The Millennium literal or symbolic?
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Years ago I studied Revelation with regards to the 4 different eschatological views. I was in a class taught by the pastors of the church. 1 view was non Biblical which is the one that has 2 seperate resurrections. The church had three pastors and they differed on which was correct. Each had chosen a different view. The problem is that Revelation is a type of book that is extremely difficult to understand what the actual future will be like. The symbolism makes it hard to know. God did this on purpose.
Well,,,I'm just smooth stumped here Locutus... Lets say for instance that in Revelation 19:20 that the beast and the false prophet don't exist in the mill. kingdom because they are already cast into the lake of fire,,,and the devil from Revelation 20:2 was bound during it's time frame (literal or symbolic?...) and that he (the devil) don't deceive the world until after the mill. Revelation 20;3, then if that guy markus brings it up is it off base or not?
I mean if the beast and the false prophet have already come and then were dealt with prior to the mill. then in all of the reasonable explanations of eschatology should it not be quite reasonable then that the "beast" and his mark and the false prophet be explained before any proceed to the explanation of the millennium kingdom? Is it an unfair question if Markus brings it up also?
I mean if the beast and the false prophet have already come and then were dealt with prior to the mill. then in all of the reasonable explanations of eschatology should it not be quite reasonable then that the "beast" and his mark and the false prophet be explained before any proceed to the explanation of the millennium kingdom? Is it an unfair question if Markus brings it up also?
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I'll give you a few clues here Markus to what the binding of satan entailed:
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Does this ring any bells in regards to the "millenium"?
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Do you think the "soon" of Paul's statement is a dispensational "soon" or a real soon?
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Does this ring any bells in regards to the "millenium"?
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Do you think the "soon" of Paul's statement is a dispensational "soon" or a real soon?
I'll give you a few clues here Markus to what the binding of satan entailed:
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Does this ring any bells in regards to the "millenium"?
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Do you think the "soon" of Paul's statement is a dispensational "soon" or a real soon?
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Does this ring any bells in regards to the "millenium"?
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Do you think the "soon" of Paul's statement is a dispensational "soon" or a real soon?
lol,then as it seems you do not regard any of the things I ask as being fulfilled in any way "symbolic", correct? And that in fact you perceive them as being fulfilled "literally" correct?
Which leads me to my being stumped,,,why do you take such a leap to the mill. kingdom being fulfilled "symbolic" and see the others as literal?
It's a biblical "soon". It has not happened yet.
Satan is still the accuser of the brethren (Rev 12:10). He was still able to hinder Paul (1 Thes 2:18) and gave him a thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:7). He still roams about seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet 5:8). He is still the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4). He is still in control of this world (1 John 5:19).
Satan is still the accuser of the brethren (Rev 12:10). He was still able to hinder Paul (1 Thes 2:18) and gave him a thorn in the flesh (2 Cor 12:7). He still roams about seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet 5:8). He is still the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4). He is still in control of this world (1 John 5:19).
What lies behind the symbols was of course fulfilled literally, I have address the rest of your question yet - get ready to leave tomorrow from work.
The symbolic "millenium" was the "rule" of the saints (144k of the 12 tribes) in the 1st century AD.
I've asked before, are these people James is writing to "chopped liver" - James calls then first fruits as does John in the revelation.
Don't you think these "first fruits" had a crucial role in the 1st century?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
Ask yourself this, how can James be speaking to the first fruits in the 1st century AD and also have some folks called first fruits in a supposed future "millennium'?
The symbolic "millenium" was the "rule" of the saints (144k of the 12 tribes) in the 1st century AD.
I've asked before, are these people James is writing to "chopped liver" - James calls then first fruits as does John in the revelation.
Don't you think these "first fruits" had a crucial role in the 1st century?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
Ask yourself this, how can James be speaking to the first fruits in the 1st century AD and also have some folks called first fruits in a supposed future "millennium'?
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
This was literal but John is using some "symbolism" here, can I explain how it worked out. Not yet and maybe never - just as I can't work out how Jesus' resurrection "worked".
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Ok, we know that Jesus saw satan fall, the bottomless pit is figurative of that fall, which with no bottom he could not escape until he was let loose for a little season (war of 66-70 AD)
The time spent in the bottomless pit included the ministry period given to the apostles in the 1st century AD (that he should deceive the nations no more):
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
This was literal but John is using some "symbolism" here, can I explain how it worked out. Not yet and maybe never - just as I can't work out how Jesus' resurrection "worked".
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Ok, we know that Jesus saw satan fall, the bottomless pit is figurative of that fall, which with no bottom he could not escape until he was let loose for a little season (war of 66-70 AD)
The time spent in the bottomless pit included the ministry period given to the apostles in the 1st century AD (that he should deceive the nations no more):
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Just because you agree with him means nothing, has he proven his "case" I think not - do you think after Christ saw satan fall that he still had access to the heavens?
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If he was not cast out, then he can still accuse the brethren day and night and still has the power of death and Christ has not conquered:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
So what you two are effectively claiming is Christ's death has not destroyed him that had the power of death.
But most deny what is also said in Hebrews:
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
This is when the power of satan was crushed as Paul said - soon, not a "biblical" soon but an actual soon.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
I guess Paul should have said "biblically soon" so the Romans would not be expecting this for 1970 years and counting into the future.
Good way to make the words of Paul of none effect. And let's not forget what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation :
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ..................which must shortly come to pass
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
I'll get back to you shortly......
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If he was not cast out, then he can still accuse the brethren day and night and still has the power of death and Christ has not conquered:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
So what you two are effectively claiming is Christ's death has not destroyed him that had the power of death.
But most deny what is also said in Hebrews:
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
This is when the power of satan was crushed as Paul said - soon, not a "biblical" soon but an actual soon.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
I guess Paul should have said "biblically soon" so the Romans would not be expecting this for 1970 years and counting into the future.
Good way to make the words of Paul of none effect. And let's not forget what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation :
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ..................which must shortly come to pass
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
I'll get back to you shortly......
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Just because you agree with him means nothing, has he proven his "case" I think not - do you think after Christ saw satan fall that he still had access to the heavens?
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If he was not cast out, then he can still accuse the brethren day and night and still has the power of death and Christ has not conquered:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
So what you two are effectively claiming is Christ's death has not destroyed him that had the power of death.
But most deny what is also said in Hebrews:
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
This is when the power of satan was crushed as Paul said - soon, not a "biblical" soon but an actual soon.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
I guess Paul should have said "biblically soon" so the Romans would not be expecting this for 1970 years and counting into the future.
Good way to make the words of Paul of none effect. And let's not forget what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation :
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ..................which must shortly come to pass
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
I'll get back to you shortly......
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
If he was not cast out, then he can still accuse the brethren day and night and still has the power of death and Christ has not conquered:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
So what you two are effectively claiming is Christ's death has not destroyed him that had the power of death.
But most deny what is also said in Hebrews:
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
This is when the power of satan was crushed as Paul said - soon, not a "biblical" soon but an actual soon.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
I guess Paul should have said "biblically soon" so the Romans would not be expecting this for 1970 years and counting into the future.
Good way to make the words of Paul of none effect. And let's not forget what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation :
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ..................which must shortly come to pass
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
I'll get back to you shortly......
Is 1Chorinthinians 15:26 written in future or present tense?,,, and does your eschatology agree with it? Paul saw it as future,,,meaning it was not present tense...
Greetings Locutus!
First of all, there is nothing in the context of the scripture that would suggest a temporary binding of Satan in the Abyss. If you will notice it states that he will bound for a thousand years and that he will be let out for a short season at the end of the thousand years. In addition, the scripture states that while Satan is bound in the Abyss, he will not be able to deceive the nations during that entire thousand years, which means that he will have no exposure to the surface of the earth and its inhabitants during that entire thousand years.
According to scripture at the end of the thousand years he will be released from the Abyss and will perform one last act of rebellion and following that he will be thrown into the lake of firer. All of this is plainly stated in the scripture.
First of all, there is nothing in the context of the scripture that would suggest a temporary binding of Satan in the Abyss. If you will notice it states that he will bound for a thousand years and that he will be let out for a short season at the end of the thousand years. In addition, the scripture states that while Satan is bound in the Abyss, he will not be able to deceive the nations during that entire thousand years, which means that he will have no exposure to the surface of the earth and its inhabitants during that entire thousand years.
According to scripture at the end of the thousand years he will be released from the Abyss and will perform one last act of rebellion and following that he will be thrown into the lake of firer. All of this is plainly stated in the scripture.