The Rapture

[J7]

To clarify, would v30 be included in "all these things" to be fulfilled within that generation or not?

Or is v30 part of the "of that day"?

Well it is after the destruction of the temple, so really it is between these things and that day.

The disciples asked for the sign of Jesus's 2nd Coming, so really it is connected to that day, as Revelation describes events from John's day, AD96, all the way up to Christ's return.

(that is my best answer, maybe you have a better one)

 

[Burninglight]

So if I were to try to establish any position on the rapture pre/post trib stuff and try to do it with some type clarity then just the same as we look at each other and determine what position each of us hold based on the things we type and then hit enter,,,,,

Look at Matthew 24 and see the position Jesus holds,is he "pre or post"?,,,

That should solve the problem Jesus explicitly states what He is; so, I don't know why the "rapture" doctrine is even taught in the churches.

 

[Burninglight]

Matthew 24:32 KJV
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

This means we don't know the day or hour of Christ return, but we can know the season which blows the false rapture doctrine out of the water.

 

[KJV1611]

Well it is after the destruction of the temple, so really it is between these things and that day.

The disciples asked for the sign of Jesus's 2nd Coming, so really it is connected to that day, as Revelation describes events from John's day, AD96, all the way up to Christ's return.

(that is my best answer, maybe you have a better one)

Maybe it's talking about the return at his resurrection?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So the tribulation saints are not part of the Church? If they believe in Jesus, how are they not in the Church?

Because the church period ends when Jesus descends to gather the church. The great tribulation saints will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered. This is that group introduced in Rev.7:9-17 which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles).

This is the same group that the beast is given authority to make war against and conquer in Rev.13:7. They are also the same group who John sees behead for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who would not worship the beast, his image nor received his mark. They are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

I realize you say they missed the rapture so now they have to go through it, but why? If they place their faith in Jesus Christ now they should immediately be raptured as well by that logic, since Jesus suffered all their wrath, why would it be "too late"?

Simply because they will not have believed in Jesus until after the church is gathered. If they would have become believers prior to the gathering of the church, they would have belonged to the church and would also have been changed and caught up. They will probably be people who were told about Christ and the coming wrath, but did not believe.

As believers Jesus and scripture tells us to be watching, ready, looking for His appearing. It's called "the blessed hope." Because these people will not have believed, neither will they be longing for His appearing.

"Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

 

[KJV1611]

Matthew 24:32 KJV
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

This means we don't know the day or hour of Christ return, but we can know the season which blows the false rapture doctrine out of the water.

It's a parable, the fig tree represents something.

 

[J7]

yes.

The vineyard is Israel, so the fig tree appears to be Jerusalem.

Luke 13:6
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard;

 

[Ahwatukee]

I like it, but then it says This generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfiled in v34

Hello Bogadile,

The "this generation" in the verse would grammatically have to refer to that generation where the signs appear and is not referring to the generation from which Jesus was speaking.

Trees putting forth their blossoms = Summer is near

When all of these signs begin to take place = the end of the age is near

 

[J7]

Nonsense.

'This generation' is repeatedly referred to throughout the New Testament as meaning that generation of Christ.

 

[garee]

Because the church period ends when Jesus descends to gather the church. The great tribulation saints will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered. This is that group introduced in Rev.7:9-17 which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles).

This is the same group that the beast is given authority to make war against and conquer in Rev.13:7. They are also the same group who John sees behead for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who would not worship the beast, his image nor received his mark. They are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.



Simply because they will not have believed in Jesus until after the church is gathered. If they would have become believers prior to the gathering of the church, they would have belonged to the church and would also have been changed and caught up. They will probably be people who were told about Christ and the coming wrath, but did not believe.

As believers Jesus and scripture tells us to be watching, ready, looking for His appearing. It's called "the blessed hope." Because these people will not have believed, neither will they be longing for His appearing.

"Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

God is not a man as us never was never could be. He remains supernatural without mother or father beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

Do the scriptures speak of Him who is not a man as us having no form coming more than once in the flesh? Or will he put on corrupted flesh again for another demonstration of a spiritual not seen work of His Spirit being poured out as promised?

Can we see His Spirit as he does work?Or do we walk by faith (his)

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Will the veil that he tore be mended and Christ crucified over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1Jo 4:2

Is there even a hint that he might again come and give another demonstration?

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Burninglight]

Because the church period ends when Jesus descends to gather the church. The great tribulation saints will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered. This is that group introduced in Rev.7:9-17 which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles). .

The church period ends? Where does the Scripture say that? It seems to me you are making an inference to support an unscriptural rapture doctrine started by Margret McDonald and spread by Darby and Scobey.

This is the same group that the beast is given authority to make war against and conquer in Rev.13:7. They are also the same group who John sees behead for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who would not worship the beast, his image nor received his mark. They are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. .

It is the church that the beast makes war with otherwise know as the bride of Christ. You cannot divide the church with these nonsense inferences. Why don't you believe the explicit Scripture instead of conjecture, speculation and ungodly inference taught by man?

The Scripture says "The coming of the Lord" not the comings of the Lord; it says "The day of the Lord not the days of the Lord." Jesus said after the tribulation He'll come not before, and every eye will see Him. Mat. 24.... Paul tells you don't be deceived that day will not happen until the antichrist is revealed. 2 Thes 2. Why do you insist on a false rapture doctrine?

Simply because they will not have believed in Jesus until after the church is gathered. If they would have become believers prior to the gathering of the church, they would have belonged to the church and would also have been changed and caught up. They will probably be people who were told about Christ and the coming wrath, but did not believe. .

Rubbish, what Scripture can you prove this with. Stop trying to divide the church. We are all in one baptism and one faith. There is no such thing as tribulation saints. The church is the church and we all go together and Jesus is not coming to rescue you from your electric blankets and your Ultra High definition colored TV sets. The Christians will be killed as the souls under the alter were as mentioned by John when the 5th seal was opened.

As believers Jesus and scripture tells us to be watching, ready, looking for His appearing. It's called "the blessed hope." Because these people will not have believed, neither will they be longing for His appearing. .

This means we can know the season of His return and be ready, but when Jesus Comes every eye will see Him as lighting comes from the East and shines to the West. this has not to do with a false pretrib rapture teaching

"

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.".

That is correct. No one disagrees with this !!!

"

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."

No one disagrees with this either

 

[garee]

Hello Bogadile,

The "this generation" in the verse would grammatically have to refer to that generation where the signs appear and is not referring to the generation from which Jesus was speaking.

Trees putting forth their blossoms = Summer is near

When all of these signs begin to take place = the end of the age is near

His generation (not the generation of Adam called the evil generation ) it began when its genealogy be came sight. The genealogy was fulfilled .the veil is rent, the shadows became substance. The time of the reformation began


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[Bogadile]

Matthew 24:32 KJV
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

What do you see this as?

No idea. You know?

 

[KJV1611]

No idea. You know?

I think so but I'm not 100% sure on it yet. As J7 said, the fig tree is earthly Jerusalem. So the parable goes like this - When Jerusalem's branches are yet tender and putting forth leaves (spring time new growth), then you know that summer is near. Would you agree with this to this point?

 

[Bogadile]

garee what you are saying sounds like gnosticism, as if everything physical is evil? Jesus did have a glorified BODY after His resurrection, He even ate with the disciples. It is an incorruptible body however.

 

[Bogadile]

I think so but I'm not 100% sure on it yet. As J7 said, the fig tree is earthly Jerusalem. So the parable goes like this - When Jerusalem's branches are yet tender and putting forth leaves (spring time new growth), then you know that summer is near. Would you agree with this to this point?

Sure. You know, people like to use Matthew 24:32 as predicting the rebirth of Israel as a nation, since it is the fig tree. However they never interpret the fig tree as Israel in Matthew 21:19 it is strange. Almost as if they pick and choose.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sure. You know, people like to use Matthew 24:32 as predicting the rebirth of Israel as a nation, since it is the fig tree. However they never interpret the fig tree as Israel in Matthew 21:19 it is strange. Almost as if they pick and choose.

If the fig tree in Matt.24:32 is figurative representing Israel, then what would make of Luke's version:

"He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees.When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. "

The mention of "all the trees" would detract from the parable representing Israel as the fig tree. The gist of the scripture is that it is just demonstrating that just as when you see the trees blossoming you know that summer is near. In the same way, when all of those signs begin to take place, then the end of the age is near.

The mentioning of the fig tree in scripture is not always referring to Israel. Most of the time in scripture a fig tree is just a fig tree.

 

[J7]

All the trees then can refer to all the cities of Judea.

I suspect it refers to the Jewish Zealot Movement.

As they started to get very active in their resistance to Roman rule, AD60 onwards, then the end beckoned.

 

[garee]

garee what you are saying sounds like gnosticism, as if everything physical is evil? Jesus did have a glorified BODY after His resurrection, He even ate with the disciples. It is an incorruptible body however.

God is not a man as us.(impossible)

Everything seen is corrupted and has to do with the temporal. And the generation of Christ the invisible church, it is why without parables Christ spoke not hiding the spiritual eternal not seen , the faith principle used in parables

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


He corrupted the whole creation that groans to be clothed with the incorruptible. It is what we do with it that divides our opinions. Nothing in itself is evil other than the evil one.

We simply do not know Christ after the things of the evil generation, the generation of man… who according to their oral tradition must walk by sight as if God was a man as us. Flesh and blood as rudiments of this temporal world is not something we could know Christ after.


Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not afterChrist.

The flesh of he Son of man is that which did not propfit because it could not it was subject to aging in a decaying process leading back to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was taken from just as you or I

 

[Bogadile]

God is not a man as us.(impossible)

Everything seen is corrupted and has to do with the temporal. And the generation of Christ the invisible church, it is why without parables Christ spoke not hiding the spiritual eternal not seen , the faith principle used in parables

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


He corrupted the whole creation that groans to be clothed with the incorruptible. It is what we do with it that divides our opinions. Nothing in itself is evil other than the evil one.

We simply do not know Christ after the things of the evil generation, the generation of man… who according to their oral tradition must walk by sight as if God was a man as us. Flesh and blood as rudiments of this temporal world is not something we could know Christ after.


Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not afterChrist.

The flesh of he Son of man is that which did not propfit because it could not it was subject to aging in a decaying process leading back to the lifeless, spiritless dust it was taken from just as you or I

More gnosticism. Are you denying the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ?