THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

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EleventhHour

Guest
Look at 2 Corinthians 7. Paul tells them that a godly sorrow leads them to repentance. He scolded them in his first letter he wrote to them, of all the chaos there in their church. Abusing the Lord’s table, suing each other, allowing a member to be in their congregation who had his dad‘s wife(hoping it was step mom and not his mother, both are bad, but mother? Ewwwwww!), etc. He commended them in that their repentance brought forth actions to rectify the problems his first letter addressed. True repentance is accompanied by true change of actions.
I agree that of course when we change our mind about something it will typically have a resulting action, that is just logical, having

said that we cannot add to the meaning of the word, from a linguistic/semantic point of view that would be the incorrect thing to do.

Carry on...
 
Oct 25, 2018
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I agree that of course when we change our mind about something it will typically have a resulting action, that is just logical, having

said that we cannot add to the meaning of the word, from a linguistic/semantic point of view that would be the incorrect thing to do.

Carry on...
Metanoia means change of mind, but it’s more than just that. As Dr. Mounce said, a butterfly is not a dairy product with wings.
 
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Hello @Sudakar, I'm not sure what happened with the formatting while I was rushing to meet the 5 minute editing deadline in post #214 above. Sorry about that.

The good news is, I believe that the entire quote is there, even if it looks a little "off" due to the formatting (you are, of course, welcome to see the entire quote at Dr. MacArthur's website. The link I left to it in the same post will take you right there :)).

~Deut
Not to change the subject, but are you reformed?
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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So works is a necessary condition for salvation, together with faith. That is what James is literally saying right?
Is James such a bad communicator that he would need anyone of us to help him to explain what he "really" meant?
Hello Guojing, St. James speaks of two different ~kinds~ of faith in the second chapter of his Epistle, 1. a lively/saving faith that RESULTS in all of the things that ACCOMPANY salvation and 2. a dead faith that ~results~ in nothing.

Here are just some of the many things that result from our being saved and made "His workmanship", good works, obedience, and our desire and choice to live a holy (rather than sinful) lifestyle. The things that accompany salvation do not save us (nor do they maintain our salvation), rather, they are fruit of our salvation, as well a justification of who/what we say we have become .. James 2:24, as the things that accompany our salvation demonstrate (to ourselves and to others .. 2 Corinthians 13:5) that we are who we say we are/now claim to be, a believer.

So, what we do/say (and even how we think) tells us (and others) who we really are! Therefore, if someone who claims to be a Christian never changes, or quickly returns to living the kind of sinful lifestyle that they were living prior to making that claim, then chances are more than just good that they are 'not' who they say they are (and perhaps even believe themselves to be .. cf Matthew 7:22-23), and their ~claim~ of being "in Christ" should be regarded as nothing more than that.

As St. James says (no doubt tongue in cheek),

James 2
18 Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

~Deut
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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Not to change the subject, but are you reformed?
Yes (though I am now part of the Evangelical Free Church of America). Considering the quotes that I see in your signature line, I'm guessing that you do not have a problem with that ;) (being Reformed, that is).

~Deut
 
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Hello Guojing, St. James speaks of two different ~kinds~ of faith in the second chapter of his Epistle, 1. a lively/saving faith that RESULTS in all of the things that ACCOMPANY salvation and 2. a dead faith that ~results~ in nothing.

Here are just some of the many things that result from our being saved and made "His workmanship", good works, obedience, and our desire and choice to live a holy (rather than sinful) lifestyle. The things that accompany salvation do not save us (nor do they maintain our salvation), rather, they are fruit of our salvation, as well a justification of who/what we say we have become .. James 2:24, as the things that accompany our salvation demonstrate (to ourselves and to others .. 2 Corinthians 13:5) that we are who we say we are/now claim to be, a believer.

So, what we do/say (and even how we think) tells us (and others) who we really are! Therefore, if someone who claims to be a Christian never changes, or quickly returns to living the kind of sinful lifestyle that they were living prior to making that claim, then chances are more than just good that they are 'not' who they say they are (and perhaps even believe themselves to be .. cf Matthew 7:22-23), and their ~claim~ of being "in Christ" should be regarded as nothing more than that.

As St. James says (no doubt tongue in cheek),

James 2
18 Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

~Deut
The problem with all these explanations, is that they are trying to help James explain to others what he "really" meant.

If James did not mean what he said, why don't he just say what he meant?

Why not just accept what he is literally saying, that faith without works will not save anyone?

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Yes (though I am now part of the Evangelical Free Church of America). Considering the quotes that I see in your signature line, I'm guessing that you do not have a problem with that ;) (being Reformed, that is).

~Deut
I was thinking you were. But was 100% for certain. Thanks for answering my question.
 
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The problem with all these explanations, is that they are trying to help James explain to others what he "really" meant.

If James did not mean what he said, why don't he just say what he meant?

Why not just accept what he is literally saying, that faith without works will not save anyone?

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Saved is not a one time thing. We have been saved from the penalty of sin at the very moment He has forgiven us. We are being saved from the power of sin via sanctification of the Holy Spirit. And we will be finally saved from the presence of sin at glorification.
 
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Saved is not a one time thing. We have been saved from the penalty of sin at the very moment He has forgiven us. We are being saved from the power of sin via sanctification of the Holy Spirit. And we will be finally saved from the presence of sin at glorification.
Yes, as I was saying all the time, but u keep disagreeing with me.

James is saying that faith without works will not save anyone.

That literally means works are necessary for salvation.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
If you really want to engage with someone, try to say more than a yes or no.

Otherwise, there is no need for you to reply. If you disagree, just ignore the post
Sometimes nothing more to say,
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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The problem with all these explanations, is that they are trying to help James explain to others what he "really" meant. If James did not mean what he said, why don't he just say what he meant? Why not just accept what he is literally saying, that faith without works will not save anyone?

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him
?
Hello again Guojing, I believe that a proper understanding of what is written in the Bible often requires that we take a deeper look, one that goes beyond our 'first blush' impressions of a verse or passage, to have any hope of arriving at the Lord's intended meaning. This should not be surprising considering that great number of human authors that He chose to use, their varied situations in life and POV's, that they wrote what they did more than two millennia ago, as well a number of other factors.

That said, I believe exactly what you do, that faith w/o works will not save anyone, but that does 'not' mean that our works have anything to do with our salvation (other than demonstrating to us that it is real/that we are really and truly saved), as Jesus, Paul, Peter and others make plain to us in many other passages.


Surely you'd agree that a proper exegesis of a passage must not directly contradict what is taught (in other places) in the Bible :unsure:

Perhaps this will be helpful
(it's a quote from Calvin, and just FYI, Luther taught the exact same principle using slightly different words),

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"

The fact of the matter is, if the word δικαιόω (translated as "justified" in our Bibles) carries the same meaning in St. James' Epistle as it does in many/most places in the Pauline Epistles, then we have a big problem, because that would mean that the Bible contradicts itself. The good news is, 1. words have more than one meaning, and 2. I believe St. James makes his meaning clear (by what he wrote in Chapter two prior to v24 .. cf v18).

~Deut
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Hello again Guojing, I believe that a proper understanding of what is written in the Bible often requires that we take a deeper look, one that goes beyond our 'first blush' impressions of a verse or passage, to have any hope of arriving at the Lord's intended meaning. This should not be surprising considering that great number of human authors that He chose to use, their varied situations in life and POV's, that they wrote what they did more than two millennia ago, as well a number of other factors.

That said, I believe exactly what you do, that faith w/o works will not save anyone, but that does 'not' mean that our works have anything to do with our salvation (other than demonstrating to us that it is real/that we are really and truly saved), as Jesus, Paul, Peter and others make plain to us in many other passages.

Surely you'd agree that a proper exegesis of a passage must not directly contradict what is taught (in other places) in the Bible :unsure:

Perhaps this will be helpful (it's a quote from Calvin, and just FYI, Luther taught the exact same principle using slightly different words),

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone"

The fact of the matter is, if the word δικαιόω (translated as "justified" in our Bibles) carries the same meaning in St. James' Epistle as it does in many/most places in the Pauline Epistles, then we have a big problem, because that would mean that the Bible contradicts itself. The good news is, 1. words have more than one meaning, and 2. I believe St. James makes his meaning clear (by what he wrote in Chapter two prior to v24 .. cf v18).

~Deut
James wrote his letter to the 12 tribes, and he wrote it before Paul wrote any of his epistles.

I think many people assumed that, just because James was placed after Paul's letters, that James must have read and understood everything Paul said, before writing his letters to the 12 tribes.

There is no worry of any contradiction to me. James was writing to the Jews and he was preaching the gospel of the cicumcision to them, that they needed works together with their faith.

The ascended Christ never told any of them, including James, that the Law of Moses was no longer required from the Jews.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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Its faith without works, not works without faith. You understood James wrongly
Pardon my interruption of your conversation with sack cloth but both of you are right
it is true faith without works is dead but works without faith is also dead they are both intertwined and cannot be with out the other no matter which one is in front of the other
 
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Pardon my interruption of your conversation with sack cloth but both of you are right
it is true faith without works is dead but works without faith is also dead they are both intertwined and cannot be with out the other no matter which one is in front of the other
So do you agree that James is saying BOTH works and faith are necessary to be saved?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Do you have a Scripture that says it is automatic?
It is know by experience. Do not ask everyone who shares with you the gifts of God for chapter and verse, it is not necessary when the Holy Spirit is present to affirm.

Also, it is known by the experience of followers of Jesus-Yeshua.
 
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If you really want to engage with someone, try to say more than a yes or no.

Otherwise, there is no need for you to reply. If you disagree, just ignore the post
I’ve told you over and over works are not necessary for salvation. K?