Well, if I could get you to put your personal attacks on hold and get you to actually discuss Scripture, I have all confidence that you doctrine will be shown to have some serious problems.
Well, I apologize for what I said before, about doubting your Christian belief. Yet I know proper Biblical understanding about the timing of our Lord Jesus 2nd coming is going to be one of the most important matters involving which group of ten virgins one will be part of when He arrives. But don't forget that you've played the antagonist against me too.
I have to apologize, your doctrine is such that I believed you were an A-millennial.
Seems to be a lot amill folks on this forum. I'm not one of them.
Perhaps you are a Progressive Dispensationalist, that group is seriously confused as well, and adopt such nonsensical interpretations that deny the sequence of events as described in Revelation.
No, not a Dispensationalist either. I'm simply not a Darbyite at all. As for the proper sequence of events in Revelation, there's a difference between the order of the events given, and the order in which John was shown them by vision. Just because your doctrine teaches you to deny the timing of Christ's wrath on the 6th Seal as written, that shows how they're understanding of the proper sequence is skewed away from Scripture.
That you have the Tribulation ending with the sixth Seal indicates a spiritualizing of the texts and a nullification of that which follows.
Christ is clearly presented as returning in Chapter 19...after all the Judgments are unleashed.
Yes, when the time comes for God's cup of wrath to be poured out upon the wicked, that is... the end point of the time of great tribulation. It is day of the Lord timing, a phrase the OT prophets used, and both Apostles Paul and Peter used to mark those events in understanding for Christ's Church (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; 2 Thess.2:2 "day of Christ" which is actually "Lord" with Greek
kurios). Some here hate being reminded of that "day of the Lord" phrase because they can't get around it within God's Holy Writ.
But what the Pre-Trib Rapture theory teaches instead, is that the saints are raptured prior to that tribulation, are in Heaven throughout it, and then come back to earth with Jesus on the day of the Lord. That's actually a 2nd and another 3rd coming of Christ Jesus, when Scripture declares only two times of Christ's coming, His first one to die on the cross, and His second one on the "day of the Lord" to end the tribulation (Zech.9:9-10; the portion of Isaiah 61 that Jesus read in Luke 4, stopping after the first phrase of Isaiah 61:2, with the last phrase of that verse being for His future second coming). Even Zechariah 14 shows Christ returning with all His saints to the area of Jerusalem on earth, and all nations bowing then to Him as LORD and King (which is the Millennium timing).
Actually, you are only talking about part of what Christ taught.
And when we lay Matthew 24 to the backdrop of Revelation, we see that the events of Matthew 24 depict the Tribulation, and Matthew 25 depicts His Return, and nowhere in either do we see a Rapture.
I know you've been taught to deny the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which IS about the gathering of His saints at His second coming, but there it is. A closer look at where those two Scriptures reveal that gathering is to reveals it is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the two different groups of saints, the asleep saints and the saints still alive on earth on that day.
Furthermore, the signs our Lord Jesus gave there in Matt.24 and Mark 13 were the signs of the seals of Rev.6, for the seal order in Rev.6 follows His layout of signs there in His Olivet Discourse. The last sign He gave in His Olivet Discourse was that of His second coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth.
The first sign Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 reveals the identity of the rider on the white horse of Rev.6 as not being Him, and reveals why that is given at the first of the seals, even though that event doesn't happen until another seal (which is also why Rev.6 does not specifically say that rider on the white horse is the first seal; it is assumed only to be the first seal by the majority). It's there first in Rev.6 because that was our Lord's first sign of warning in His Olivet Discourse, that to not allow any man to deceive us, which is in relation to the idea of the false Christs in that chapter, and specifically a
pseudochristos singular false one (Matt.24:23-26) that is to come and cause the placing of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel.
That is not my concern, as to what men believed prior to the 1800's, my only concern is what Scripture teaches.
And the first point that defines a First Century Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the very simple point that it is impossible for the Church to be Glorified at the end of the Tribulation, as it leaves no physical believers on the earth. All unbelievers are destroyed, so if the Church is glorified, then we have to skip Revelation 20 and jump straight to the Eternal State.
The Second point is that only Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of the Tribulation.
The third point is that we do not see the Church in the events described.
Your obsession with the 1800's is not my concern, your loose handling of Scripture, and making it void is.
It should be a concern, since pre-trib scholars of the past even admitted that the doctrine only originated in 1830's Great Britain. Later pre-trib rapture scholars have instead been busy trying to do revisionist history to say it the Church had it much earlier when it did not. So there's a riff even within their own scholar community.
As for Scripture, so far you've proven nothing Scripture-based concerning the pre-trib rapture doctrine, while I have shown how God's Word is against it. Thus your affirmations that it is so vs. God's Word that shows Christ's coming and gathering of His saints is after the tribulation; which one should a believer on Jesus Christ keep?
No, because you slander Darby, and myself I call it slander.
There is no truth to doctrine that only includes part of Scripture.
There is no truth in doctrine that results in people who are as hateful as yourself.
Now it is YOU that is doing slandering, even by that "part of Scripture" idea you've dreamed up, when it's actually you that have been chopping the Scriptures up in order to try and prove the false pre-trib rapture theory.
I cannot feel sorry for people like John Nelson Darby. He has misled many, and the relation with Cyrus Scofield is even worse.
Now that...is laughable.
A few posts and you declare people unsaved.
And you have the nerve to speak of people convincing themselves of something.
If you want to discuss the doctrine, let me know. If you want to simply rail against people who see the weakness of your doctrine, have at it.
Christ only is our Judge. I can only say one is in danger and not that they have lost their salvation in Him.
And those on the pre-trib rapture doctrine are... in danger.
Your further false affirmations still do not work either. You cannot affirm... yourself into Heaven. You either follow what our Lord Jesus commanded, or you don't. And one of His commandments was to stay in His Word, and not in man's word like John Darby.
And here is the Rapture:
....
In the Rapture, the Lord gathers the Church, whereas in the Second Coming Angels gather.
In the Rapture the entire Church, both living and dead are glorified, whereas in the Second Coming only Tribulation Martyrs are raised.
In the Rapture, we ascend upward, being caught up, whereas at the Second Coming we come down, and believers remain physical.
There is no question that the verses you quote refer to a Post-Tribulation event, however...there is no Rapture in those texts.
Let's go over that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again:
1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Paul is telling them not to worry about the alseep saints that have already died, for Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes. That's only ONE coming.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The KJV word "prevent" is actually precede per the Greek. Those of us still alive on earth will in no way 'precede' the alseep saints that have already died. They are already there.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Christ descends to earth with that shout, and trump, the "last trump" Paul labeled it in 1 Cor.15. That is the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11:14 forward. At that point our Lord Jesus is returning, on His way to this earth, and bringing the alseep saints with Him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Then at that same time, the saints still alive on earth are caught up to meet Him with the asleep saints He brings with Him. Paul does not say here exactly where Jesus and these two groups of saints joined are going,
but the Zechariah 14 Scripture does tell us, and it is back to this earth, in the area of Jerusalem.
There is NOTHING about two different comings of Christ Jesus written there in 1 Thess.4. The false pre-trib rapture doctrine you keep wrongly ADDS another coming of Christ to that Scripture where it does not exist!
The difference is this:
Scripture - last trump, dead raised, Jesus' coming with His alseep saints, Jesus gathering His alive saints on earth, Jesus with all of them go to Jerusalem which is "day of the Lord" timing.
Pre-trib Rapture theory -
NOT the last trump,
prior to trib, Jesus comes to rapture His alive saints on earth, goes back to Heaven, asleep saints still asleep, on last trump end of trib Jesus comes with both "asleep" saints and "caught up" saints.
All that
underlined part is an ADDITION by men to the 1 Thess.4 Scriptures. It is simply not there by Apostle Paul.
That "trump of God" of 1 Thess.4:16:
Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV
That specifically is the 7th trumpet of Rev.11. Notice what events take place on that 7th Trumpet:
Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Just like that previous Rev.10:7 said, that 7th trumpet sounding ends the wicked's reign in Jerusalem, and then all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, Jesus beginning His eternal reign at that moment.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV
Now what did Paul say again about that 'trump' in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture???
1 Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Notice that time of Jesus coming with His alseep saints, the dead in Christ raised, and the alive saints being "caught up" with them is to occur on that "trump of God", the same 7th trumpet of Rev.11, and the same "last trump" Paul declared in 1 Cor.15:52:
1 Cor 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV
It just doesn't take much thinking to understand by those Scripture alignments that our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His saints is a one-time event that will occur to end the time of great tribulation He warned of. If the believer allows those Scriptures to interpret itself, that is the only solid conclusion.
I agree. Now turn the page and read Matthew 25.
Read Luke 17.
When He returns believers remain physically alive, and are the ones who enter into the Kingdom.
Already been through Matt.25, which is about Christ's Church; that's who His sheep are. So that separation is NOT about only Jews in some left-behind theory. It is about all wicked separated from among His sheep on the day of His coming, the sheep put on His right hand actually about the "caught up" event when He comes. The ONLY ones that will enter in the holy city ("camp of the saints" and "beloved city" of Rev.20:9) with Christ to reign with Him are His faithful elect of His Church. The unfaithful, like the unprofitable servant, and five foolish virgins, will be cast in the outer darkness, outside the gates of the holy city, where the wicked will be (Rev.22:14-15; Matt.25; Matt.8; Matt.22).
As for Luke 17, the ones 'taken' are taken into deception by the coming Antichrist. When Jesus' disciples ask Him 'where' those are taken, He says wheresover the carcase (the dead) is, that's where the vultures are gathered (Matt.24:28; end of Luke 17).
So much for your false theories on all that. And since long ago, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have used that Luke 17 idea of the first being 'taken' to mean Christ's rapturing His Church, while the wicked are left-behind! A simple reading of Christ's answer to His disciple's question in the last verse of Luke 17 reveals how completely... wrong those doctors are!
Who counters it? lol
I simply leave it in it's context, rather than try to make a Rapture passage out of it.
My reference was to the gathering of the saints by Jesus in the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. I don't know what you're referencing. I've been told by many on the pre-trib idea that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture was meant for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church, just another excuse for denial of written Scripture many of them use.
What should sound an alarm is someone saying they care and then declaring someone unsaved.
I don't know if you are saved or not. That's up to our Lord Jesus. But you put yourself in danger by not staying with Scripture as written, and I will tell you why.
Serious Bible study in all of God's Word as written (and with help in going into the manuscripts), reveals the coming of a pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem for the end of this world. That was what our Lord Jesus was specifically talking about in the Matt.24:23-26 verses, and Apostle Paul in the 2 Thess.2:1-7 verses, and Apostle John in the Rev.13 chapter, and Paul again in the 2 Cor.11 chapter about the "another Jesus".
2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 I hope you will be patient with me as I keep on talking like a fool. Do bear with me and let me say what is on my heart.
2 I am anxious for you with the deep concern of God himself-anxious that your love should be for Christ alone, just as a pure maiden saves her love for one man only, for the one who will be her husband.
3 But I am frightened, fearing that in some way you will be led away from your pure and simple devotion to our Lord, just as Eve was deceived by Satan in the Garden of Eden.
4 You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.
TLB
That is the danger you place yourself in, i.e, falling away to that coming "another Jesus" or
pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26 our Lord Jesus warned us about for the tribulation. That was Paul's warning again the 2 Thess.2:4 Scripture about that false one coming to exalt himself in place of God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
Many brethren are going to fall away to that false messiah who comes first. The Church will still be here for that tribulation, which is why Paul warned us about that coming false one, and in 1 Thess.5 even gave us some event markers to be watching for it (when the deceived say, "Peace and safety" is one of those events).
Will that coming false messiah with the power to work great signs and miracles on earth pull off some kind of fake rapture? Yes, that I strongly believe. And if you understood who that false one will be, you'd no doubt agree. Your leaders in the pre-trib rapture doctrine are going to be telling you that false one is our Lord Jesus coming to gather us. It won't be our Lord Jesus.
The ONLY way to know when our Lord Jesus comes to gather us, is to be changed to the resurrection body at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. That event I don't think the coming false messiah will be able to pull off. But the creation of images of a fake rapture of others, yes, and then a command to flock to Jerusalem to worship him.