The second coming of Jesus

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,481
2,024
113
#61
John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

come on, it's easy to understand it. the sleep here means dead
In The eyes of Jesus, he really sleep until that day resurrection.
The above doesn't mean that every believe will be dead when the resurrection takes place! There will be living believers at that time who will not have died. And since they are not dead, they will be changed immortal and glorified and will meet those who resurrected, in the clouds. That scripture is just talking about Lazarus who had died and was then resurrected by the Lord. By the way, Lazarus was not resurrected in his immortal and glorified body, for he died again. His spirit is currently in heaven waiting for the resurrection of his body.

Sleep referred to in the scriptures is referring to the body. At the time of death for the believer, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When those who are not in Christ die, their spirits depart and go down into Hades where they begin their punishment in torment in flame, as revealed in the event of the rich man and Lazarus.

Jesus is a good example of this. After He died, His spirit departed and went down into Hades. Three days later, His spirit returned to His body and He resurrected.

1-Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
The very example that you used above is why the living believers must be changed immortal and glorified because this perishable body cannot inherit heaven. Therefore, those who are still alive at the Lord's coming must be changed immortal and glorified.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#62
Then you haven't understood the following scripture:

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For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
================================================

According to the above, the Lord descends from heaven and those who will have died in Christ will rise first. Then immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. This is supported right in the scripture which says:

"After that (their resurrected), we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."




We've already seen in scripture others who have been taken up without first dying, as Enoch & Elijah never died a physical death.

The appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and the living being changed and gathered to Him, is the Blessed Hope. It's what Jesus told all living believers to be watching for, because when the resurrection takes place, those in Christ will not experience physical death, but will be changed immortal and glorified and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The scripture above makes that perfectly clear. Read it! You can't misinterpret it. The other scripture in I Corinthians 15:51-53 also speaks about those in Christ who are still alive being changed and caught up:

================================================
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
===============================================

So, as the scripture above states, we will not all be sleeping, i.e. we will not all be dead, but we (those living) will also be changed immortal and glorified.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, is the event that every Christian should be looking forward to and anticipating. We don't have died before in order to be caught up. Those who have died, their spirits are awaiting for their resurrection from heaven. We who are still alive, are waiting for the Lord's appearing so that we can be changed immortal and glorified. Regarding this, you have the following promise:

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In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
=============================================

So, when the dead are raised and the living are changed and caught up with them, the Lord will then take His entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. This is the promise that all believers are watching for. If you're not watching for this event, then you are not heeding the Lord's word, which is to watch.

How do you think the living believers would escape the coming wrath of God? Not all believers in Christ are going to be dead when the Lord appears? It is those living who will be changed and caught up.
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

but not one of us.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#63
P.S do you really fear the dead and hope god take you before you dead ?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
63
#64
1-Thessalonians

4:15
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

4:16
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

4:18
Therefore encourage each other with these words.

the
. r
. e
. is
. no
. such
. thing
. as
. raptrue
. before
. you
. sleep
. and
. dead
. in

. christ
John 11:25-26. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The rapture happens after we die.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
63
#65
Well, in my eyes you are a false prophet, if you claim that Jesus already has come for his 2nd coming.
When does Jesus say He would return??? Does He provide a time frame?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,481
2,024
113
#66
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

but not one of us.
Do you understand the meaning of "We will not all be dead, but we will all be changed?" And "the dead will be raised imperishable and we (those still alive in Christ) will be changed and caught up with them.

"We shall not all be dead, means that there will be living believers when the Lord comes to gather His church. Those who have already died in Christ will resurrect first. And then we who believers who are still alive will be changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At this point, the entire church will be in the same place at the same time, in their immortal and glorified bodies, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, which is in heaven. Following that will be the emergence of the antichrist and the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye

the dead will be raised imperishable, and we (the living) will be changed
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
1,477
313
83
#68
John 11:25-26. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The rapture happens after we die.
The rapture happens after we die.[/QUOTE]

Can you expound on this comment?
Thanks!
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
1,477
313
83
#69
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

but not one of us.
but not one of us.[/QUOTE]

Can you expound on this comment as well?
Thanks!
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#70
but not one of us.
Can you expound on this comment as well?
Thanks![/QUOTE]
We will not all sleep,but not one of us

Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
63
#71
The rapture happens after we die.
Can you expound on this comment?
Thanks![/QUOTE]

Yes. I believe Paul assumed his audience understood that one must die before going to heaven when he wrote 1 Thes 4:17. Thus, I believe Paul was saying that for those who outlived the resurrection, or were not yet born, would be caught up (harpazo "raptured") with those who were resurrected, when they die, thus they meet the Lord in the air (heaven).

The resurrection is not about returning to one's flesh body and seeing that body transformed. Christ's body was the only one not to see corruption (Acts 2) the rest of our bodies are corrupt, they return to dust, and they can NEVER inherit incorruption. The resurrection is "from the dead." The dead were found in Hades. Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection meaning He was the first to leave Hades. He returned to His body, and appeared to many, to prove He rose again. The rest of us won't do that. When we die, we leave this physical realm and enter the spiritual realm immediately.

Thus on the last day of the Jewish age, the resurrection took place. There are no believers in Hades today. Christ defeated spiritual death which is separation from God, and restored all things. He took all the OT saints to heaven. There is no teaching of disembodied souls. Those in Hades could see, feel pain, talk, etc. You need a body for that. Both Peter and Paul taught that our flesh bodies are tents covering our spiritual body.

If you look at all other passages which deal with the resurrection, you will not see a rapture of living people. This idea is only found in one place (1 Thes 4:17). We have multiple passages that state we must die first, including the two I already provided. There is no teaching of a mass rapture event of living people. This teaching in the church is false. The rapture is an individual event, it happens to each of us when we die. There is no more going to Hades, we go straight to heaven, absent from the body, present with the Lord.

To prove the rapture is a singular event and not a one-time mass event we only need to look at 2 Cor 12:2. Here we have a man (Paul perhaps) who was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. Clearly this was a singular rapture. Jesus never even hinted at a rapture of living people. This notion never existed in the church until 1830. Jesus provides the timing of the resurrection in Luke 20. The resurrection was for those of the last age.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Early church father, Ignatius (40 - 108 AD), was a friend of Polycarp and the Apostle John. In his letter to the Magnesians, he states this:

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,353
6,702
113
#72
The rapture happens after we die.
That is a TOTAL MISREPRESENTATION of the Rapture. When Christians die, their bodies go into their graves, while their souls and spirits go directly to Heaven to be with the Lord. This is simply physical death. But at the Resurrection/Rapture, those who died in Christ receive immortal glorified bodies, and those who are still alive at that time are totally transformed and glorified.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,353
6,702
113
#73
To prove the rapture is a singular event and not a one-time mass event
Why are you so keen on disproving the Resurrection/Rapture? Who benefits from your nonsensical interpretations?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,481
2,024
113
#75
1. Thess. 4, 15-17, time frame? From now on, every day possible.
It has been imminent ever since it was written. Paul even included himself in that group that would be living, changed and caught up.

But you are correct! It is imminent, on the horizon, looming, in the workings, about to take place, etc.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#77
I do not need you to judge me, but God judges me. Daydream,
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#78
The bible says no one knows the day and the hour about Jesus second coming,but only farther knows.
But that day has come
I know the day and Hour ,2008=2+0+0+8=10.10.10 am 12
十 is ten in Chinese
10.10.10
十 十 十
Jesus disaster Friday
And two other people were crucified in the day,so there were three cross in that day.
that day 2008.10.10 AM12:00 IS Friday,
View attachment 220248
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
I have no knowledge of astronomy. I can't fake it. Why can't you see it?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#79
Luke 12:54-57
Interpreting the Time He also said to the crowds, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, ‘A shower is coming.’ And so it happens. And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, ‘There will be scorching heat,’ and it happens. You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?Settle with Your Accuser “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? (ESV)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
63
#80
1. Thess. 4, 15-17, time frame? From now on, every day possible.
No. He gives many hints. Here are some of them.

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Mat 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Mat 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


Then we have all the verses telling first century people to watch, wait and be ready. There would be no need for them to be ready and to watch if His return would be thousands of years later. One of the key problems futurists have is they fail to understand the nature of His return and the purpose for it.