The "Rapture"?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63

So this time, which jesus said, if he did not return, no flesh on earth would survive, Is not gods wrath?

Wow.. ok..
Correct!! The Great Tribulation is the massive attack on Israel. God's Wrath comes in response. I don't know why you and others can't see this. First we have the Great Tribulation. Israel is obliterated and hanging by a thread then God's Wrath is poured out on those who attacked Israel. In every passage we see the Great Tribulation against Israel first, followed by God's Wrath second. Let me see if I can show this visually with multiple passages. Maybe this will help some of you.

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
That is just another circumvention on your part PlainWord.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Dan.9:27)

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mt.24:15)

I'll let the readers decide for themselves whether or not Jesus is quoting Dan.9:27.
What Bible version are you reading? The word "Temple" is not found in the original transcript. Use KJV for the most accurate transliteration.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus is NOT quoting Dan 9:27. Daniel 9:27 does not contain the phrase "Abomination of Desolation" does it? Therefore Jesus isn't quoting Dan 9:27. He is quoting Dan 11:31. First look at what Jesus says:

Mat 24:[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Now look at Daniel 11.

Dan 11: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished..

I know you desperately need Dan 9:27 to be talking about a 2,000 year gap in Daniel's 70 weeks to make your whole Pre-trib rapture theory work. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work. There is no gap taught in Dan 9. It's as I've been saying. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan which takes the form of a massive attack by the followers of Satan (Islam) against Israel. The King of the North AKA Man of Sin, AKA AntiChrist comes against Israel and Saudi Arabia. God allows it. Then God pours His wrath out on them.

There is no pre-trib rapture and there is no need for one. The Great Tribulation is limited to that part of the world where the Beast (Northern Islamic Army) is located and Israel. The wrath is poured out there.
 
Last edited:

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Brother PlainWord, Just a thought,

Could it be that the seventy weeks ended in 70 ad? The numbers add up don't they?
Dear abcdef,

For a long time I thought that too, but the numbers do not add up if the 70 weeks are without break. Again, no break is taught. Any break is put there by men with an agenda (not saying you). The destruction of the Temple is not mentioned as one of the events that is accomplished within the 70 weeks. The destruction of the Temple happens some 37-40 years after the Cross.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


All of these things happened before or at the Cross.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks...

69 Weeks from the Command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTIL MESSIAH, not until He dies but until HE IS PROCLAIMED which happens here:

Mat 3: [SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire...and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This marks the end of the 69 weeks of 7 years. Now the 70th week begins.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Jesus confirms the new covenant.

Matthew 26:28:For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 7: [SUP]22 [/SUP]by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Jesus puts an end to sacrifice and offerings. After the cross there was no need for sacrifices or offerings because Christ became that for us.

Ephesians 5:2: And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

He was supposed to do this for one week (7 years) but is cut-off in the middle of the week. At the Cross the vale was torn. We no longer needed to go through Priests. Obviously the Temple wasn't destroyed until a little bit later but that happens after the 70 weeks are over. 70 weeks were appointed, but 69.5 weeks actually happened. Make sense?
 
Last edited:

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Let me try to explain the last part of Dan 9:27 for those still confused.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he (CHRIST) shall confirm the covenant with many (the WORLD) for one week: and in the midst of the week (3.5 year ministry) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (By dying on the Cross and becoming our offering and sacrifice), and for the overspreading of abominations (Multitudes of Sins of the priests who killed Him and the corruption of the Law) he (Titus) shall make it (the Temple) desolate (destroyed), even until the consummation (the Wrath of God which is poured out as a consuming fire after the Great Tribulation of Israel in the last days), and that determined (Wrath) shall be poured upon the desolate (Muslims who attacked Israel and followed the "Beast").
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
And he (CHRIST) shall confirm the covenant with many (the WORLD) for one week


Hi PlainWord,

"The many" is not the world. Let's look at the scripture:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[SUP] [/SUP]transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

It is important to pay attention to the details of scripture. That said, first we need to understand who the prophecy is directed to:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[SUP] [/SUP]transgression"

The angel tells Daniel that the seventy sevens are decreed is for his people and his holy city, which could be none other than Israel and Jerusalem, respectively.

"From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens."

Seven seven year periods = 49 years

Sixty-two seven year periods = 434 years

Total = sixty nine seven year periods or 483 years

Since seventy sevens were decreed and only sixty have been fulfilled up to this point, there is then on seven year period left, as follows:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[SUP]j[/SUP] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The "He" in the verse would have to refer back to the last person spoken of which is "the ruler" of verse 26. Since this last seven years is also apart of the original seventy seven year periods, and the decree was made to Israel and her holy city, then this last seven years is also directed at Israel. Therefore, the covenant that the ruler makes would have to be with Israel and not the world. The other proof that the covenant is with Israel is that, in the middle of the seven years the ruler causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination in the holy place. That said, the ceasing of the sacrifice and offerings would refer to Israel's sacrifices within the temple and that the abomination is set up in the holy place would be the room just outside of the holy of hollies within the Jewish temple, both pointing Israel.

All of that said, the covenant that the ruler makes with "Many" all points to Israel. I'm sure that Islam will be involved as well, for someone is going to have to come along that has authority over Islam in order to make it possible for Israel to build their temple on the temple mount, that being that antichrist whom they will believe to be the imam they've been waiting for and Israel their Messiah.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
What Bible version are you reading? The word "Temple" is not found in the original transcript. Use KJV for the most accurate transliteration.
PlainTruth,

The word "temple" is irrelevant and that because we have the scripture stating that the abomination will be set up in the "holy place" which is that room just outside of the "Holy of hollies" within the temple. We also have Jesus identifying that the abomination as being set up in the "holy place" which again would be that room within the Jewish temple. Also, that Israel will be making offerings and sacrifices, this would only be done within the temple.

I know you desperately need Dan 9:27 to be talking about a 2,000 year gap in Daniel's 70 weeks to make your whole Pre-trib rapture theory work. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work.
Really? You're saying that God can't have one prophecy and have different parts happen at different times? Then I would direct your attention to the following:

===========================================
"And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” A

And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

===========================================

Now here is the scripture in Isaiah that Jesus was reading from:


"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God"

As you can see, when Jesus read the prophecy above, he left of the "and the day of vengeance of our God." The reason that he did this is because that part of the prophecy had not yet been fulfilled and in fact has yet to be fulfilled 2000 years later. So, you might want to rethink your of there being a gap between the sixty-nine sevens and that last
seven years.












 
Last edited:

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Let me try to explain the last part of Dan 9:27 for those still confused.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he (CHRIST) shall confirm the covenant with many (the WORLD) for one week: and in the midst of the week (3.5 year ministry) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (By dying on the Cross and becoming our offering and sacrifice), and for the overspreading of abominations (Multitudes of Sins of the priests who killed Him and the corruption of the Law) he (Titus) shall make it (the Temple) desolate (destroyed), even until the consummation (the Wrath of God which is poured out as a consuming fire after the Great Tribulation of Israel in the last days), and that determined (Wrath) shall be poured upon the desolate (Muslims who attacked Israel and followed the "Beast").
I'm reposting this, but without the typos:

PlainTruth,

The word "temple" is irrelevant and that because we have the scripture stating that the abomination will be set up in the "holy place" which is that room just outside of the "Holy of hollies" within the temple. We also have Jesus identifying that the abomination as being set up in the "holy place" which again would be that room within the Jewish temple. Also, that Israel will be making offerings and sacrifices, this would only be done within the temple.


I know you desperately need Dan 9:27 to be talking about a 2,000 year gap in Daniel's 70 weeks to make your whole Pre-trib rapture theory work. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work.


Really? You're saying that God can't have one prophecy and have different parts happen at different times? Then I would direct your attention to the following:

===========================================
"And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” A

And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

===========================================

Now here is the scripture in Isaiah that Jesus was reading from:


"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God"

As you can see, when Jesus read the prophecy above, he left off the end part which says "and the day of vengeance of our God." The reason that he did this is because the "vengeance of our God" part of the prophecy had not yet been fulfilled and in fact has yet to be fulfilled 2000 years later. So, you might want to rethink your claim of there not being a gap between the sixty-nine sevens and that last
seven years.



 
Last edited:
Dec 19, 2015
134
9
18
If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.
Does that mean; kids won't get "raptured"?
 
Dec 19, 2015
134
9
18
It seems I don't know how to apply, who somebodies quote came from.
 
P

popeye

Guest
It seems I don't know how to apply, who somebodies quote came from.
Hit the quote button and erase all that you are not responding to.

Just be sure to (put several periods before and after as a courtesy that you have edited their quote

(reply with quote button)
 
Last edited:
P

popeye

Guest
We need to keep in mind that terminology like 'go to heaven when you die' isn't in the Bible. Paul talks about being absent from the body and present with the Lord, and that's about the strongest evidence of 'going to heaven when you die.' I've even read where a pre-trib scholar suggested that that passage might be talking about the rapture, too.

Paul tells believers to comfort one another with words about the resurrection and rapture, and that we are not to grieve as those who have no hope.

I went to a funeral at an evangelical church about a year ago, and I noticed multiple references to the deceased dying and going to heaven. But no one mentioned the resurrection of the dead, the doctrine Paul referred to when he said to 'comfort one another with these words."

When I went to the funeral of a young man whose father went to my church. The young man had gone to a Roman Catholic college and they had a funeral for him in their chapel. This was the first RCC service of any kind I'd been to. I didn't hear a sermon on purgatory or praying to Mary. But I did hear in the liturgy several references to the resurrection of the dead. Their prayer for the dead was basically asking God to fulfill His promises about seeing the departed in the resurrection. Then they'd state their belief in the resurrection as part of the liturgy. The irony was that it seemed in a lot of ways, the RCC funeral was more Biblical, more focused on Biblical doctrine.

This concept bolsters a pretrib rapture.

If believers do not go to heaven at death,then the innumerable number had to get there via a catching up after they were resurrected.

Yes it truly is a pre trib rapture
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Yes, because there is no pre trib rapture
When the church is gone and you see a seven year contract being made with Israel, then realize that you are in now in the time period when God's wrath will poured out and that you were wrong about the teaching that you adopted regarding the Lord's appearing to remove the church.

Pre-trib: Those who are looking for the imminent return of the Lord to remove his church prior to God's wrath, which begins at the breaking of the first seal.

Post-trib: Those who are not looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but expect to be here during the time of God's wrath with the Lord returning to the earth after those events of wrath.

Pre-trib = Blessed hope and comfort

Post-trib = No blessed hope and no comfort, but only exposure to the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God.

"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath
but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
[/COLOR]Hi PlainWord,

"The many" is not the world. Let's look at the scripture:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[SUP]j[/SUP] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The "He" in the verse would have to refer back to the last person spoken of which is "the ruler" of verse 26. Since this last seven years is also apart of the original seventy seven year periods, and the decree was made to Israel and her holy city, then this last seven years is also directed at Israel. Therefore, the covenant that the ruler makes would have to be with Israel and not the world. The other proof that the covenant is with Israel is that, in the middle of the seven years the ruler causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination in the holy place. That said, the ceasing of the sacrifice and offerings would refer to Israel's sacrifices within the temple and that the abomination is set up in the holy place would be the room just outside of the holy of hollies within the Jewish temple, both pointing Israel.

All of that said, the covenant that the ruler makes with "Many" all points to Israel. I'm sure that Islam will be involved as well, for someone is going to have to come along that has authority over Islam in order to make it possible for Israel to build their temple on the temple mount, that being that antichrist whom they will believe to be the imam they've been waiting for and Israel their Messiah.
Again, what translation are you using? Are you aware that many of the more modern translations were made by Greek and Hebrew scholars who are not believers? As such, they don't have the Christian foundation to correctly translate. Let's stick with the same translation, either the KJV or NKJV. I mostly use NKJV because it reads easier. There is no word, "ruler"" in verse 26. The only singular person mentioned in verse 26 is Messiah:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Notice it isn't the "Prince" (Titus) who destroys the city and sanctuary, rather it is his people (Roman solders). Titus actually didn't want the Temple destroyed. The end of Jerusalem and the Temple sanctuary was in 70 AD. But again, the destruction of the city and temple are not among the list of things appointed to happen during the 70 weeks. Everything listed as those things have been accomplished and nothing remains for some 2,000 year gap and some new figure to emerge, not in this passage anyway.

Again, "the people of the Prince" destroy the Temple and city. So when verse 27 starts with "he" it actually is referring back to Messiah. Titus doesn't end sacrifices and offerings. The destruction of the temple put an end to most sacrifices for awhile but they resumed again during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., then ended permanently after that war was lost.

Your view requires the construction of a 3rd man-made Jewish Temple but no such prophesy can be found. It is only assumed by a couple of passages such as this one that are misunderstood. I do not believe God will ever allow the Jews to build a new temple because He would not recognize it or condone it. Remember Jesus said He would rebuilt the Temple in 3 days? The temple is now spiritual and will remain as such until when?

"Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The Temple will remain desolate until the consuming fire is poured out on the Islamic attackers of Israel. Then the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. But the new Temple is not of brick and mortar. It is spiritual as we see here.

Rev 21: [SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

All of that said, the covenant that the ruler makes with "Many" all points to Israel.
If the covenant was to be made only with Israel, then Daniel would have told us this. Instead Daniel says "many" implying the covenant is made with more than just Israel. It is made with all those who would believe and accept the Messiah as the Son of God and our Lord and Savior.

Seven seven year periods = 49 years

Sixty-two seven year periods = 434 years

Total = sixty nine seven year periods or 483 years
Thank you for listing the years as they prove my version is correct. You have to remember that these years are Jewish years based on 360 days and not our 365.24 days. We are looking at a time-line of 69 x 7 = 483 biblical years or 476.067 of our solar years. You must realize also that there is no ZERO year so we go from 1 BC to 1 AD. If you crunch this all out you get to 30 AD when the first 483 Jewish years are over which is when Christ started His ministry.

Christ died on our April 3, 33 AD or half way into week 70. So the math is on my side. There is no 2,000 year break.
 
Last edited:

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
PlainTruth,

The word "temple" is irrelevant and that because we have the scripture stating that the abomination will be set up in the "holy place" which is that room just outside of the "Holy of hollies" within the temple. We also have Jesus identifying that the abomination as being set up in the "holy place" which again would be that room within the Jewish temple. Also, that Israel will be making offerings and sacrifices, this would only be done within the temple.
If Jesus meant "Temple" He would have said, "Temple." You see, Jesus is capable of using the word, "Temple." Here's just one example of Christ uttering the word, "Temple."

Mat 23:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?


Christ used the word, "temple" several times. However, He only said, "Holy Place" once and only once and that was in Matthew 24.

So, what "holy place" was Christ discussing? The same that Daniel discussed in Dan 11:31 only Daniel calls it the "Sanctuary Fortress." You see the Temple was protected by high walls and only one is left.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily [prayers, not sacrifices], and place there the abomination of desolation.

You see before the radical Islamic troops led by the King of the North attacks Jerusalem, they will defile the Wailing Wall where Jews pray. They then place something which is an Abomination there. The Wailing Wall is the most sacred site in Jerusalem for devout Jews. I believe it will be at the Wailing Wall that the A of D is placed. When Jews see this, they are to flee Judea. The Great Tribulation, which is the full scale attack on Israel by Islamic forces, will begin.

Christ is now our temple and there will be no other man-made one and there doesn't need to be for the rest of prophesy to unfold.

Heb 9: [SUP]11 [/SUP]But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
 
Last edited:
Jan 26, 2016
382
2
0
When the church is gone and you see a seven year contract being made with Israel, then realize that you are in now in the time period when God's wrath will poured out and that you were wrong about the teaching that you adopted regarding the Lord's appearing to remove the church.

Pre-trib: Those who are looking for the imminent return of the Lord to remove his church prior to God's wrath, which begins at the breaking of the first seal.

Post-trib: Those who are not looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but expect to be here during the time of God's wrath with the Lord returning to the earth after those events of wrath.

Pre-trib = Blessed hope and comfort

Post-trib = No blessed hope and no comfort, but only exposure to the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God.

"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath
but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Why did you say "no blessed hope or comfort" Are you not comforted knowing the Lord is coming back? Why is there no blessed hope? I have both of these and don't believe in your "rapture.I have blessed hope and comfort knowing our Lord is coming back
 
Last edited:

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
When the church is gone and you see a seven year contract being made with Israel, then realize that you are in now in the time period when God's wrath will poured out and that you were wrong about the teaching that you adopted regarding the Lord's appearing to remove the church.
What 7 year contract? Where do you get that from???

Pre-trib: Those who are looking for the imminent return of the Lord to remove his church prior to God's wrath, which begins at the breaking of the first seal.
The first seal was broken with Muhammad in 632 AD. There is no passage that discusses the church being removed prior to God's wrath.

Post-trib: Those who are not looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but expect to be here during the time of God's wrath with the Lord returning to the earth after those events of wrath.
Looking for imminent return, seriously? The 5 foolish virgins were looking for the imminent return of the bridegroom but didn't bring enough oil because a longer than expected wait was needed. We are all going to be on the planet during God's Wrath but don't worry, if you don't travel to the Middle East you will be fine. If you live in the Middle East, God tells you to "get out", "leave,"

Rev 18: [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Post-trib = No blessed hope and no comfort, but only exposure to the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God.
What passage tells us that all 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls are the wrath of God?

Was God's Wrath responsible for the 4th seal? "And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth."

Was God angry at all the souls under the alter that were killed at the 5th seal? [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Why would these souls be asking for revenge against those on the earth who killed them if God killed them?

What about the 5th trumpet? [SUP]11 [/SUP]And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. This is supposed to be God's Wrath?? God is the King of the Bottomless Pit? You really need to rethink some of your positions dear brother.


"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath
but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Of course we aren't appointed to God's Wrath, this is more than clear. But not being appointed and being raptured off the planet are completely different things. God's Wrath is against Gog.

Eze 38: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken...

Like I've been saying, the Great Tribulation is the Attack of Gog against Israel and God's Wrath is in response to it. Plain and simple. No need to fly away my brothers.
 
Last edited:

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Hello Nikki84,

Please read this entire post and don't breeze over it. Go and actually look at the scriptures that I am providing. My purpose is to get you to understand what I have been teaching in these posts regarding this issue.

Why did you say "no blessed hope or comfort" Are you not comforted knowing the Lord is coming back?
The reason that I said that is because, those who believe in the Lord's promise, i.e. that believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because the Lord suffered it for us, are comforted in that blessed hope, which is the gathering of the church prior to God's time of wrath. But for those who believe that the Lord is going to allow his church to go through his time of wrath and then gather them afterwards, that would not be a blessed hope nor would it be a comfort and that because of the severity of the plagues of God's wrath that the inhabitants of the earth will be suffering during that time. How could a one who is in Christ be comforted knowing that they would first have to go through God's wrath before the Lord comes to gather them? Nor would going through God's wrath be a blessed hope. The blessed hope is the assurance that Believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that according to his promise, we will be gathered prior to that time period.

I have both of these and don't believe in your "rapture.I have blessed hope and comfort knowing our Lord is coming back
By your comment above, it tells me that you have no understanding of what God's wrath entails. If you did, your going through that time of wrath would certainly not be in any way shape or form be a blessed hope. I would suggest that you do an in-depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For if you have the gathering of the church taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then the living church would have to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments before they can be gathered. When you read each of those plagues of wrath, do so at face value. Here is a good example of what I am talking about:

============================================

"The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
12The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

============================================

Above is the 5th trumpet/1st woe. That star is referred to as a "He" who is given the key to the Abyss, which would demonstrate that this star that falls from heaven to the earth is most certainly angel. He opens the Abyss and out of it comes demonic beings. We know that they are demonic beings because 1). they are coming up out of the Abyss and 2). verse 11 says that they have a king over them which is the angel of the Abyss, who is also that beast that comes up out of the Abyss. Notice in verse 4 they are told not to harm the grass, trees or plants, but only those people who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. According to scripture, those who are sealed is referring to the 144,000 who were sealed in Rev.7. This means that the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel are the only ones who are protected from these demonic beings whose main purpose will be to torment the inhabitants of the earth with the stings like that of a scorpion. Consequently, that would also include the church if they were here during that time and that because according to scripture only the 144,000 are protected. This is just one reason as to why the church must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath. Here's another example:

============================================

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

============================================

At the pouring of the 4th bowl judgment, God affects the sun so that it scorches the inhabitants of the earth with fire and sears them with intense heat. If the church was here during this time, they would also be exposed to the scorching and searing of the sun, which I would remind you is not being done by men, but by God. Now people who hold to a post-trib belief have said "the church is protected during the time of those plagues of wrath" but the fact is that this claim of their is pure conjecture, assumption on their part. For not only is the church not mentioned during these plagues of wrath, but there is also no mention of the inhabitants of the earth being protected from these plagues.

As I've said in many posts, the error that I see is the lack of understanding of the severity of the God's wrath. The population of the earth is going to be decimated and all human government dismantled due to the affects of the seals, trumpets and bowls judgments. The other error is people not understanding that the appearing of the Lord to gather the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Because of these two errors, you have mid and post-trib beliefs.
 
Last edited:
C

Chuckt

Guest
What 7 year contract? Where do you get that from???



The first seal was broken with Muhammad in 632 AD. There is no passage that discusses the church being removed prior to God's wrath.
That is an interpretation with no valid evidence and you have no scriptures to back it up.
 
Jan 26, 2016
382
2
0
Hello Nikki84,

Please read this entire post and don't breeze over it. Go and actually look at the scriptures that I am providing. My purpose is to get you to understand what I have been teaching in these posts regarding this issue.



The reason that I said that is because, those who believe in the Lord's promise, i.e. that believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because the Lord suffered it for us, are comforted in that blessed hope, which is the gathering of the church prior to God's time of wrath. But for those who believe that the Lord is going to allow his church to go through his time of wrath and then gather them afterwards, that would not be a blessed hope nor would it be a comfort and that because of the severity of the plagues of God's wrath that the inhabitants of the earth will be suffering during that time. How could a one who is in Christ be comforted knowing that they would first have to go through God's wrath before the Lord comes to gather them? Nor would going through God's wrath be a blessed hope. The blessed hope is the assurance that Believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that according to his promise, we will be gathered prior to that time period.



By your comment above, it tells me that you have no understanding of what God's wrath entails. If you did, your going through that time of wrath would certainly not be in any way shape or form be a blessed hope. I would suggest that you do an in-depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. For if you have the gathering of the church taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then the living church would have to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments before they can be gathered. When you read each of those plagues of wrath, do so at face value. Here is a good example of what I am talking about:

============================================

"The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
12The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.

============================================

Above is the 5th trumpet/1st woe. That star is referred to as a "He" who is given the key to the Abyss, which would demonstrate that this star that falls from heaven to the earth is most certainly angel. He opens the Abyss and out of it comes demonic beings. We know that they are demonic beings because 1). they are coming up out of the Abyss and 2). verse 11 says that they have a king over them which is the angel of the Abyss, who is also that beast that comes up out of the Abyss. Notice in verse 4 they are told not to harm the grass, trees or plants, but only those people who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. According to scripture, those who are sealed is referring to the 144,000 who were sealed in Rev.7. This means that the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel are the only ones who are protected from these demonic beings whose main purpose will be to torment the inhabitants of the earth with the stings like that of a scorpion. Consequently, that would also include the church if they were here during that time and that because according to scripture only the 144,000 are protected. This is just one reason as to why the church must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath. Here's another example:

============================================

"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him."

============================================

At the pouring of the 4th bowl judgment, God affects the sun so that it scorches the inhabitants of the earth with fire and sears them with intense heat. If the church was here during this time, they would also be exposed to the scorching and searing of the sun, which I would remind you is not being done by men, but by God. Now people who hold to a post-trib belief have said "the church is protected during the time of those plagues of wrath" but the fact is that this claim of their is pure conjecture, assumption on their part. For not only is the church not mentioned during these plagues of wrath, but there is also no mention of the inhabitants of the earth being protected from these plagues.

As I've said in many posts, the error that I see is the lack of understanding of the severity of the God's wrath. The population of the earth is going to be decimated and all human government dismantled due to the affects of the seals, trumpets and bowls judgments. The other error is people not understanding that the appearing of the Lord to gather the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. Because of these two errors, you have mid and post-trib beliefs.
You have Jesus coming 3 times. That is not scripture.