Isa 55:6 "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:"
Mt 7:8 "For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Men can seek God they just have to choose to have the desire to do so. Many verses command men to seek God. THe command implies man's ability and responisbility to seek God.
I see that the problems the Jews had was the the OT law did not require faith, Gal 3:12. So the Jews faithlessly went about trying to keep the law perfectly whereby they would merit salvation. Of course they could not do this for they would eventually sin. Sometimes the Jews replaced God's law with their own traditions then they went about keep thier own traditions perfecly thinking that would merit salvation. The thing God wanted from the Jews was a simple obedient faith and not a lot of faithless law keeping. Abraham did not keep God's law perfectly for he sinned, but he had an obedient faith, [Heb 11:8, James 2:21-24] by which he was reckoned righteous. If Christians follow NT doctrine, they will love people.
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If the only way I could be saved is if God gives me a "spiritual birth" and I have no say so or control or part in my own salvation, then if I am not given this "spirit birth" by God then it would be God's fault I would be lost.
When you try and make God 100% responsible for man's salvation and 0% responsibility for man, then God is 100% at fault for the lost. How can God condemn me to hell for not having had this "spiritual birth" when God is 100% in control of who does and does not get this birth?
In other words, you have God making this "spiritual birth" a requirement for me to be saved, yet being "spiritual born" is 100% out of my control. So God condemns me to hell for not having this "spiritual birth" when it was God's failure to give me this "spiritual birth". How can it be my fault or blame for not having this "spiritual birth" when it was out of my control?
When you try and make God 100% responsible for man's salvation and 0% responsibility for man, then God is 100% at fault for the lost. How can God condemn me to hell for not having had this "spiritual birth" when God is 100% in control of who does and does not get this birth?
In other words, you have God making this "spiritual birth" a requirement for me to be saved, yet being "spiritual born" is 100% out of my control. So God condemns me to hell for not having this "spiritual birth" when it was God's failure to give me this "spiritual birth". How can it be my fault or blame for not having this "spiritual birth" when it was out of my control?
You are born lost, are by nature objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3; Jn 3:36),
born in the sin of Adam, which condemns you (Ro 5:18-19).
God owes you only one thing--justice.
God can be faulted only if he does not give you the justice he owes you.
He does you no injustice by not saving you, for he does not owe you salvation.
The same way the law holds you at fault or blame for driving without a license at 13,
when the law is 100% in control of who does and does not get this driver's license.
You are not born entitled to a driver's license, and you are not born entitled to the new birth.
The law does you no injustice by not issuing you the driver's license,
and God does you no injustice by not giving you the new birth.
The law is faultless in not issuing you a driver's license,
and God is faultless in not saving you,
for there is fault only where there is injustice.
Sorry, your human reasoning cannot fault God.
born in the sin of Adam, which condemns you (Ro 5:18-19).
God owes you only one thing--justice.
God can be faulted only if he does not give you the justice he owes you.
He does you no injustice by not saving you, for he does not owe you salvation.
The same way the law holds you at fault or blame for driving without a license at 13,
when the law is 100% in control of who does and does not get this driver's license.
You are not born entitled to a driver's license, and you are not born entitled to the new birth.
The law does you no injustice by not issuing you the driver's license,
and God does you no injustice by not giving you the new birth.
The law is faultless in not issuing you a driver's license,
and God is faultless in not saving you,
for there is fault only where there is injustice.
Sorry, your human reasoning cannot fault God.
C
Out of curiosity, if God saves or damns by His determination then what purpose is there in having indicated that 'whosoever will believe' will have everlasting life, when, accordingly, if one is pre-determined for life, that faith was not needed in the first place, although it says that faith is what saves?
The bible does not teach men are born lost. Jesus was not born lost.
'Nature' in the context of Eph 2:3 means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature" Strongs.
If you practice something for a long time, it becomes part of your nature. The context tells us the Ephesians, prior to converting to Christianity, had "walked according to the course of this world" and " had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" The Ephesians had walked, lived in and habitually practiced sin for so long it became part of their nature, not how they were born...they had "by custom" become children of wrath, H. McCord's translation of the Bible.
Furthermore, Eph 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,"
The Ephesians were accountable and responsible for their own sins, not sin they supposedly inherited from anyone else.
Lastly, ".....and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
I am not a Greek scholar, but there are some interesting facts about the Greek verb "were" as noted by Wayne Jackson:
".....in verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past. Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath.”
it is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility. Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”
https://www.christiancourier.com/art...ldren-of-wrath
GOd owing or not owing me something has nothing to do with it.
--If I have no role or part in my salvation
--God has made being "spiritually born" necessary to being save
--I cannot choose to be "spiritually baptized" or "spiritually baptize" myself or force God to "spiritually baptize"
--so if I am not "spiritually baptized", whose fault is that?
'Nature' in the context of Eph 2:3 means "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature" Strongs.
If you practice something for a long time, it becomes part of your nature. The context tells us the Ephesians, prior to converting to Christianity, had "walked according to the course of this world" and " had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" The Ephesians had walked, lived in and habitually practiced sin for so long it became part of their nature, not how they were born...they had "by custom" become children of wrath, H. McCord's translation of the Bible.
Furthermore, Eph 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,"
The Ephesians were accountable and responsible for their own sins, not sin they supposedly inherited from anyone else.
Lastly, ".....and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
I am not a Greek scholar, but there are some interesting facts about the Greek verb "were" as noted by Wayne Jackson:
".....in verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past. Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath.”
it is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility. Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”
https://www.christiancourier.com/art...ldren-of-wrath
GOd owing or not owing me something has nothing to do with it.
--If I have no role or part in my salvation
--God has made being "spiritually born" necessary to being save
--I cannot choose to be "spiritually baptized" or "spiritually baptize" myself or force God to "spiritually baptize"
--so if I am not "spiritually baptized", whose fault is that?