The "Man of Sin" Prophecies

[Ahwatukee]

Please explain to me where the 1000 year reign comes in...because if HE comes and destroys satan by the brightness of HIS coming, then there is no 1000 year reign...when satan will be let loose once more?

Not only that, but since Jesus' return to the earth to end the age initiates the thousand years, then we would have already gone beyond it and would be in the eternal state with the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

 

[miknik5]

The Spirit of Christ the teaching Holy Spirit of God .

One and the same..

 

[iamsoandso]

It would seem you are seeing things that are not there.

The mark is the mark of Cain (restless wander no Sabbath rest) the man of sin . No faith in God that alone come from hearing God and believing . Cain resisted the words of our father and as part of the pagan foundation (out of sight out of mind).He left a dead sacrifice. Plowed Abel his brother the first martyr under the clay of the field of blood . .the 30 pieces of silver funeral arrangement. Same field of blood Judas the man of sin ended up in.

Esau a man of sin had the same mark. . no value in the things not seen. "fools". No rest in their sufferings. No future hope .

Again if the mark/image worship referred to in Revelation 13 is the "mark of Cain" then the 7 headed beast, it's horns,it's image and mark would then have had to existed prior to the birth of Adams son Cain but the Scriptures state that they received no kingdom as yet and that the beast was in the pit and would ascend out of it several thousand years after Cain's life.

 

[Yahshua]

Restraining is what he is doing. How could it be anyone but the Holy Spirit. He is restrainer the one who holds the key to the gates of hell .He lets..." or restrains...".Binding and loosening.

Because there is only one who is powerful enough to hold back (restrain) the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed until his proper time and that is the Spirit of God.

When I was younger in my walk I was first told this "he" was the Holy Spirit and then expected to read the text with that in mind. I have a feeling it was the same with you two: someone first told you and then you read the text with that in mind. In other words, I was given the solution (i.e. "solve for the variable") and then expected to work backward to prove it. But when we do this as humans we have a tendency to force proofs and break basic rules. We make this mistake in math and in reading.

So instead of asking, "who else could it be but the Holy Spirit", adding words and plausible reasoning to defend that answer, can't we presuppose we're new believers living in Thessalonica who don't know who it is, and then see if reading the text - following basic rules of grammar & writing - leads us to the Holy Spirit without needing to add to what's being said?

The truth will remain the truth regardless of how we get there, so if we still conclude it's the Holy Spirit then all the better.

 

[Yahshua]

That is why I was pointing this out(your OP and the post I quoted) in that it would mean that you see some things having the stone cast at them before they existed(ad70). Then you see it divided into two legs(east and west/empires),and the stone cast at it when it first began. then that same stone being cast at at the ten kingdoms before they became kingdoms.(wrath before the entire beast exist)

In the post I quoted you said Covid-19 is a part of that same wrath of God being poured out but it is being caught by the young and old whether they are Catholic or none Catholic but also those who are infant children who do not buy or sell and do not worship any God as yet and so are innocent. So bare in mind that in the Revelation it states several times that it is poured out on those who received the mark,worship the image ect. not the innocent (only those who commit the sin) .

With respect, there are a few assumptions you're making that I differ with so we seem to be crossing wires....that's not to say we should agree in our positions but I'm trying to avoid confusion. So in order to get on the same page, can you clarify a few things for me:

1. Do you believe people will stop having children at some point in the end-times or do you believe wrath will not fall on the children of the wicked along with those wicked?

2. Do you believe all children will be raptured to heaven before the Almighty's wrath?

3. Where do you believe we currently are in eschatology?


----my position----

- I believe 70AD was the start of the time of the great tribulation of the Jews, where they'd be persecuted for many days. No stone in 70AD.

- I believe we are currently well past the two legs of iron and have been living through the 10-toed kingdoms since the fall of both sides of the Roman empire, so for at least 1000+ years. No heavenly stone when the 10-toed kingdoms began.

- I believe the man of sin (the office of Papacy) is the little horn of the beast of Daniel 7 and has existed since 538AD, who wasn't loosed until Rome (which used the symbol of the red Dragon on its banner, by the way) - the legs of iron - was defeated. He, the man of sin, the beast of the sea then ruled, unchecked, for 1,260 years persecuting saints (Jews and believing gentiles alike) until he was wounded in 1798. Still within the time of 10-toed nations. Still no heavenly stone here.

- His wound was healed in 1929, but by then the beast of the earth had risen in 1776 and had now assumed world-ruling leadership power, establishing the world monetary system that everyone uses for commerce, without which no one can buy or sell. He also developed "firepower" from the air. Still within the 10-toed kingdoms. Still no heavenly stone for hundreds of years.

...But our generation is the generation which is now witnessing the heavenly stone falling to smash those kingdoms, as the nations of the world enter into THEIR tribulation. The stone was meant to smash and then grow into a great mountain. This is where I believe we are. Right at the cusp. "The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOMING the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ."

 

[Yahshua]

First of all, you have to understand who Mystery, Babylon the great is, which is not the church. You won't fine the word church used anymore after the end of chapter 3 and that because Chapter 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up. After this the word ekklesia is never used again until chapter 22:16.

God gives us clues in His word as to who Mystery, Babylon the great is:

* The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Rome was literally built on and is famous for her seven hills

* The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

At the time that John was receiving this information Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth

* The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.

Purple and scarlet are the exact colors word by the bishops and cardinals of Roman Catholicism

View attachment 216169 View attachment 216170 View attachment 216171

The woman who rides the beast aka Mystery, Babylon the great, is the Roman Catholic church.

The reference to "come out of her my people" is God calling those who belong to Him to come out from this false religious system before He has the beast and the ten kings destroy her with fire so that no once can ever inhabit that city again.

Once the antichrist/beast is revealed, he will empower the office of the pope and the Roman Catholic church with the power that she has desired. The office of the pope believes that every human should come under his authority and belong to the RCC. Anyone who doesn't will be a heretic to them.

Babylon the great is hiding in plain sight and is advertising who she really is with that Idolatrous Egyptian Obelisk sitting out in the middle of St. Peter's square.

They have and are deceiving over 1.2 billion people by looking Christian. All one has to do a cursory look at what she is teaching to see that she is a counterfeit

I have no problem with this view, Ahwatukee.

I would only point out that scripture says the whole world would be deceived. Mystery Babylon is MASSIVE, sitting atop a 7-headed beast. We know that 7 is the number of completion/perfection. So this is a perfected system of deception with multiple facets to it. What began as the Roman Catholic Church has expanded and permeated absolutely everything...long before we were ever born.

There is a multitude of doctrines and practices that today's Christian still follow that came directly from RCC and not from the scriptures whatsoever...but this is getting into a doctrinal discussion, which isn't the point of this thread, so I'll leave it here.

 

[Yahshua]

Please explain to me where the 1000 year reign comes in...because if HE comes and destroys satan by the brightness of HIS coming, then there is no 1000 year reign...when satan will be let loose once more?

Scripture says the Messiah comes and destroys the "man of sin", not satan. Satan is bound for 1000 years after the "man of sin" (i.e. "the beast") is destroyed. Satan is then loosed after 1000 years to deceive the world one last time for the Gog-Magog final battle.

Satan isn't the "man of sin" but gives that "man" his authority.

 

[azamzimtoti]

The woman who rides the beast aka Mystery, Babylon the great, is the Roman Catholic church.

No it ain't - this is where your problems lie, incorrectly identifying the whore just as David Hunt did in his book.

The whore is apostate Israel/Jerusalem of the 1st century:

(Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!)

(Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.)

(Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.)

(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.)

(Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.)

Why would the apostles and prophets be told to rejoice over the destruction of the RC church when none of the blood of the apostles and prophets was "found in her"?

 

[Yahshua]

Please also remember that CHRIST said NOW IS THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD CAST OUT...NOW IS JUDGMENT UPON THE WORLD...
GOD by sending HIS SON, shut up the mouths of every lying spirit who whispers and mutters anything and everything but THE TRUTH of OUR SALVATION in, by and through CHRIST JESUS...

Satan was defeated at THE CROSS....and he has NO POWER over those who are IN CHRIST JESUS...

He does, however, have power over those who still remain outside THE DOOR and in darkness....who listen to anything and everything but THE TESTIMONY of GOD.

Well how does the Almighty judge? By allowing satan to devour them, right?

Satan is the dog of judgment and testing. When the Almighty wants to judge or test, satan is allowed to do what he does (because the Almighty tempts no man to sin). So casting out satan from heaven = The Almighty's judgment upon the world...why...because satan was cast to the world having great wrath. There was no more place in heaven found for satan. He was literally removed from his home and position, unwillingly.

When the Messiah said "the prince of this world is cast out" (John 12:31) he meant "from heaven to earth", and he said this when he was about to begin his great work of The Passion, as you point out.

So if we know this is exactly what happened to satan when the Messiah was crucified & ascended to heaven, we can perfectly sync this event with Revelation 12 where we read the dragon was cast out of heaven and began chasing the "woman" who gave birth to the manchild (The Messiah). But when he fails to swallow her up, the dragon gives his power to the beast that rises from the sea in Revelation 13, the "man of sin". The "man of sin" then begins to persecute the seed of the woman: the saints.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 we read that the "man of sin" is loosed with all of satan's power of lying signs and wonders.

Satan is the spirit that looses the "man of sin" upon the world.

All three passages synchronize.

 

[Yahshua]

No it ain't - this is where your problems lie, incorrectly identifying the whore just as David Hunt did in his book.

The whore is apostate Israel/Jerusalem of the 1st century:

(Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!)

(Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.)

(Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.)

(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.)

(Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.)

Why would the apostles and prophets be told to rejoice over the destruction of the RC church when none of the blood of the apostles and prophets was "found in her"?

Well, the apostles were killed by Rome and the papacy is responsible for the dark ages and inquisitions that beheaded, hung, burned, and tortured "heretics" throughout the centuries at the height of its power. The RCC is extremely bloody, historically. It was also in the name of the RCC that kings invaded countries and nations during the middle ages. This is why I can't disagree with Ahwatukee's view of them.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Well, the apostles were killed by Rome and the papacy is responsible for the dark ages and inquisitions that beheaded,

As bad as they were it does not make them the whore of John's revelation. Until you correctly identify the whore your understanding will be in error.

(Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.)

 

[Blain]

Hmm... interesting views of mystery babylon. I always thought it was actually a symbolism of America considering how corrupt and sinful it has been become. The quote in God we trust has long been incorrect, over 60 percent of all pornography comes from America we have as a nation left our first love which is what this nation was established on and the statue of liberty is what I thought the women who sat upon the the mountains was but in all honesty The roman Catholic church could also easily fit the bill

 

[miknik5]

Scripture says the Messiah comes and destroys the "man of sin", not satan. Satan is bound for 1000 years after the "man of sin" (i.e. "the beast") is destroyed. Satan is then loosed after 1000 years to deceive the world one last time for the Gog-Magog final battle.

Satan isn't the "man of sin" but gives that "man" his authority.

..Iĺl have to look. There are two similar threads

 

[miknik5]

Okay...That I can accept...as in the lake of fire...that the man of sin, along with the false prophet, will be cast into the lake of fire...and satan will be bound...

Ok...this I can agree with.

Well how does the Almighty judge? By allowing satan to devour them, right?

Satan is the dog of judgment and testing. When the Almighty wants to judge or test, satan is allowed to do what he does (because the Almighty tempts no man to sin). So casting out satan from heaven = The Almighty's judgment upon the world...why...because satan was cast to the world having great wrath. There was no more place in heaven found for satan. He was literally removed from his home and position, unwillingly.

When the Messiah said "the prince of this world is cast out" (John 12:31) he meant "from heaven to earth", and he said this when he was about to begin his great work of The Passion, as you point out.

So if we know this is exactly what happened to satan when the Messiah was crucified & ascended to heaven, we can perfectly sync this event with Revelation 12 where we read the dragon was cast out of heaven and began chasing the "woman" who gave birth to the manchild (The Messiah). But when he fails to swallow her up, the dragon gives his power to the beast that rises from the sea in Revelation 13, the "man of sin". The "man of sin" then begins to persecute the seed of the woman: the saints.

In 2 Thessalonians 2 we read that the "man of sin" is loosed with all of satan's power of lying signs and wonders.

Satan is the spirit that looses the "man of sin" upon the world.

All three passages synchronize.

No that isn´t what HE meant when HE said,now is the prince of this world cast out...now is judgment upon the world...for, if you were to refer to Revelation 12, you will note that satan fell like lightning prior to CHRIST even coming into the world.

 

[Yahshua]

..Iĺl have to look. There are two similar threads

Ok. Yeah, I just came across it in the forum. This thread was specifically to share different views on who the "man of sin" was/is/will be, while that thread seems to be discussing the 2 Thessalonian 2 passage specifically.

 

[Yahshua]

Hmm... interesting views of mystery babylon. I always thought it was actually a symbolism of America considering how corrupt and sinful it has been become. The quote in God we trust has long been incorrect, over 60 percent of all pornography comes from America we have as a nation left our first love which is what this nation was established on and the statue of liberty is what I thought the women who sat upon the the mountains was but in all honesty The roman Catholic church could also easily fit the bill

Well, we may not agree with their titles, but one thing we all may seem to agree on is that these groups are "bad guys" who seem to be in league with each other and against the ways of the Almighty.

 

[miknik5]

It's a good question...but why not say "the Almighty removes His hedge or His Spirit"? Why "he will let until he who let's is taken out of the way"? At no point is the Holy Spirit mentioned by name so how can we attribute any pronouns to him. Only the Messiah, satan, and the man of sin are mentioned as subjects.

So as I read the passage it seems Paul is saying it's the apostasy event - The falling away - that must come first before the day of the Lord...and it's that (& satan work) which is holding back the "man of sin" from being revealed.

Now when most read "revealed" we interpret it as "comes on the scene" or "appearing". But I'd like you to consider for a moment that "revealed" means - at its core - "exposed/uncovered". Notice how it reads:


2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Then Paul continues with a description of what this man would do, and then Paul says...


2 Thess 2:6-7
6 And NOW ye know WHAT withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth ALREADY work:


Paul just now shared what withholds the man of sin. So if we take out the parenthetical side info, here's the message Paul gives:


Q: What is keeping the man of sin from being exposed until it's time?
A: The apostasy event that has to come first; the falling away. That is the "what" that's keeping the man of sin from being exposed...because "secret/hidden sinfulness" is ALREADY hard at work.

Paul continues...


2 Thess 2:7-8
7 ...only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed..."


So from the context, the next question is:

Q: he "lets" what?
A: he "lets" this "mystery of iniquity" (i.e. this secret/covert/hidden sinfulness) that's already in full swing in Paul's time; he lets it continue until he is taken out of the way.


So who's the "he" who let's this happen?

Remember that satan's trade is deception. As long as he's around people will be deceived to believe any lie is the truth; that any wickedness is righteousness; that this man of sin is a genuine man of God. He must be taken out of the way so this wicked man of sin can finally be revealed/uncovered/exposed for who he is...until then, the "man of sin" will continue to deceive people.

Paul then says the wicked man will be revealed and destroyed with the Master's arrival.


2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Paul continues...


2 Thess 2:9
9 ...whose coming is after the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness


Now I know the prevailing meaning of these passages has been drilled into us, but if we simply follow the context, ask yourself:

Q: Whose coming is after satan's deceptive work?
A: His - The Messiah's - bright coming is after (or behind) satan's deceptive work

Like you pointed out, those of Thessalonica were afraid they missed the resurrection and regathering. So Paul was giving them the order to events:

- First, the secret iniquity was already fomenting.

- Next is the great falling away must happen.

- And then, when satan is taken out of the way, the man of sin - who Paul already mentioned when he was with them personally - will be exposed with the brightness of the Messiah's coming


It's through satan's authority that this man of sin will deceive many into believing he's a man of God. But this man can't deceive many if he's already revealed to be the "man of sin". It's a bit pointless to the whole game of deception to reveal the deceiver beforehand, you know?

If we know that the "man of sin" is also called "the beast", then I ask myself who gave/gives his own authority to this beast (essentially unleashing him on the world) after he fails to destroy the manchild and the woman himself, per Revelation 13? Of course, it's satan.

We have the passage that records the Messiah saying, "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30). Also the passage Matthew 4:8-9 says, "Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 'All this I will give You,' he said, 'if You will fall down and worship me.'” And satan wasn't corrected by the Messiah when he did this.

So I fully agree that satan has no power unless it's given to him, but it would seem he was already given this power, at least as far back as the beginning of the Messiah's ministry. The Messiah acknowledges satan's authority on earth, as well as Paul in this letter.

----

Now from the historicist pov, this apostasy has since occurred and is still in full swing with the man of sin doing much damage - with satan's authority - concealed as a man of God...while I think preterists believe he's already come and gone...and then futurists believe he's still to come...

But regardless of position, I believe this is what the passage is explaining; that it's satan and his deception that must be taken out of the way in order to EXPOSE the "man of sin".

Forgive the length.

CHRIST also said, for judgment I have come so that in seeing they will not see and in hearing they will not hear...lest they should understand with their heart, turn and HE should heal them...and HE also said, that in them, (those who do not believe), is the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled. GOD, by sending HIS SON into the world, shut up the mouth of satan and his lies...for many will profess to have GOD, but deny THE SON...and those who do, are clearly made manifest that they do not HAVE THE GOD. and FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST...therefore, they unknowingly serving another father, who was always a liar.....


Now is judgment upon the world, and if I be lifted up, I shall draw all men to myself...

Satan can mutter all he chooses, but there is ONLY ONE TRUTH, sir...if a man does not believe it, he is serving (whether knowingly or unknowingly) another father...

 

[miknik5]

Ok. Yeah, I just came across it in the forum. This thread was specifically to share different views on who the "man of sin" was/is/will be, while that thread seems to be discussing the 2 Thessalonian 2 passage specifically.

I think I already responded to this I know that satan will try to imitate the HOLY TRINITY...but, because he can not manifest himself fully in one, he will reveal himself in piecemeal: hence, the false prophet and the beast

 

[miknik5]

Those in CHRIST< I can not even fathom how they can fall away....

 

[miknik5]

When I was younger in my walk I was first told this "he" was the Holy Spirit and then expected to read the text with that in mind. I have a feeling it was the same with you two: someone first told you and then you read the text with that in mind. In other words, I was given the solution (i.e. "solve for the variable") and then expected to work backward to prove it. But when we do this as humans we have a tendency to force proofs and break basic rules. We make this mistake in math and in reading.

So instead of asking, "who else could it be but the Holy Spirit", adding words and plausible reasoning to defend that answer, can't we presuppose we're new believers living in Thessalonica who don't know who it is, and then see if reading the text - following basic rules of grammar & writing - leads us to the Holy Spirit without needing to add to what's being said?

The truth will remain the truth regardless of how we get there, so if we still conclude it's the Holy Spirit then all the better.

And it was the opposite for me...no one told me, but HIM...and it was in my early walk, and I felt HIS PRESENCE and heard HIS VOICE more clearly then, than I do now...and because I know what I learned and who I learned it from, I will NEVER change my stance.