The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[Bookends]

Because if our behavior jeopardized salvation we would have clear, no non-sense,unambiguous language that told us that. It is putting a believer who is a part of His body in the Lake of fire for all eternity. BIG, MAJOR,consequences. God, who is just and righteous would not leave His Children in some constant state of confusion pertaining to His salvation.

Eternal life is a gift.

His gifts are IRREVOCABLE.

If we could lose salvation our God, the Lord Jesus Christ who is JUST and RIGHTEOUS would PLAINLY tell us we could lose eternal life, lose salvation, His gift is revocable.

And He NEVER tells us this.

but the pharisees of old would tell us this.

Colossians 1:21-23 -
[h=3]Reconciled in Christ[/h]19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[JGIG]

1. It doesn't take an act of the will to remain in covenant with GOD, but believers can definitely walk contrary to Christ (not do his will) by an act of their will. So it really depends on what you mean by the term abiding in Christ.

The one who says [that he] abides in him ought also to walk just as that one walked. 1 John 2:6

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 John 2:28-29 ​

Abiding is where you live. If you aren't living in Christ, where are you living?

If you aren't living in Christ, you AREN'T living! You're dead in your sins.

And once born again, there is no going back and forth - alive in Christ - dead in sin - alive in Christ.

The Scriptures you posted above do not prove that because one is not doing the will of Christ that one is not abiding in Christ. They are still living - abiding - in Christ. Them making dumb decisions in choosing to sin doesn't put them into a state of spiritual death, which is being outside of (not abiding in) Christ. They're miserable, because they're acting contrary to who they are in Christ, but they're not spiritually dead.

.2. We don't have to do anything to remain in covenant with GOD, so in that sense resting in Christ and abiding in Christ are synonymous. We are in that regard resting in Christ's finished work.

However, efforts on our part to remain set apart from the world and sin cannot not be considered rest. So again, it really depends on what you mean by the term abiding in Christ.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:11-12

​

We're set apart from the world because we're in Christ. It isn't because of what we do or don't do that we're set apart; it's because of Whose we are that we're set apart.


​

3. Physical circumcision could become uncircumcision through disobedience.

For circumcision is of value if you do the law, but if you should be a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Romans 2:25​

What Paul was telling Israel is this: There is a New Covenant - If you transgress, there is only one way, through faith in Christ, to be right with God. Physical circumcision doesn't count anymore - a circumcision of the heart is the only valid circumcision now, and that by the obedience of faith in Christ.

Context - Romans 1:16 - salvation is by faith from first to last for both Jews and Gentiles. Romans 2 is an indictment chapter for Jews and Gentiles alike - all fall short, with the balance of Romans detailing the Gospel of Grace, how righteousness is attained (only as a gift through faith in Christ), and a lot of teaching believers who they are in Christ. In Romans, Paul lays out the

>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.​

In the same way, spiritual circumcision can become uncircumcision through disobedience.

​Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

Do a quick study on the will of God after the Cross - it's pretty simple - believe in the One God has sent and love one another. Give thanks.

And let's look at not only Matthew 7:21 and include at least the next two verses:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (from Matthew 7)​

If Christ is talking about believers, there, then He is lying, because not only does Christ know the believer according to the Scriptures, but is one with them! No, this passage is talking about people who have NOT believed on the One God has sent for their salvation, but have relied on their own works, done even in His name . . . but they have not believed in HIM.

4. Christians can only be judged for their sins if they unrepentantly deny the lord, either in words or deeds.

if we endure, we will also reign with [him]; if we deny [him], he also will deny us; 2 Timothy 2:12
​

You're posting excerpts, not passages, to support your theology. Read the WHOLE passage:

​

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering,bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him; (see Galatians 2:20 - have you died with Him? and do you now live with Him?)

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; (we endure because we live with Him)

if we deny him, he also will deny us; (those who do not believe - Christ will deny - is that the believer, according to Scripture?)

13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. (He cannot deny Himself because He is in us and we in Him, according to the Scriptures \o/)

(from 2 Timothy 2)​

The passage is a series of If/Then statements - If you are in Christ, what of the above applies? He is in you if you are in Christ - will He then deny Himself? Ever? Will He ever leave you or forsake you? If you wander off, He's right there with you - ALWAYS - even when you sin!

Is that not a better motivation to avoid sinning than fearing that He will leave you if you do sin? If you believe that when you sin Christ breaks fellowship with you, if He's not around anymore, why not just keep sinning? Can you see how that mentality can actually feed into a pattern of sinning rather than teach them to say no to sinning?

Let me put it this way: If you think you have to not sin for Jesus/God to be willing to be with you, but if you do sin, He won't be willing to be with you, you feel like when you screw up, He's left you to your own willpower to dig yourself out of the hole you've gotten yourself into.

But that's NOT what happens when we sin. He STAYS with us. He is an ever-present help when we're in trouble.

Hebrews 4 puts it so beautifully:

​

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

12 For the word (Logos is the Greek word used here, Jesus, Himself) of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.​

To the pure all [things are] pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing [is] pure, but both their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny [him], [because they] are detestable and disobedient, and unfit for every good deed. Titus 1:15-16

Defiled and what?

UNBELIEVING. This passage is talking about UNbelievers. Why are you trying to apply it to believers - it's clear that it's NOT speaking of believers!

Thank you for using Scripture - can you see how we've learned to skip over and think certain Scriptures say certain things - but they really don't?

Please take a closer look!

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

The greek structure in Col 1:23 is called the Condition of the first class which means that it is determined as already being fulfilled.

I will give you an example....You go to the bank..I then say to you " IF you went to the bank...give me $100. "...so you did go to the bank and that is determined as fulfilled......but I am still waiting for my $100...cough it up!...lol


If so be that ye continue in the faith ([FONT="Gentium" !important][I]ei ge epimenete tēi pistei[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]). [SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled), [/COLOR][/SIZE]with a touch of eagerness in the use of [SIZE=1][COLOR=maroon][FONT="Gentium" !important][I]ge[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE] (at least). [SIZE=1][COLOR=maroon][FONT="Gentium" !important][I]Epi[/I][/FONT][/COLOR] [/SIZE]adds to the force of the linear action of the present tense (continue and then some). [I]Pistei[/I] is in the locative case (in faith).

Word Pictures in the New Testament.


[QUOTE="Bookends, post: 2448433"]Colossians 1:21-23 -
Reconciled in Christ

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mitspa]

Peter repented.

Yes because of Gods Goodness ...but Christ kept Him because He had prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail...Peter would have failed if the grace of Christ had not kept him, even when he rejected the Lord. We stand by grace ...period

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
JGIG,

Your long posts are a headache to respond to. Try breaking them up into individual posts.

Abiding is where you live. If you aren't living in Christ, where are you living?

If you aren't living in Christ, you AREN'T living! You're dead in your sins.

And once born again, there is no going back and forth - alive in Christ - dead in sin - alive in Christ.

The Scriptures you posted above do not prove that because one is not doing the will of Christ that one is not abiding in Christ. They are still living - abiding - in Christ. Them making dumb decisions in choosing to sin doesn't put them into a state of spiritual death, which is being outside of (not abiding in) Christ. They're miserable, because they're acting contrary to who they are in Christ, but they're not spiritually dead.

We're set apart from the world because we're in Christ. It isn't because of what we do or don't do that we're set apart; it's because of Whose we are that we're set apart.


​

What Paul was telling Israel is this: There is a New Covenant - If you transgress, there is only one way, through faith in Christ, to be right with God. Physical circumcision doesn't count anymore - a circumcision of the heart is the only valid circumcision now, and that by the obedience of faith in Christ.

Context - Romans 1:16 - salvation is by faith from first to last for both Jews and Gentiles. Romans 2 is an indictment chapter for Jews and Gentiles alike - all fall short, with the balance of Romans detailing the Gospel of Grace, how righteousness is attained (only as a gift through faith in Christ), and a lot of teaching believers who they are in Christ. In Romans, Paul lays out the

>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.​

Do a quick study on the will of God after the Cross - it's pretty simple - believe in the One God has sent and love one another. Give thanks.

And let's look at not only Matthew 7:21 and include at least the next two verses:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (from Matthew 7)​

If Christ is talking about believers, there, then He is lying, because not only does Christ know the believer according to the Scriptures, but is one with them! No, this passage is talking about people who have NOT believed on the One God has sent for their salvation, but have relied on their own works, done even in His name . . . but they have not believed in HIM.

You're posting excerpts, not passages, to support your theology. Read the WHOLE passage:

​

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering,bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him; (see Galatians 2:20 - have you died with Him? and do you now live with Him?)

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; (we endure because we live with Him)

if we deny him, he also will deny us; (those who do not believe - Christ will deny - is that the believer, according to Scripture?)

13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. (He cannot deny Himself because He is in us and we in Him, according to the Scriptures \o/)

(from 2 Timothy 2)​

The passage is a series of If/Then statements - If you are in Christ, what of the above applies? He is in you if you are in Christ - will He then deny Himself? Ever? Will He ever leave you or forsake you? If you wander off, He's right there with you - ALWAYS - even when you sin!

Is that not a better motivation to avoid sinning than fearing that He will leave you if you do sin? If you believe that when you sin Christ breaks fellowship with you, if He's not around anymore, why not just keep sinning? Can you see how that mentality can actually feed into a pattern of sinning rather than teach them to say no to sinning?

Let me put it this way: If you think you have to not sin for Jesus/God to be willing to be with you, but if you do sin, He won't be willing to be with you, you feel like when you screw up, He's left you to your own willpower to dig yourself out of the hole you've gotten yourself into.

But that's NOT what happens when we sin. He STAYS with us. He is an ever-present help when we're in trouble.

Hebrews 4 puts it so beautifully:

​

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

12 For the word (Logos is the Greek word used here, Jesus, Himself) of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.​

​

Defiled and what?

UNBELIEVING. This passage is talking about UNbelievers. Why are you trying to apply it to believers - it's clear that it's NOT speaking of believers!

Thank you for using Scripture - can you see how we've learned to skip over and think certain Scriptures say certain things - but they really don't?

Please take a closer look!

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

I can understand your view. I personally don't take the view that "everything said " is for me directly. And we all can be influenced by deceiving spirits to some degree or other.

BUT I respect your opinion to be offended by his words...

Jesus words to the religious people were not "very gracious"...I'm a firm believer in not taking some else's medicine.

Here is a great article about taking someone else's medicine when the word of God is preached...like in the certain words of Jesus that He spoke to different groups of people.

Whose Medicine are You Taking? The Dangers of Taking Scripture Out of Context – Escape to Reality

I hope you have a great day and God bless you!

In fact, Grace777, anyone who doesn't accept Rufus' version of grace is meant here. Read Chapter 4 of his book again. I read it just a moment ago. Nowhere in it does he speak of his dealings with people who "were maliciously attacking and slanderously accusing him". He writes about Jesus and the Pharisees and Paul and the Galatians "and the effects of the religious spirit in action". So anyone who does not accept his teaching on grace is affected. It shouldn't bother anyone who isn't a legalist, you say. But anyone who doesn't accept Rufus' view of grace is one, by implication. I accept that you have read and heard this man a lot, Grace. Perhaps you are remembering something he said elsewhere. Either way, none of the words I quoted earlier are exactly full of grace, seasoned with salt, are they? And Colossians 4:6 also applies to Rob Rufus.

 

[PeterJens]

For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
Psalm 69:26

David is complaining that people persecute those the Lord is teaching, as if they have got it wrong.
The prosperity gospel says if you have poverty or illness it is evil, you just have to reach out and claim Gods gift of blessing.
If you do not it is your fault you are where you are.

Walking with the Lord is about ones attitude to circumstance, not the circumstance itself.
David understood this very well. He would call it building character, resilence, self assurance, boldness, patience, faith.

But for these hyper-grace these attributes to the human spirit and soul, have no value. God only blesses, hard times do not exist except from Satan, and conviction of sin is nothing to do with God. What you see in society now is great blessing just leads to indulgence and sin not purity and righteousness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Great job at making the scriptures come alive with the awesomeness of Christ.

A note on circumcision - I listen to a guy talk about "spiritual circumcision " and he said the Lord told him one day.." Tell My people they can go from being uncircumcised to being circumcised but you can not go from being circumcised to being uncircumcised...in My spiritual circumcision of Christ --- it's the same way in the natural circumcision ...can you go back and get that dead and gone foreskin and put in back on?.....the answer is of course not


I firmly believe that if believers could really see what happened to them when we came to Christ ...in the spiritual circumcision of the heart and flesh - called the circumcision of Christ.....then the realities of who we really are now in our union with Christ will revolutionize our walk with the Lord.

Please take a closer look!

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...I noticed that our Lord said that He prayed for Peter. .that his faith would not fail..not that Peter would not fail.. because he did...these are 2 different things..

Yes because of Gods Goodness ...but Christ kept Him because He had prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail...Peter would have failed if the grace of Christ had not kept him, even when he rejected the Lord. We stand by grace ...period

 

[JGIG]

Hi JGIG,

It's been a while!

What preachers? We should name them and show examples of their lack of grace?

Rob Rufus refers to people who don't see grace as he does as "grace haters" in his book Living in the Grace of God (Milton Keynes: Authentic Media, 2007), p. 14, where he says,

"Grace haters are the legalists who will try to intimidate, manipulate and dominate people with a spirit of witchcraft. The religious spirit in them want everyone stereotyped and conformed to their own bondage. They are parrots and puppets, no longer voices for God, but echoes, not pursuing God but pursuing opportunities for position and prestige. They are cloned to act the same, dress the same and speak in the same religious tones. You know where everyone looks the same you can be sure a religious spirit is operating!"

So because I don't share his views I am motivated by the need to "intimidate, manipulate and dominate people" - and do so "with a spirit of witchcraft"! I'm a "parrot" and a "puppet" and I don't pursue God, but am motivated by position and prestige.

It's difficult to imagine less gracious words. What is extraordinary is that they are used by someone apparently "living in the grace of God".

Paul Ellis, in The Gospel in Ten Words, p.147, says that people who don't view grace as he does are preaching a "counterfeit gospel", which "will teach you to fear authority making you a target for tyrants and manipulators." So I'm a tyrant and a manipulator too, evidently.

Perhaps this is the sort of thing Phil had in mind.

I've experienced legalism, and I've seen the control that those in leadership in such congregations wield as they mis-use Scripture. If you have not, then that's great! But Rob is addressing the folks out there who really do behave that way. If he's not describing you, then no worries!

Paul Ellis is right. I've watched it happen to children and adults under legalism. I've watched the fruit of that starting 35 years ago, and grieve with those I love at what their lives have been like under legalism. I'm so grateful that was not my experience - I went to a school where there was legalism, but my home church was a healthy place. God began teaching me about Grace very early on and I'm so thankful for that \o/. Teachers like Rob Rufus, Paul Ellis, Bob George, Andrew Farley, and others are articulating what God has been showing me for many, many years.

Grace does not ignore error - either legalism or license - and Grace is not afraid to call it out. But Grace always does it in a redemptive context, always pointing to Christ and His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who believers are in Him. Both Rob Rufus and Paul Ellis are faithful to do that. Pull quotes out of context if you wish, but the whole of what they teach is in the redemptive context of the Gospel of Grace. Please don't misrepresent them as you have.

I happen to have a copy of 'The Gospel in Ten Words' handy. Here's page 147:

The true Gospel declares that wherever the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - not when you die, not tomorrow, but today. God's will is for you to experience the freedom of heaven here and now.

A true preacher of grace will fight fiercely for your freedom. He will smack down any teaching or doctrine that seeks to deprive you of the life and liberty that are yours in Christ, and he will draw lines in the sand so you can clearly distinguish grace from ungrace. In Short, he will sound just like Paul:
​

Freedom is what we have - Christ has set us free! Stand, then, as free people, and do not allow yourselves to become slaves again. (Galatians 5:1, GNB)​

Here's the test. A counterfeit gospel will make you conscious of some perceived debt to Christ in order to bind you to a lifetime of indentured servitude. However, the true gospel will rip these chains off you by revealing a grace that leaves no debt and a Savior who does the heavy lifting on your behalf. A counterfeit gospel will teach you to fear authority making you a target for tyrants and manipulators. But the true gospel declares, "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23). A counterfeit gospel will imprison you within the confining walls of rules and regulations, but the true gospel proclaims, "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36).

​

Rate your gospel​

So how did your gospel do? If you honestly answered "No" to any of these four questions, ​

[1. Does this gospel cause me to fix my eyes exclusively on Jesus?
2. Does this gospel empower me to overcome sin?
3. Does this gospel release peace and joy?
4. Does this gospel set me free? - listed earlier in that chapter as headings in the chapter]​

then you have been sold a toxic gospel. Discard it before it kills you! But don't shoot the messengers. As someone who used to preach a counterfeit gospel I have nothing but grace for those who still do. Most of them love the Lord just as much as you or I. So love them but don't listen to them - not if they're leading you away from grace.
​

The Paul Ellis who wrote that page strikes a different tone than the Paul Ellis you have attempted to present. I don't have a copy of Rob's book, but I'm guessing the tone there is similarly misrepresented by you. These guys call out legalism, yes, but in the redemptive context of Grace and always pointing people to Christ, His Work, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

I can understand your view.

I find I have to read Grace7x77 your statements a lot of times to understand what you are saying.
The pharisees of this world are evil and any objection is just their religious lost heart rising up in anger.

You fail to recognise the true work of God in the believers heart, and condemn those who testify to it.
This makes you an enemy of the Lord and what the Father is doing in the world. Whatever else you think you are doing, judgement walks in your shadow, awaiting a time when it will fall.

 

[JGIG]

.
JGIG,

Your long posts are a headache to respond to. Try breaking them up into individual posts.

I responded to each of the four points you made.

The post is organized into those four sections.

Take an aspirin and give it another look .

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...it-new-modern-hyper-grace-54.html#post2448468

-JGIG

 

[PeterJens]

​

Rate your gospel​

So how did your gospel do? If you honestly answered "No" to any of these four questions, ​

[1. Does this gospel cause me to fix my eyes exclusively on Jesus?
2. Does this gospel empower me to overcome sin?
3. Does this gospel release peace and joy?
4. Does this gospel set me free? - listed earlier in that chapter as headings in the chapter]​

then you have been sold a toxic gospel.​

This is truly odd. The gospel is being broken down into experiential terms of how it effects you, not its content. This should worry any bible believing christian. Ofcourse people have their own emotional spin on how they react to the gospel but it has never been measured in this regard. Those who spread this type of message are just spreading condemnation of peoples approach and subjective appreciation of how it is worked out. But the aim is to condemn those who teach simple faith as lost and ignorant of saving faith.​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I responded to each of the four points you made.

The post is organized into those four sections.

Take an aspirin and give it another look .

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...it-new-modern-hyper-grace-54.html#post2448468

-JGIG

I tried. It just gets out of hand. Long posts are an abomination here. They're not easy to respond to.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>

The passage is a series of If/Then statements - If you are in Christ, what of the above applies? He is in you if you are in Christ - will He then deny Himself? Ever? Will He ever leave you or forsake you? If you wander off, He's right there with you - ALWAYS - even when you sin!

Is that not a better motivation to avoid sinning than fearing that He will leave you if you do sin? If you believe that when you sin Christ breaks fellowship with you, if He's not around anymore, why not just keep sinning? Can you see how that mentality can actually feed into a pattern of sinning rather than teach them to say no to sinning?

Let me put it this way: If you think you have to not sin for Jesus/God to be willing to be with you, but if you do sin, He won't be willing to be with you, you feel like when you screw up, He's left you to your own willpower to dig yourself out of the hole you've gotten yourself into.

But that's NOT what happens when we sin. He STAYS with us. He is an ever-present help when we're in trouble.
<snip>
​

-JGIG

First, let me say - It is good to see you on here! and that I always enjoy your post. I agree - Christ is always with us - He never leaves us or forsakes us even when we sin. I don't believe that when we sin we lose our salvation but our fellowship - our intimate relationship with the Father and the Son is fractured. He hasn't left me nor have I left him but there is blockage between our hearts and His.

Let me try to explain my thoughts on 1 John . . . I am walking in the light . . . I sin - now there is "darkness" dwelling in me. If at this time I say I have fellowship with him but darkness (sin) is dwelling in me - I lie and the truth is not in me - I confess my sin (darkness), I am cleansed of all unrighteousness (sin) and my fellowship - that intimate relationship with the Father and the Son is restored - let me stress "intimate" - I talk to him - He talks to me - we enjoy FULL intimacy, FULL sharing, FULL partnership. It's the same as my fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ - If I do something that offends or hurts a brother or sister in Christ - our relationship is not the same until it is mended - which takes asking forgiveness. A breach in a relationship is not the same thing as one leaving - there is a hindrance in place of having that intimate relationship - the relationship is still there it's just not the same.

Again - good to see you and my prayers and thoughts are with your family.

 

[JGIG]

From my experience with new.modern.hyper grace teaching, behavior only matters in this life. It has no bearing on eternal life. In other words, sin may cause one to experience bad things in this life, or die, but it can never jeopardize salvation.

The sin issue was dealt with at the Cross. Those in Christ have received forgiveness for their sins. They are forgiven people. Scripture is crystal clear on this issue.

So in essence, behavior doesn't matter.

Double talk.

Behavior matters. For you, for those around you, for the Kingdom.

Jesus alone, by His Spirit, guarantees our redemption (see Eph. 1).

It's not Jesus + behavior that guarantees our redemption.

The same as the gnostics thought. But to say openly that behavior doesn't matter would not draw the tithing crowds and book buyers.

Gnostics taught that the physical didn't matter, that Christ wasn't God in the flesh, and a bunch of other weird stuff. Defining Gnosticism comprehensively is somewhat like nailing Jello to a wall. Makes for a convenient label to throw at something one doesn't understand.

Oh, and most Grace preachers teach that tithing is not a requirement in the New Covenant . And as for books, I know that Paul Ellis, for one, and Andrew Farley, and others periodically makes their books available for huge discounts on Amazon. It's not about the money.

Here's Andrew Farley on tithing:

[video=youtube;Xeq9VU6-Zzw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeq9VU6-Zzw[/video]

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Great job at making the scriptures come alive with the awesomeness of Christ.

A note on circumcision - I listen to a guy talk about "spiritual circumcision " and he said the Lord told him one day.." Tell My people they can go from being uncircumcised to being circumcised but you can not go from being circumcised to being uncircumcised...in My spiritual circumcision of Christ --- it's the same way in the natural circumcision ...can you go back and get that dead and gone foreskin and put in back on?.....the answer is of course not


I firmly believe that if believers could really see what happened to them when we came to Christ ...in the spiritual circumcision of the heart and flesh - called the circumcision of Christ.....then the realities of who we really are now in our union with Christ will revolutionize our walk with the Lord.

This is a fallacy. Restoring circumcision to uncircumcision was actually practiced in new testament times. Jewish athletes who competed naked in Greek/Roman events were so mortified when the crowds would make fun of them for being circumcised that many of them had their circumcision reversed. Paul was probably referring to this procedure when he said.

Was anyone called [after] being circumcised? He must not undo his circumcision. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised. 1 Corinthians 7:18​

 

[ladylynn]

Abiding is where you live. If you aren't living in Christ, where are you living?

If you aren't living in Christ, you AREN'T living! You're dead in your sins.

And once born again, there is no going back and forth - alive in Christ - dead in sin - alive in Christ.

The Scriptures you posted above do not prove that because one is not doing the will of Christ that one is not abiding in Christ. They are still living - abiding - in Christ. Them making dumb decisions in choosing to sin doesn't put them into a state of spiritual death, which is being outside of (not abiding in) Christ. They're miserable, because they're acting contrary to who they are in Christ, but they're not spiritually dead.

We're set apart from the world because we're in Christ. It isn't because of what we do or don't do that we're set apart; it's because of Whose we are that we're set apart.


​

What Paul was telling Israel is this: There is a New Covenant - If you transgress, there is only one way, through faith in Christ, to be right with God. Physical circumcision doesn't count anymore - a circumcision of the heart is the only valid circumcision now, and that by the obedience of faith in Christ.

Context - Romans 1:16 - salvation is by faith from first to last for both Jews and Gentiles. Romans 2 is an indictment chapter for Jews and Gentiles alike - all fall short, with the balance of Romans detailing the Gospel of Grace, how righteousness is attained (only as a gift through faith in Christ), and a lot of teaching believers who they are in Christ. In Romans, Paul lays out the

>>> need <<< for the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, the
>>> supply <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike, and the
>>> results <<< of the Gospel for Jews and Gentiles alike.​

Do a quick study on the will of God after the Cross - it's pretty simple - believe in the One God has sent and love one another. Give thanks.

And let's look at not only Matthew 7:21 and include at least the next two verses:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (from Matthew 7)​

If Christ is talking about believers, there, then He is lying, because not only does Christ know the believer according to the Scriptures, but is one with them! No, this passage is talking about people who have NOT believed on the One God has sent for their salvation, but have relied on their own works, done even in His name . . . but they have not believed in HIM.

You're posting excerpts, not passages, to support your theology. Read the WHOLE passage:

​

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering,bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him; (see Galatians 2:20 - have you died with Him? and do you now live with Him?)

12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; (we endure because we live with Him)

if we deny him, he also will deny us; (those who do not believe - Christ will deny - is that the believer, according to Scripture?)

13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. (He cannot deny Himself because He is in us and we in Him, according to the Scriptures \o/)

(from 2 Timothy 2)​

The passage is a series of If/Then statements - If you are in Christ, what of the above applies? He is in you if you are in Christ - will He then deny Himself? Ever? Will He ever leave you or forsake you? If you wander off, He's right there with you - ALWAYS - even when you sin!

Is that not a better motivation to avoid sinning than fearing that He will leave you if you do sin? If you believe that when you sin Christ breaks fellowship with you, if He's not around anymore, why not just keep sinning? Can you see how that mentality can actually feed into a pattern of sinning rather than teach them to say no to sinning?

Let me put it this way: If you think you have to not sin for Jesus/God to be willing to be with you, but if you do sin, He won't be willing to be with you, you feel like when you screw up, He's left you to your own willpower to dig yourself out of the hole you've gotten yourself into.

But that's NOT what happens when we sin. He STAYS with us. He is an ever-present help when we're in trouble.

Hebrews 4 puts it so beautifully:

​

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

12 For the word (Logos is the Greek word used here, Jesus, Himself) of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
​

​

Defiled and what?

UNBELIEVING. This passage is talking about UNbelievers. Why are you trying to apply it to believers - it's clear that it's NOT speaking of believers!

Thank you for using Scripture - can you see how we've learned to skip over and think certain Scriptures say certain things - but they really don't?

Please take a closer look!

-JGIG

Amen JGIG! Nice post with beautiful verses! I was thinking of this very thing this morning while getting up and having coffee. A message on grace was on the tv and it was just so wonderful and lovely to be reminded yet again the way Jesus did it all for us. So sad the way humans think they can do any of it. Since Jesus went to the cross and got us out of the mess Adam dunked the human race in. And then seeing the refinement of sin over the years has gotten more ugly.

How come people believe Adam's sin could totally doooom the whole human race from generation to generation by his and Eve's rebellion and sin... Sin with it's associated counter part - death..and it came upon us all with the rest of the ugly mess; illness, misery, confusion, fear, weakness, deformity, distortion, hatred., ugliness.....etc... But people will NOT believe that JESUS by HIS perfect and holy power and authority could completely reverse and SAVE us from that doom?? Is Adam's sin stronger than God's love and Jesus blood?? NO WAY!

God in His grace devised the plan of salvation. Now all in Christ are 100% saved from the horrible fate of sin with it's accompanying horrors. Why do believers even resist the truth of God's power in His love in grace for us. Why not accept the fact that Jesus' love and sacrifice is stronger than Adam's sin? It's all there for us to see in the Bible if we move aside and look.

I think when Christians keep hearing about the grace of God that brings salvation AND hear it A LOT,they will be set free. From the time we get up to the time we go back to sleep to get His Word in our minds, it is then we can step over that barrier that causes us to look at our selves and not Jesus.
To release that fear that they might be mistaken that grace is just too good to be true. That the Holy Spirit will demolish that strong hold of religion.,cast down those human imaginations of doubt and fear. That is what it took for me to finally see the full and free grace of God.

Desperation to be rescued from self. Then we are actually supposed to "REST" !! That just sounds shocking that God wants us to rest!? But as you posted here JGIG that is what we are to do!! One of the things this preacher said this morning was that the greatest thing we can do as believers is to REST IN Christ. That brings honor to Him because it shows we are no longer striving in ourselves but resting IN Christ's ability to save us completely.

Then the works come as a natural fruit of being filled to overflowing. Only God could make up a plan like that. "Love goes where law cannot" Amen. You do sound like one who is JoyfullyGrowingInGrace

 

[JGIG]

This is a fallacy. Restoring circumcision to uncircumcision was actually practiced in new testament times. Jewish athletes who competed naked in Greek/Roman events were so mortified when the crowds would make fun of them for being circumcised that many of them had their circumcision reversed. Paul was probably referring to this procedure when he said.

Was anyone called [after] being circumcised? He must not undo his circumcision. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? He must not become circumcised. 1 Corinthians 7:18​

Not to be too graphic here, but a foreskin can not be retrieved and glued back on. It is a permanent physical alteration. Can remaining skin be stretched? Yes, but it does not result in a reversal of circumcision - that part of the anatomy has been discarded and is dead - permanently severed.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Double talk.

Behavior matters. For you, for those around you, for the Kingdom.

Jesus alone, by His Spirit, guarantees our redemption (see Eph. 1).

It's not Jesus + behavior that guarantees our redemption.

No, you folks are the ones engaging in double talk. On one hand you say that sin is bad (because it harms this earthly life), and then on the other hand say that sin isn't bad (because it can't harm eternal life). That's exactly what the gnostics believed.