The reason for conflicting dogmas.
- Thread starter louis
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The whole world is in reference to all the kingdoms every person not just the Jewish kingdom that has the law of God the qualifier .Where some would think it was a Jewish religion. The elect that acknowledges God is no longer bringing any new revelation will not be deceived as the rest of the world. Christ is the savoir of the whole world yet that does not mean unilateralism.
ultimately the elect will not be deceived in the way the whole world is.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
ultimately the elect will not be deceived in the way the whole world is.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Righteousness is the effect of the work of Christ's faith working in us to both will and do his good pleasure .When we sin we have a advocate. The better thing that accompanies salvation..
Righteousness is synonymous with faith in what Christ worked out. We cannot have the the righteousness of Christ without the labor of His love.
No man could be fond with a righteousness of their own self. For if any man says he has not sinned and continues to fall short of the glory of God, they make God out to be the liar. Falling short of the glory of God (sinning )is what liars do as soon as they are born .We let God be true and every man a lair.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I agree, but do you understand what rejecting Christ is?
It is the rejecting of the faith Christ had which hits its mark.
If one rejects believing in love, mercy, justice, truth,..., and instead continually chooses to believe in missing the mark (sin), then that persons faith in Christ is less than one who has never heard of the Way of Christ.
That individual will receive more lashes than the one who never heard of the Way to target. (Luke 12:46-48)
Luke 12:46 [FONT="]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.[/FONT][FONT="]47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.[/FONT]
[FONT="]48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/FONT]
It is the rejecting of the faith Christ had which hits its mark.
If one rejects believing in love, mercy, justice, truth,..., and instead continually chooses to believe in missing the mark (sin), then that persons faith in Christ is less than one who has never heard of the Way of Christ.
That individual will receive more lashes than the one who never heard of the Way to target. (Luke 12:46-48)
Luke 12:46 [FONT="]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.[/FONT][FONT="]47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.[/FONT]
[FONT="]48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/FONT]
How could one not overcome if the one wage of sin (eternal damnation)is atoned for?
Sounds like you are trying to reduce the eternal wage of sin in order to make it manageable for a sinner? The Catholics perform that because they also think Christ provided less then the fullness of his grace .That he suffered a unknown amount and installments can be paid weekly and if then not enough it off to Limbo and Purgatory to finish what some say Christ did not finish.
If God would take into account one wrong suffered how could anyone stand before His throne of grace and receive mercy?
The over comers that are clothed in His righteousness have the one wage of sin atoned for. its the better thing that accompanies salvation.
Salvation is not a kick start placing a person where Adam and Eve were before they violated one commandment )
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
We do not work in order to pay the eternal wage of sin .Because Christ in God has worked it out (the eternal) between the Father and the Son we have all the confidence ones need to stand at His throne of mercy and receive grace he cast the the eternal wage of sin away from us as far as the east is from the West.
Sounds like you might be one of those in the Hebrew 6 boat who thinks Christ needs to be crucified again and again ,over and over.
Christ's work of faith as a labor of His love hit the mark .It pleased the father to bruise Him with his stripes we are healed of the eternal debt.
No man could be found with a righteousness of their own self.(self righteousness)
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we "are healed".
If we believe in the Way of Christ, which is to believe in loving God and ones neighbor, which is the same as believing in truth, justice, mercy, and more, then ones sins will have been atoned for, because that individual knows God who is love, and God knows him.
If one does not believe in the Way of Christ, then that person does not know God, and God does not know him.
Matthew 7:22 [FONT="]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/FONT][FONT="]23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/FONT]
If one does not believe in the Way of Christ, then that person does not know God, and God does not know him.
Matthew 7:22 [FONT="]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/FONT][FONT="]23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/FONT]
The gift of righteousness is given not earned. We can't behave our way into the gift of righteousness. We simply receive the gift and it's ours by right of the Giver who gives it to all those whosoever will. Just as if you're a person dying of thirst and the caregiver brings you a cup of water... all you do is open your mouth and receive the water right?
In the natural world we can't have someone else's righteousness put on us. We have to earn it by our own good behavior that earns us that good reputation of our right standing in society. But in Christ., He imputes His righteousness upon us undeserving fallen sinners and makes us part of the beloved of God based on His good name and behavior which is perfection.
This relationship in Christ is unlike any other and must go through this channel (Jesus) or it is not the righteousness of God IN Christ. 2 Cor.5:21 [SUP]21 [/SUP]For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [[SUP][a][/SUP]endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness].
Actually, both of you could also be correct, depending on the principle being discussed.
Let's take a "hot topic" right now.... celebrating Christmas...
There are those who say it is a sin to celebrate Christmas... and they are correct. (for themselves)
Others say it is NOT a sin to celebrate Christmas.... and they are also correct. (for themselves)
Both sides are correct, as both sides are following their conscience. That is scripturally correct.
Let's take a "hot topic" right now.... celebrating Christmas...
There are those who say it is a sin to celebrate Christmas... and they are correct. (for themselves)
Others say it is NOT a sin to celebrate Christmas.... and they are also correct. (for themselves)
Both sides are correct, as both sides are following their conscience. That is scripturally correct.
Amen! Our righteous standing after 1st receiving our salvation is still the very same as it was the moment we received it. We do not become "more" righteous by adding to the 1st righteousness we got. That gift given by Jesus is all the righteousness we need to stand before God now and forever.
We can't get anymore righteous than Jesus made us when He imputed His righteousness to us. That is why we always always can receive grace and help in time of need. We never have to shy away from Him even after we daily fall short in our actions while here on earth as we are learning to be more like Jesus., we have His righteousness that makes us worthy to stand.
In ourselves and in our own earth suit strength we can't be righteous., but in Christ we take it by grace through faith that Jesus is our Advocate at all times ever making intersession for the us (the saints)
He is going to bear the marks on His hands and feet and side forever as a testimony of what He did for us. Why does He do this? He certainly doesn't have to since His Word on the matter is enough but for reasons only the Godhead knows., It is His will to bear the marks forever.
So it's my opinion this gift He gave must be very important for Him to keep the evidences of it before us for eternity. So it must be especially vital to our survival here on earth to remember to apply faith in His finished work for us to be victorious. We keep on growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus. We live each day by grace through faith. In heaven we won't need faith like we do now., we will not have to exercise our faith in heaven.
Last edited:
My apologies for not checking this thread for so long.
I do appreciate the skillfulness of the enemy to deceive, and I think it very unwise of people to think that "Just because I'm a Christian, I'm safe" and also to teach others "You don't need to seek God. It's OPTIONAL now that you're a Christian. No real NEED to prepare (or gather oil)."
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if {it were} possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I'm not a linguist to be able to study the Greek, but words like "it were" that are italicized in the KJV were noted as being added "to make the meaning clearer"...but I think they got it wrong in this case because I think the meaning is clearer without the "it were". (yes, I realize others think differently).
Adding the "it were" gives the impression of "If it were possible, but it's not" (which discounts any need for preparation) and also necessitates changing the phrase "they SHALL deceive" to "they WOULD deceive". But if you leave out the added "it were" then it reads "if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Which means that even the very elect better take heed and prepare.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I do appreciate the skillfulness of the enemy to deceive, and I think it very unwise of people to think that "Just because I'm a Christian, I'm safe" and also to teach others "You don't need to seek God. It's OPTIONAL now that you're a Christian. No real NEED to prepare (or gather oil)."
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if {it were} possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I'm not a linguist to be able to study the Greek, but words like "it were" that are italicized in the KJV were noted as being added "to make the meaning clearer"...but I think they got it wrong in this case because I think the meaning is clearer without the "it were". (yes, I realize others think differently).
Adding the "it were" gives the impression of "If it were possible, but it's not" (which discounts any need for preparation) and also necessitates changing the phrase "they SHALL deceive" to "they WOULD deceive". But if you leave out the added "it were" then it reads "if possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Which means that even the very elect better take heed and prepare.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Well-spoken. 
Aside from the 10 virgin teaching I totally can agree with you here without study. Some say the virgins are Israel and others say they are believers who are not ready with oil in their lamps and Jesus won't let them in. I know it's not believes since all who are His will be allowed in. So the other interpretations I need to study out before agreeing.
Joaniemarie,
It's not just the 10 virgins story that makes that point. And I'm adding a disclaimer here (before saying it) that you'll want to start praying and asking God "Is that really SO?!" because God has a way of showing the good side of what WE might see as a terrible, frightening and only-evil thing.
Consider this initially frightful thought:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
It's a warning to them that if they don't continue in his goodness, they shall be cut off. You do realize that a person HAS to be part of the tree before they can be cut off from it, right?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Aside from the 10 virgin teaching I totally can agree with you here without study.
Some say the virgins are Israel and others say they are believers who are not ready with oil in their lamps and Jesus won't let them in. I know it's not believes since all who are His will be allowed in. So the other interpretations I need to study out before agreeing.
It's not just the 10 virgins story that makes that point. And I'm adding a disclaimer here (before saying it) that you'll want to start praying and asking God "Is that really SO?!" because God has a way of showing the good side of what WE might see as a terrible, frightening and only-evil thing.
Consider this initially frightful thought:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
It's a warning to them that if they don't continue in his goodness, they shall be cut off. You do realize that a person HAS to be part of the tree before they can be cut off from it, right?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Well-spoken.
Joaniemarie,
It's not just the 10 virgins story that makes that point. And I'm adding a disclaimer here (before saying it) that you'll want to start praying and asking God "Is that really SO?!" because God has a way of showing the good side of what WE might see as a terrible, frightening and only-evil thing.
Consider this initially frightful thought:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
It's a warning to them that if they don't continue in his goodness, they shall be cut off. You do realize that a person HAS to be part of the tree before they can be cut off from it, right?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Joaniemarie,
It's not just the 10 virgins story that makes that point. And I'm adding a disclaimer here (before saying it) that you'll want to start praying and asking God "Is that really SO?!" because God has a way of showing the good side of what WE might see as a terrible, frightening and only-evil thing.
Consider this initially frightful thought:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
It's a warning to them that if they don't continue in his goodness, they shall be cut off. You do realize that a person HAS to be part of the tree before they can be cut off from it, right?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I forgot this thread was still going until it appeared on my email. Hi Kelby., I like Bible commentary so much because it gives the long explanation we wish we could give if we the time so I'll post part of some here below. There must be a security in our salvation that is not based on us because as we know., we are not dependable.
Our intentions are good often enough but our ability to do all of our intentions is majorly lacking. Stuff happens beyond our control even when we try very hard we often miss the mark yes, even us Christians. That is why Hebrews 6:17-21 tells about our strong consolation is in Christ and not in ourselves.
Please let me know what you think of the commentary below. Blessings to you too.
(Paul never says the Christian will be cut off. You are the body of Christ and Jesus doesn’t self-amputate.) AMEN
Whenever I tell people about God’s goodness, I can just about guarantee that someone will call for balance and say I should also preach on God’s severity. Then they will quote this verse:
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Rom 11:22, NKJV)
“You see, God is kind, but he’s also severe, so watch yourself! God has given you a chance to repent, but now you have to prove you were worth it by getting your act together, otherwise it’s the chop for you!”
And we wonder why unbelievers don’t get excited about this so-called gospel!
In my ongoing series on eternal security, I have maintained that we are saved by grace and kept by grace. Your eternal security rests on God’s promises, not your behavior. But, the insecure don’t believe it. They read the above passage and worry that they will be cut off if they fail to continue in the Lord’s kindness.
How do you continue? The insecure are uncertain, but it probably has something to do with working hard, being good, and hoping for the best. But look at what Paul says:
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. (Rom 11:19)
This is about belief not behavior, faith not works. “They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.” Continuing in God’s goodness is less about working and more about trusting. But I am getting ahead of myself. Before we go further we need to ask an an important question:
Who is Paul talking about?
Who are the “they” that were broken off and who are the “you” that were grafted it? Paul is not speaking about individuals and he is not speaking about the church. He is talking about Jews and Gentiles:
Concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” … I am talking to you
Gentiles. (Rom 10:21, 11:13)
The nation of Israel, as a group, was broken off and the Gentiles, as a group, were grafted in. The Jews had been shown favor from the Lord but they did not receive it (although certain individual Jews had, such as Paul himself). God reached out to the Jews in love but they gave him the cold shoulder. Now God’s favor is also extended to the Gentiles.
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him. (Rom 10:12)
God’s kindness refers to his unmerited favor or grace which comes to us through Jesus:
In order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:7)
To continue in kindness is to continue in grace which is to continue in Christ.
As a nation, the Jews stumbled in unbelief. But the grace of God is for the whole world. Hence Paul says, “Don’t boast over the Jews – you Gentiles have a window of opportunity, like they did, and it won’t last forever. Receive God’s goodness! Receive Jesus! Confess him as Lord (Rom 10:9). Clothe yourself with Christ (Rom 13:14).”
What about God’s severity?
Here is the wrong way to interpret the severity passage: “I need to work hard for God and keep 100% of his commands to avoid getting cut off.” That’s what the Jews thought and it led to their downfall. By betting on their performance they rejected God’s grace.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. (Rom 11:6)
At the start of his letter to the Romans, Paul says everyone receives one of two gifts from the Lord. We either receive the free gift of his righteousness that comes by faith (Rom 1:17), or we receive, through hard-nosed and stubborn unbelief, the unwanted gift of his wrath (Rom 1:18). The Jews, as a group, had chosen the bad gift (Rom 10:21). We do well to choose the good one.
Who is in danger of being cut off?
Not those who are joined to the Lord.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28)
The insecure thinks, “If I can graft myself in through belief, then I can cut myself off through unbelief.” To this I respond, “You are saved by Jesus and kept by Jesus. You are one with the Lord and what God has joined together, no man can tear apart.”
“But what if I stop continuing in his kindness.” Paul answers that question when he talks about the importance of continuing in the faith. Although there are consequences to not continuing, Paul never says the Christian will be cut off. You are the body of Christ and Jesus doesn’t self-amputate.
Continue in his kindness, otherwise, you also will be cut off. (Rom 11:22)
.
[FONT="]
Remember, Paul is addressing groups – Jews and Gentiles – not individuals. He clarifies this in the next two verses: “And if the Jews… You Gentiles…” (Rom 11:23-24, GNB). The Jews, as a group, were written off even as individual Jews, such as he and all the apostles, were grafted in through faith. Similarly, the Gentiles as a group have benefited from the kindness of God, but individual Gentiles may yet miss out through unbelief.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
None of this talk about being cut off from Christ applies to Christians. But don’t take my word for it. Here is the Believer’s Bible Commentary:[/FONT]
[FONT="]
It must be constantly borne in mind that Paul is not speaking of the church or of individual believers. He is speaking about the Gentiles as such. Nothing can ever separate the Body of Christ from the Head, and nothing can separate a believer from the love of God…[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans 11 is a warning to those who, like the Jews, stubbornly refuse the grace and goodness of God. Reject his blessings and you’ll curse yourself. This should not frighten the believer. Although the Gentiles as a group may receive or miss out on God’s grace, the body of Christ will never, ever experience the sternness or severity of God. It’s one or the other, not both. Don’t let anyone curse what God has blessed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans is good news for the believer![/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans 11 has been used to sow fear and terror into the children of God. It has been twisted into a works-based message of conditional salvation that is a million miles from Paul’s heart. We would not fall for this nonsense if we had an assurance of our Father’s love and grace. If only Paul had given us such an assurance. He does![/FONT]
[FONT="]
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. (Rom 8:15-16)[/FONT]
[FONT="]
The Holy Spirit says you belong to your heavenly Father and you are his dearly beloved child. If a sermon on Romans 11 fills you with fear, you can be sure that the spirit behind it is not the Holy Spirit. If Romans 11 scares you, read Romans 8.
[/FONT]
Remember, Paul is addressing groups – Jews and Gentiles – not individuals. He clarifies this in the next two verses: “And if the Jews… You Gentiles…” (Rom 11:23-24, GNB). The Jews, as a group, were written off even as individual Jews, such as he and all the apostles, were grafted in through faith. Similarly, the Gentiles as a group have benefited from the kindness of God, but individual Gentiles may yet miss out through unbelief.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
None of this talk about being cut off from Christ applies to Christians. But don’t take my word for it. Here is the Believer’s Bible Commentary:[/FONT]
[FONT="]
It must be constantly borne in mind that Paul is not speaking of the church or of individual believers. He is speaking about the Gentiles as such. Nothing can ever separate the Body of Christ from the Head, and nothing can separate a believer from the love of God…[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans 11 is a warning to those who, like the Jews, stubbornly refuse the grace and goodness of God. Reject his blessings and you’ll curse yourself. This should not frighten the believer. Although the Gentiles as a group may receive or miss out on God’s grace, the body of Christ will never, ever experience the sternness or severity of God. It’s one or the other, not both. Don’t let anyone curse what God has blessed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans is good news for the believer![/FONT]
[FONT="]
Romans 11 has been used to sow fear and terror into the children of God. It has been twisted into a works-based message of conditional salvation that is a million miles from Paul’s heart. We would not fall for this nonsense if we had an assurance of our Father’s love and grace. If only Paul had given us such an assurance. He does![/FONT]
[FONT="]
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. (Rom 8:15-16)[/FONT]
[FONT="]
The Holy Spirit says you belong to your heavenly Father and you are his dearly beloved child. If a sermon on Romans 11 fills you with fear, you can be sure that the spirit behind it is not the Holy Spirit. If Romans 11 scares you, read Romans 8.
[/FONT]
I can agree with your point of view, as even Paul testifies a similar perspective in Romans 14:20-23.
Romans 14:20 [FONT="]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.[/FONT][FONT="]21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.[/FONT]
Romans 14:20 [FONT="]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.[/FONT][FONT="]21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.[/FONT]
