The Lie of Parental Forgiveness: Rebuilding the Veil Jesus Broke

[FreeNChrist]

And this is why I am surprised. I know that and I know you know that.

The way I read it, it seems that you don't believe in confession(naming and siting sin to GOD) at all for a believer. For any means or reason.

Then you just aren't paying attention.

 

[crossnote]

You stated its length as to the reason you didn't read it ("to just hear another person's opinion."). I am redirecting you there because you still falsely believe 1 John 1:9 as applicable to a believer instead of understanding it as the recognition of being a sinner in need of Jesus Christ (cleansing them from all unrighteousness by His blood/sacrifice).

PS: I think this is petty, to be honest. Have an open mind.

I'll repeat post 126 which maybe you didn't read...

John 1:7-9 KJVS
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Why does vs 9 say cleanses 'us'...us as Christians?
Why is there also a cleansing going on in vs 7 if Christians don't need cleansing?
Short circuit the continual working of the Blood at your own risk.

Cleansing is going on in v.7 which obviously is referring to Christians...who else is having fellowship with each other while the BLOOD of Jesus is cleansing???
And why the cleansing by the blood? Sounds like a purifying going on.

Petty? I won't even go there.

 

[Grace777x70]

I do!..I love doing confessing all things!..now that I know the grace of Christ..I love to run into the arms of my Father and tell Him everything I have done wrong when I do it.....but most of the time I talk to Him on a constant basis....I like the Brother Lawrence way of "practicing the presence of God....that's what the Lord has me doing now...actually for a few years now..I haven't had a "quiet time " per se for a few years but sometimes I do have protracted times with Him..just not scheduled...

And this is why I am surprised. I know that and I know you know that.

The way I read it, it seems that you don't believe in confession(naming and siting sin to GOD) at all for a believer. For any means or reason.

 

[PeterJens]

How is it hyper-grace believers cannot see we understand 100% what they are saying.
The assumption is belief matters more than behaviour. The second idea is a super-spiritual "experience" transforms them so they are now 100% acceptable while continuing to sin. If it was true, yes it would be something to rejoice about.

But compromise to this extent is just denial of ones own behaviour. Jesus walking on earth was a statement that walking righteously is possible. Claiming Jesus's love is so great, His grace so fantastic, to distort it like this is to deny the Lord and His impact on the soul of a human.

Now spirit filled christians, walking in the gifts etc. knowing everything you have experienced still do not agree with your position. So it is much more than just spiritual experience.

God "repented" is a difficult concept. God knows the future so why would He change His mind, because the end is known.
God changes His mind to prove a point. He is prepared to work with us, give us a fair break, to respond appropriately to our actions, though the end is known.

John the Baptist called people to repent of their sins, which they confessed before being baptised.
Now repentance can be used in the two situations but mean different things.

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

Arrogance is a dangerous thing. The Lord leaves things until their final conclusion comes about.
Who wants to fall into the hands of the Lord? People talk very easily about grace as if trampling on Gods grace is something He sits by and watches and forgives. The Lord is righteous and true, just and full of honour.

Ofcourse hyper-grace followers have nothing to worry about, because they are walking in the Lords ways.
They are all so convinced because they have the perfect spirit in them and they are innocent victims of the flesh.
Until they wake up and find its not true.

 

[Euphemia]

How is it hyper-grace believers cannot see we understand 100% what they are saying.
The assumption is belief matters more than behaviour. The second idea is a super-spiritual "experience" transforms them so they are now 100% acceptable while continuing to sin. If it was true, yes it would be something to rejoice about.

But compromise to this extent is just denial of ones own behaviour. Jesus walking on earth was a statement that walking righteously is possible. Claiming Jesus's love is so great, His grace so fantastic, to distort it like this is to deny the Lord and His impact on the soul of a human.

Now spirit filled christians, walking in the gifts etc. knowing everything you have experienced still do not agree with your position. So it is much more than just spiritual experience.

God "repented" is a difficult concept. God knows the future so why would He change His mind, because the end is known.
God changes His mind to prove a point. He is prepared to work with us, give us a fair break, to respond appropriately to our actions, though the end is known.

John the Baptist called people to repent of their sins, which they confessed before being baptised.
Now repentance can be used in the two situations but mean different things.

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

Arrogance is a dangerous thing. The Lord leaves things until their final conclusion comes about.
Who wants to fall into the hands of the Lord? People talk very easily about grace as if trampling on Gods grace is something He sits by and watches and forgives. The Lord is righteous and true, just and full of honour.

Ofcourse hyper-grace followers have nothing to worry about, because they are walking in the Lords ways.
They are all so convinced because they have the perfect spirit in them and they are innocent victims of the flesh.
Until they wake up and find its not true.

This is just more poppycock---disguised as some sort of understanding, but of what? Certainly not about brothers and sisters in Christ who have experienced the great grace of God. Haven't you? You speak as though you despise the brethren.


.

 

[BenFTW]

How is it hyper-grace believers cannot see we understand 100% what they are saying.
The assumption is belief matters more than behaviour. The second idea is a super-spiritual "experience" transforms them so they are now 100% acceptable while continuing to sin. If it was true, yes it would be something to rejoice about.

But compromise to this extent is just denial of ones own behaviour. Jesus walking on earth was a statement that walking righteously is possible. Claiming Jesus's love is so great, His grace so fantastic, to distort it like this is to deny the Lord and His impact on the soul of a human.

Now spirit filled christians, walking in the gifts etc. knowing everything you have experienced still do not agree with your position. So it is much more than just spiritual experience.

God "repented" is a difficult concept. God knows the future so why would He change His mind, because the end is known.
God changes His mind to prove a point. He is prepared to work with us, give us a fair break, to respond appropriately to our actions, though the end is known.

John the Baptist called people to repent of their sins, which they confessed before being baptised.
Now repentance can be used in the two situations but mean different things.

Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:6

Arrogance is a dangerous thing. The Lord leaves things until their final conclusion comes about.
Who wants to fall into the hands of the Lord? People talk very easily about grace as if trampling on Gods grace is something He sits by and watches and forgives. The Lord is righteous and true, just and full of honour.

Ofcourse hyper-grace followers have nothing to worry about, because they are walking in the Lords ways.
They are all so convinced because they have the perfect spirit in them and they are innocent victims of the flesh.
Until they wake up and find its not true.

In your second sentence you already brought up a false accusation, something the Gospel of Grace doesn't endorse or teach. You propagate a defamatory accusation against the Gospel of Grace as saying that we have a license to sin. That is incorrect and no one is saying such.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's useless Ben..we have said that grace is not a license to sin to this individual at the very least 30x times..and he still says the opposite...it is a waste of time...

In your second sentence you already brought up a false accusation, something the Gospel of Grace doesn't endorse or teach. You propagate a defamatory accusation against the Gospel of Grace as saying that we have a license to sin. That is incorrect and no one is saying such.

 

[Euphemia]

In your second sentence you already brought up a false accusation, something the Gospel of Grace doesn't endorse or teach. You propagate a defamatory accusation against the Gospel of Grace as saying that we have a license to sin. That is incorrect and no one is saying such.

Ben ForTheWin---LOL!

 

[KennethC]

A clear conscience is found in a revelation of God's grace, not sin confession. I rest in Jesus and know I am not condemned. My conscience is clear because I have forgiveness already. This is one reason among many as to why we need to continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:2King James Version (KJV)

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Misused by Grace teachers..............

This is a popular verse that grace teachers misuse because they place it out of context.

The reason those who sacrificed animals for sins in the OT had a sin conscious was because they only sacrificed once a year for their sins, therefore they had to remember all the sinful things they had done that year when they went to the temple to make a sacrifice for those sins.

We in Christ under the New Covenant do not have to worry, because we can confess our sins and be forgiven of them everyday when we have sinned.

The sin conscious thus has no bearing on us because we do not have to dwell on sins of the past, they are forgiven, washed clean by Jesus blood, and cast away never to be used against us again !!!

This time of refreshing happens each time we sin and confess it and move forward in the Light !!!

 

[Euphemia]

Misused by Grace teachers..............

This is a popular verse that grace teachers misuse because they place it out of context.

The reason those who sacrificed animals for sins in the OT had a sin conscious was because they only sacrificed once a year for their sins, therefore they had to remember all the sinful things they had done that year when they went to the temple to make a sacrifice for those sins.

We in Christ under the New Covenant do not have to worry, because we can confess our sins and be forgiven of them everyday when we have sinned.

The sin conscious thus has no bearing on us because we do not have to dwell on sins of the past, they are forgiven, washed clean by Jesus blood, and cast away never to be used against us again !!!

This time of refreshing happens each time we sin and confess it and move forward in the Light !!!

There is no misuse of that verse here.

.

 

[KennethC]

There is no misuse of that verse here.

.

Yes there is because a couple of your hyper-grace buddies think and have stated that those of us who speak as the bible does that you have to acknowledge and deal with your sins as having a sin conscious.

They take that verse and try to make the above in bold is wrong !!!

Problem is the bible says we can not grow and mature in the faith if you don't recognize, acknowledge, and deal with our sins. It states people that do not acknowledge their sinful ways are like a deceived man looking into a mirror and then when they walk away quickly forget and return back to those sinful ways.

We can not handle and help out others in theirs if we don't even deal with our own, Lord Jesus makes this clear !!!

Nobody is dwelling over past sins, and dealing with future sins as they come along is not having a sin conscious. Yet a couple on here have tried to say that is and have used Hebrews 10:2 to defend that stance.

That scripture deals with OT sacrifices for sins and does not apply under the New Covenant !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

That is a false statement kennethc......nobody ever said they don't deal with sin at all.....that is so wrong on so many fronts........people have said not to be sin-conscious..but to be Christ-conscious....maybe this term is better for you..do not be sin-focused..be Christ-focused..

Look at what Christ has done for you...keep your mind on things above where we are seated with Christ...

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Yes there is because a couple of your hyper-grace buddies think and have stated that those of us who speak as the bible does that you have to acknowledge and deal with your sins as having a sin conscious.

!!!

 

[KennethC]

That is a false statement kennethc......nobody ever said they don't deal with sin at all.....that is so wrong on so many fronts........people have said not to be sin-conscious..but to be Christ-conscious....maybe this term is better for you..do not be sin-focused..be Christ-focused..

Look at what Christ has done for you...keep your mind on things above where we are seated with Christ...

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

So now you are denying what you just said just the other day ???

Because the discussion was nowhere focused on people still focusing on doing sinful deeds, it was about dealing and acknowledging our sins as they come along.

Your conviction must have got the best of you since you are jumping on this instead of admitting what you said, and thus got to go and turn it around trying to say I or other are lying.

Are you ever going to be honest and truthful, or are you going to keep denying and pushing false accusations on others ???

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..kennethc....the whole point was to be Christ-focused and you know it...we don't focus on sin..we focus on the Lord and what Christ has done for us...

go get that post with the # on it and show me where we have said that we never acknowledge sin at all..that is just "balderdash" again.....go get the post # and back up what you are saying....thank you.

Actually I will go get a quote from me I just made today while you are doing your hunt......

So now you are denying what you just said just the other day ???

Because the discussion was nowhere focused on people still focusing on doing sinful deeds, it was about dealing and acknowledging our sins as they come along.

Your conviction must have got the best of you since you are jumping on this instead of admitting what you said, and thus got to go and turn it around trying to say I or other are lying.

Are you ever going to be honest and truthful, or are you going to keep denying and pushing false accusations on others ???

 

[Grace777x70]

Found it...

I know that I have struggled with this 1 John 1:9 thing initially as well. For me it was part of my religious upbringing and wanting to "get right" because I was told this is the way it is....ask for forgiveness in order to get that forgiveness .........which in reality is already ours in Christ.

The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use. ...what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character..

.I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...

I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...

You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.


To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.

For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )

This truth applies to all areas of our lives. This is something that the Lord is showing me now at this stage in my life with Him.

So now you are denying what you just said just the other day ???

Because the discussion was nowhere focused on people still focusing on doing sinful deeds, it was about dealing and acknowledging our sins as they come along.

Your conviction must have got the best of you since you are jumping on this instead of admitting what you said, and thus got to go and turn it around trying to say I or other are lying.

Are you ever going to be honest and truthful, or are you going to keep denying and pushing false accusations on others ???

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is another time just 11 hours ago where I posted this..the question was asked if I acknowledge sin...this was my answer..in this very thread earlier today..

Personally I love to run to my Father and talk about everything... as I am sure all believers in the true grace of Christ do.


There is a lot more...it's in post #21

So now you are denying what you just said just the other day ???

Because the discussion was nowhere focused on people still focusing on doing sinful deeds, it was about dealing and acknowledging our sins as they come along.

Your conviction must have got the best of you since you are jumping on this instead of admitting what you said, and thus got to go and turn it around trying to say I or other are lying.

Are you ever going to be honest and truthful, or are you going to keep denying and pushing false accusations on others ???

 

[Euphemia]

Yes there is because a couple of your hyper-grace buddies think and have stated that those of us who speak as the bible does that you have to acknowledge and deal with your sins as having a sin conscious.

You must mean "sin-conscience". I have never read anyone who understands our state in light of God's great grace to say anything of the kind. I believe you have misinterpreted someone.

 

[Kaycie]

God wants us to even love our enemies right? Yes God loves the whole world- that's why He gave us a chance by giving us His Son- that whosoever believith INTO (not in, but into- false translation) Him SHOULD not perish (if you believe then you should decide to get saved so that you won't perish) but have everlasting life instead of everlasting death- which is hell- which is eternal separation from God.

If I have one of those tall backyard pools, and I put a ladder so you can get into the pool, does that mean if you are on the ladder that you are in the pool? Of course not. In the same way, belief is what you need to get into Christ- it is not in Christ, but what is needed to get into Christ. Because if you get baptized without belief and intention, you just get wet. Not everyone who dives into a pool to go swimming is baptized just because they were under water. And not everyone who simply believes is saved. Demons believe, and that faith does not save them, why? Because you must obey, and you won't obey unless you first believe. Our obedience does not earn grace, but God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey (not just believe- otherwise demons would have grace).

Which brings me to my point. Although God loves everyone, His love don't save everyone- only those who obey. Then those who do not obey will be cast into eternal separation from God (hell). When your Father is also your Judge, both judicial and parental forgiveness go hand and hand. The bible says He disciplines those He accepts as a son or daughter, but if you are not even His child, He still loves you, but in a way that He tells us to love our enemies. But, and get this, if we do not obey Him (confessing our sins being one thing we have to obey) then He will not accept us as a son or daughter, and we will be among His enemies, and grace will no longer be our privilege. But IF we confess our sins (ongoing) He is faithful to forgive us (ongoing).

Just the fact that Jesus died on the cross does not save the world. He loved us so much that He gave us the ticket, but we have to go redeem it. We need to hear, believe, repent, confess Jesus is the Son of the Living God, get baptized INTO Christ, obey Him, and remain faithful till we died. Jesus did not say, "I did it all, so you can just kick up your feet and relax until you die." He said you MUST take up your cross and follow Him (effort). He said each one of you MUST work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (effort). He said not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord! will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who DO the will of My Father in heaven (effort). The bible says flame of fire He will take vengeance on those who (1) know not God (no effort to study to get to know Him) and (2) who obey not the gospel of His Son (effort).

All this his hyper grace mumble jumble is like saying Jesus supplied parachutes, so it's ok to jump out of the plane without the effort of putting them on. They exist, and that's all that's needed, so just relax, Jesus did it all for you.

(Watch that first step, it's a doozie)

 

[Grace777x70]

and that leads us to...Myth 12: The Hyper-Grace Gospel Makes People Lazy

Grace is a soft gospel for soft Christians,” say the critics. “Grace promotes passivity and laziness.” It does? I guess somebody forgot to tell Paul:
By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (1 Cor. 15:10)

This is not a Grammy speech. This is Paul giving us the secret to his success.

Paul was a tough-as-nails church planter. He wrote letters that would shape the world for 2,000 years. How’d he do it? “I didn’t make this happen,” said Paul. “God and I did it together.”

Grace doesn’t make people lazy; it makes them supernaturally fruitful. In contrast with the law that provides no aid to those who trust it, grace makes us soar. A 300-year-old poem from John Bunyan expresses this perfectly:

Run, John, run, the law commands,
But gives us neither feet nor hands.
Far better news the gospel brings:
It bids us fly and gives us wings.

One of the best illustrations of how grace makes us fruitful comes from Tullian Tchividjian’s book One Way Love. Tchividjian tells the story of two friends who applied for college. One was accepted but the other was deferred. In the subsequent months both friends took similar classes and had a similar workload.

But the one who had been accepted into college branched out into a number of extracurricular activities. He started a band, got into rock-climbing, and set up a program for under-privileged kids. The other friend also got involved in extra-curricular activities but he did so in the hope of impressing college acceptance boards.

At the end of the semester the student who had been deferred was exhausted while the student who had been accepted was full of energy. Free from the pressure to perform and the need to play it safe, the accepted student wrote papers about topics he was genuinely interested in and attained higher grades. Tchividjian concludes that the fruit of assurance was not laziness but creativity, charity, and fun.

The unconditional love of God gives you wings. It inspires you to take risks and be generous with your life. When you are frolicking in the grace of God, work doesn’t feel like work. It feels like fun.

“Grace is irresponsible for it says we have no responsibility to do anything. We have a duty to serve the Lord.” In the mouth of a mixed-grace preacher, words like responsibility and duty are the cattle-prods of performance-based Christianity. They convey a sense of obligation that leaves you debt-conscious rather than grace-conscious.

Jesus didn’t suffer and die to put you in his debt. He did it to show you how much he loves you. The idea that you are obliged to repay him for his priceless sacrifice is ludicrous. What can you give him in consideration for his grace? There is nothing. The instant you give him anything, it ceases to be grace.

Your only “duty” is to say, “Thank you, Jesus!”

In a mixed-grace environment you will feel the pressure to perform and live up to the expectations of others. But walk under pure grace and you find there is no pressure, only the freedom to be who God made you to be.

Manmade religion will tell you that you have a responsibility to deliver results for the Lord, but your only responsibility is to shine as a dearly-loved child of God.

 

[Gr8grace]

Then you just aren't paying attention.

I believe I am. And am trying to gain wisdom from some that I respect.

Please show me where I am wrong.........We don't have to confess(Acknowledge/name and site/agree with God) when we sin or operate in human good.