The Lord's Prayer

[Grace777x70]

I have said that people are free to pray to their Father as they want to. I never said for anyone to NOT pray the prayer in the form that it is in. So, either deal honestly or continue to be deceitful. I'll just ignore the continued condescending attitude by some that love to display it.

People can pray it 100 times a day if they like. I just find it interesting that there is no mention of this " we must forgive in order to be forgiven" in an epistles.

If our forgiveness hinged on this in the new Covenant - wouldn't it be mentioned at least once in an epistle written to the church? I mean - after all - if we are not forgiven - do we go to hell?

Answer this question above for yourself.

I am saying that in the New Covenant we have the forgiveness of sins because of these truths below. If you don't believe it in - that's your business.

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whomwe have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

 

[followjesus]

What I am saying is that the gospel message of the forgiveness of sins is based on the New Covenant after Jesus died on the cross. It's His blood that brought our redemption - the forgiveness of sins and it is all based on Christ's work. I have said numerous times that the true Christian will forgive because of the new nature that is in them.

Ephesians 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

thats a part of what the Gospel is bruce no one is saying different, the thing is though Forgiveness is based on Jesus entirely. when He gave His Life for us, it didnt change what He said, through His suffering for our sins, we have to also accept what He said, Hoiw He said it for the reason that it was His pain, His suffering, His drops or rather streams of Blood. His word is equally important there is Grace and there is truth Both apply and both are essential. what you are missing old friend, is that His words are powerful.

when you see Him say " forgive and you will be forgiven, do not and you will not be forgiven" that is not meant to condemn an unfogiving christian, its meant to make them forgiving because whatever Jesus did for us, is what we are to do to others. The Son of God teaches us to BE children of God. the words are important because they go into your Mind, when you remain in them they then shape your thinking. an unforgiving person, needs to Hear it like He said it and believe it, thats How faith fixes the things that are wrong in us all. His death is the same, its not the gospel without the " cross" nor without the empty tomb, nor without His promise of the spirit, nor NOR without His teachings and sayings, God said exactly what Jesus spoke in the Gospel and made it clear that is not negotiable and we have no place disregarding it


it seems like beforehand " well its tough for me to forgive so that will condemn me" but then when you understand its Gods pure word, there is power when faith is present and Gods Word is present. or maybe " i have a big bank account, and i dont think i need to be giving anything to the poor" thats the same, when a greedy person hears that, because they believe in the One who said it, there is power that changes those things in us. Hos doctrine is perfect and it doesnt condemn, it teaches but we have to take it as is as He spoke, Just like we take His death for us, we take His word FOR us


bless ya buddy im gonna bow out of this I hope eventually you and I can find a common faith to grow togethr in, but I will never part from Jesus words, I hope at some point you will come into them otherwise theres an irreconcilable void between us. ps. I actually care for you pray alot, even though we never seem to agree I just really want you to see that we are taught to be careful in who we believe and we have a true North in the Holy Bible, that is the 4 Goapels they include His cross all He did on it, How He walked and spoke and acted, and all He was teaching us, the Only begotten, teaching the Children of God and His words arent something we have no power to do, they Have power to work in us to cleanse and change things were falling short in. dont gotta be flawless, but we do Have to believe the Lord Jesus Word.


romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

we are conformed to His image because of Faith in the Word, were learning to be children Like Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

The forgiveness of sins is the gospel message. All sins except for the sin of unbelief in Christ's sacrifice is done away with at the cross.

Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. This truth "conflicts" with our church teachings but its time to be preaching the true gospel so that people can be truly free.

This is the ministry that we have now in the New Covenant.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

If we understood what spiritual circumcision is where the body of flesh is "cut away" ( Co. 2:11 ) from the new creation in Christ - the new man of the heart - then we would be able to see why He has removed sin from us as far as east is from the west.

Then we would understand Romans 8:9 which says "But you are in in the flesh but in the spirit - if Christ be in you."

Then we would understand 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 where it says that the one born of God "cannot sin" because he is born of God. This cannot sin is in the present tense which means a sin done now whether once or a million times.

Some have watered it down to say "does not continuously sin" because they don't know what to do with it because all Christians still sin from time to time.

But sin is called doing the deeds of the body ( Rom. 8:13 ) - it is never called "sinning in our spirit where Christ is one spirit with us".

The knowledge of this truth has led me to live a holier life then I ever dreamed possible. I am only sharing it with others here . What they do with it - is between them and their Lord and Father.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

We are forgiven for PAST sins, not future sins. 2 Peter 1:9: "[FONT=&quot]But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]forgetting that they have been cleansed from their [/FONT][FONT=&quot]past[/FONT][FONT=&quot] sins." There is not one verse in the entire Bible that pronounces us forgiven for future sins. I challenge you to find one.[/FONT]

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

We are forgiven for past sins when we come to Christ, not future sins. Future sins are forgiven when confess/repent of them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Does knowing that in Christ we have the forgiveness of sins because of His blood - does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!

It makes us run to our Father and to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace and mercy.


Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.

The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror.

We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.

He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.

As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

So if Jesus said something in the Gospels and it's not in the Epistles, it can't be trusted. Do I interpret you correctly?

You said: "I just find it interesting that there is no mention of this " we must forgive in order to be forgiven" in an epistles."

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

Find me one verse in the Bible that says we're forgiven for all FUTURE sins.

Does knowing that in Christ we have the forgiveness of sins because of His blood - does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!

It makes us run to our Father and to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace and mercy.


Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.

The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror.

We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.

He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.

As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.

 

[Grace777x70]

I just find it interesting that there is no mention of this " we must forgive in order to be forgiven" in an epistles.

If our forgiveness hinged on this in the New Covenant - wouldn't it be mentioned at least once in an epistle written to the church? I mean - after all - if we are not forgiven - do we go to hell?

Answer this question above for ourselves. I know that if my eternal destination was at stake here - I would think one apostle would have mentioned it at least once. But it doesn't exist.

Instead we have numerous scriptures saying to forgive "just as " God has forgiven you in Christ. Paul in a few places exhorts us to "put on the new man in Christ'.

The new creation which is joined as one spirit with the Lord will always forgive because the Forgiver lives in us.

The principle of the kingdom of God in the New Covenant after the cross and resurrection is - We love because He first loved us. We forgive because He first forgave us.

In Him - we have redemption through His blood - the forgiveness of sins - according to His grace. Eph. 1:7

I'll just leave it at that and let people make up their own minds on this.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have said that people are free to pray to their Father as they want to. I never said for anyone to NOT pray the prayer in the form that it is in. So, either deal honestly or continue to be deceitful. I'll just ignore the continued condescending attitude by some that love to display it.

People can pray it 100 times a day if they like. I just find it interesting that there is no mention of this " we must forgive in order to be forgiven" in an epistles.

If our forgiveness hinged on this in the new Covenant - wouldn't it be mentioned at least once in an epistle written to the church? I mean - after all - if we are not forgiven - do we go to hell?

Answer this question above for yourself.

I am saying that in the New Covenant we have the forgiveness of sins because of these truths below. If you don't believe it in - that's your business.

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whomwe have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

The above scripture speak of the forgiveness of sins in the New Covenant. We can either believe them or not. The choice is ours.

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

You evidently did not read my question to you:
So if Jesus said something in the Gospels and it's not in the Epistles, it can't be trusted. Do I interpret you correctly?

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

Earlier you said:
"1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
· have been forgiven = perfect passive
· perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time."
- - - - - - -

You actually make my point and destroy your own!

Perfect tense in Greek:
“The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.”
This is from: Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

So … a completed action (we have been forgiven) and the effect of us being forgiven is enjoyed in the present. What we are enjoying in the present is past tense forgiveness of past sins! For you to interpret “have been forgiven” as being forgiven of all future sins without repentance is a gross, and I mean, a gross misinterpretation, especially in light of 2 Peter 1:9 – “But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.”

 

[terry_newyork_usa]

John 13:10 - "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean." Does "has bathed" mean the cleansing when we first came to Christ and were born again? And what does it mean we're bathed "except for his feet"? And if are feet are dirty, how are out feet cleansed?

 

[Grace777x70]

Ephesians 5:25-27 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

[SUP]27 [/SUP] that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

The Lord cleanses us by the washing of the water of the word. The word that He uses is the verse before it " Christ loves us and He gave Himself up for her".

Hearing of this "word" of the finished work of Christ for us because of His love for us - cleanses us.

Here is how we are transformed.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The true way of transformation in Christ is by "beholding" the glory of the Lord as in a mirror. When we see the glory of the Lord we are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

"Transformed" is in the passive mood which mean the Holy Spirit changes us to reveal the life of Christ that is in us outwardly so that others can see Christ. We participate with the Spirit of God within us in this.

This "putting on of Christ" is paramount in order for others to see the real Christ that is in us. This being transformed is seen as renewing the mind to the truth of Christ and all that He has done. Romans 12:2

He has completely and unconditionally given Himself over to you and He has revealed His love in the Lord Jesus Christ. Does this want to make us go out and sin all we want? No, a thousand times No!

It makes our hearts melt in love for Him as we see Him for who He truly is and run to the One who loves us and gave His life for us. We have died and our true life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to You and did not conceal my iniquity. I said," I will confess my transgressions to the LORD," and You took away the guilt of my sin. Selah

 

[CherieR]

I have said that people are free to pray to their Father as they want to. I never said for anyone to NOT pray the prayer in the form that it is in. So, either deal honestly or continue to be deceitful. I'll just ignore the continued condescending attitude by some that love to display it.

People can pray it 100 times a day if they like. I just find it interesting that there is no mention of this " we must forgive in order to be forgiven" in an epistles.

If our forgiveness hinged on this in the new Covenant - wouldn't it be mentioned at least once in an epistle written to the church? I mean - after all - if we are not forgiven - do we go to hell?

Answer this question above for yourself.

I am saying that in the New Covenant we have the forgiveness of sins because of these truths below. If you don't believe it in - that's your business.

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whomwe have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

Yes we are forgiven and that knowledge of forgiveness in Christ enables us to forgive. The person who refuses to forgive either needs to know how much Christ has forgiven him/her or does not belong to Christ. He that loves not knows not God for God is love. See 1 John 4:7-8. Forgiveness is all about love.

 

[loveme1]

I have been baptized into the body of Christ and I also pray in tongues more then I pray in my native tongue now that I am retired.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Holy Spirit Baptism". That has different meanings to different people.

Where would you get the idea that I have nor received the Holy Spirit Baptism yet from?

By your own statement where you ask 6-7 times a day one...

I consider you have received water Baptism?

When you receive the Holy Spirit Baptism you will truly know you have there is no denying it. It is being made New inwardly.

You will see, hear and understand... you will be guided and comforted.

It truly is Amazing Grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes we are forgiven and that knowledge of forgiveness in Christ enables us to forgive. The person who refuses to forgive either needs to know how much Christ has forgiven him/her or does not belong to Christ. He that loves not knows not God for God is love. See 1 John 4:7-8. Forgiveness is all about love.

Well said! We love because He first loved us!

Without Him - we can do nothing. But we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. What a mystery!

Colossians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

 

[Grace777x70]

By your own statement where you ask 6-7 times a day one...

I consider you have received water Baptism?

When you receive the Holy Spirit Baptism you will truly know you have there is no denying it. It is being made New inwardly.

You will see, hear and understand... you will be guided and comforted.

It truly is Amazing Grace.

I said that I ask the Father give unto me eyes to see and ears to hear what He has for me when I read or listen to teachings on the Lord Jesus Christ so that He will be revealed to me.

I was made "new" the day I knelt by my bed and told Jesus I believed that He died for me. The next day - everything was "alive" and full of life. I was born-again and I knew it and so did everyone else around me.

Yes, I was water baptized too and also filled with the Holy Spirit and regularly pray with my spirit in other tongues. Do you pray in tongues too? I love it. It build me up.

 

[loveme1]

The Holy Spirit does not witness against itself.