The second coming of Jesus

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Christianity was in the beginning, so which falling away from Christians should be meant?
It wasn't to be the falling away of the Church or Christians. It was the falling away of the Jews. Where do you get the idea that it was the Church? The text doesn't say that. Judgment against the church isn't found anywhere. Judgment against Apostate Israel is found EVERYWHERE!!!!
lol, It says "...we offer sacrifices twice every day for Caesar,and for the Roman people...ect." not to Caesar. So their saying that they were making sacrifice to God(the Almighty) for Caesar(his behalf) and the Roman people the same as they were being offered for all Israel. Your misunderstanding "for" and think it means to.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Titus and the pagan ensigns were worshiped at the temple and Titus showed to be as god where he decides who lives and dies. It also doesn't change the fact that the Caesars claimed god-like status throughout the empire.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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It wasn't to be the falling away of the Church or Christians. It was the falling away of the Jews. Where do you get the idea that it was the Church? The text doesn't say that. Judgment against the church isn't found anywhere. Judgment against Apostate Israel is found EVERYWHERE!!!!

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Titus and the pagan ensigns were worshiped at the temple and Titus showed to be as god where he decides who lives and dies. It also doesn't change the fact that the Caesars claimed god-like status throughout the empire.

It shows that the Jews did not worship the image,That they died(like they said they would) to keep them from polluting the Temple with their images. It also has that the ones who "did worship" those ensigns(wars,6.6.1) did so after the Temple was burnt(not before) by Romans(not the Jews), and win/won the war. Do the ones that worship the image,receive the mark,have the name ect. win the war at the coming of our Lord or do they loose according the Scripture?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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It shows that the Jews did not worship the image,That they died(like they said they would) to keep them from polluting the Temple with their images. It also has that the ones who "did worship" those ensigns(wars,6.6.1) did so after the Temple was burnt(not before) by Romans(not the Jews), and win/won the war. Do the ones that worship the image,receive the mark,have the name ect. win the war at the coming of our Lord or do they loose according the Scripture?
It appears you are conflating two separate passages and events. Rev 13 and 2 Thes 2 do not go together although they are related in time. 2 Thes 2 starts off talking about the Day of Christ. But before the Day of Christ can come, Apostate Israel falls away from the faith. The falling away can be religious or political. I've been assuming that the Jews grew increasingly wicked right up to their destruction but there is another possibility that may work better. The falling away may more accurately be their rebellion against Rome.

The “rebellion” or apostasia of v. 3 as a rebellion certainly fits. For example, Josephus calls Israel’s rebellion against Rome during the Jewish War an apostasia (Josephus Life 4.9.10; The Wars of the Jews 2.2.7; 2.16.4; 7.4.2; 7.6.1). Though there was certainly a religious falling away or rebellion which led to Israel’s punishment at the end of the age during the Jewish War, the apostasy or rebellion of v.3 had not transpired at the time of 2 Thessalonians composition so this apostasia or rebellion could not be Israel’s first century religious apostasy as the sin for which the Jews were punished had begun long before 2 Thessalonians 2 was written and was on going and cumulative (Mt 23:35-36). The apostasy or rebellion mentioned in this verse is more likely Israel’s apostasy or rebellion against Rome in A.D. 66 which brought about the Jewish War, the day of the Lord.

Now let's deal with Titus, the Man of Sin, the Man of Destruction. Let's look at YLT version where he is also called the son of destruction. Titus certainly fits this description:

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshiped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

So, what does the Man of Sin do?

1. He opposes and raises himself up above all called God or worshiped.
- This was true of all the Caesars.

2. He goes into the sanctuary of God (Holy of Holies).
- Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. War 6-4-7, "And now, since Caesar was no way able to restrain the enthusiastic fury of the soldiers, and the fire proceeded on more and more, he went into the holy place of the temple, with his commanders, and saw it..."

3. He shows himself off that he is God.
- Josephus says that these ensigns were worshiped by the Romans in the Jewish Temple! This is idolatrous worship and nothing in 2 Thes 2 says it would be Jews doing the worshiping. When Titus’ image on the numina legionum was set up in the Temple and worshiped as a god we can see how clearly Titus “displayed himself as a god” in explicit fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Later we are told the Man of Sin deceives and those he deceives, perish. We can cover this deception later if you are still not convinced. The short of it is, Titus does everything Paul credits the Man of Sin for doing. If the Man of Sin is future, a new temple is required and another invasion of Israel must take place. The flavor of Paul's second letter was, "Not yet, but soon." He gives no indication that the Day of Christ (Period of Divine Judgment) is thousands of years off.

Revelation 13 is about the adulterous affair between Jerusalem and Rome - their codependent sick alliance that existed BEFORE their destruction.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
113
It appears you are conflating two separate passages and events. Rev 13 and 2 Thes 2 do not go together although they are related in time. 2 Thes 2 starts off talking about the Day of Christ. But before the Day of Christ can come, Apostate Israel falls away from the faith. The falling away can be religious or political. I've been assuming that the Jews grew increasingly wicked right up to their destruction but there is another possibility that may work better. The falling away may more accurately be their rebellion against Rome.

The “rebellion” or apostasia of v. 3 as a rebellion certainly fits. For example, Josephus calls Israel’s rebellion against Rome during the Jewish War an apostasia (Josephus Life 4.9.10; The Wars of the Jews 2.2.7; 2.16.4; 7.4.2; 7.6.1). Though there was certainly a religious falling away or rebellion which led to Israel’s punishment at the end of the age during the Jewish War, the apostasy or rebellion of v.3 had not transpired at the time of 2 Thessalonians composition so this apostasia or rebellion could not be Israel’s first century religious apostasy as the sin for which the Jews were punished had begun long before 2 Thessalonians 2 was written and was on going and cumulative (Mt 23:35-36). The apostasy or rebellion mentioned in this verse is more likely Israel’s apostasy or rebellion against Rome in A.D. 66 which brought about the Jewish War, the day of the Lord.

Now let's deal with Titus, the Man of Sin, the Man of Destruction. Let's look at YLT version where he is also called the son of destruction. Titus certainly fits this description:

3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshiped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

So, what does the Man of Sin do?

1. He opposes and raises himself up above all called God or worshiped.
- This was true of all the Caesars.

2. He goes into the sanctuary of God (Holy of Holies).
- Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. War 6-4-7, "And now, since Caesar was no way able to restrain the enthusiastic fury of the soldiers, and the fire proceeded on more and more, he went into the holy place of the temple, with his commanders, and saw it..."

3. He shows himself off that he is God.
- Josephus says that these ensigns were worshiped by the Romans in the Jewish Temple! This is idolatrous worship and nothing in 2 Thes 2 says it would be Jews doing the worshiping. When Titus’ image on the numina legionum was set up in the Temple and worshiped as a god we can see how clearly Titus “displayed himself as a god” in explicit fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Later we are told the Man of Sin deceives and those he deceives, perish. We can cover this deception later if you are still not convinced. The short of it is, Titus does everything Paul credits the Man of Sin for doing. If the Man of Sin is future, a new temple is required and another invasion of Israel must take place. The flavor of Paul's second letter was, "Not yet, but soon." He gives no indication that the Day of Christ (Period of Divine Judgment) is thousands of years off.

Revelation 13 is about the adulterous affair between Jerusalem and Rome - their codependent sick alliance that existed BEFORE their destruction.

I didn't mention 2 Thess. at all it must be another poster your thinking of. The important thing to notice(I think you do) is that the Jews did not worship Caesar,the ensigns ect.ect as God.... the rest will fall together with more thought on this. Here is more in support that the Jews did not worship the image,Rome,their ensigns ect. but instead saw them as pagan and Caesar as nothing more than a man. See chapter 8 of this book http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-18.html
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I didn't mention 2 Thess. at all it must be another poster your thinking of. The important thing to notice(I think you do) is that the Jews did not worship Caesar,the ensigns ect.ect as God.... the rest will fall together with more thought on this. Here is more in support that the Jews did not worship the image,Rome,their ensigns ect. but instead saw them as pagan and Caesar as nothing more than a man. See chapter 8 of this book http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-18.html
Who suggested that the Jews worshiped the Roman ensigns? I don't think I did and I don't think the Bible does either. I assumed you were referring to 2 Thes 2. If not, which passage are you discussing?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
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Who suggested that the Jews worshiped the Roman ensigns? I don't think I did and I don't think the Bible does either. I assumed you were referring to 2 Thes 2. If not, which passage are you discussing?

Revelation 13:15-18 and Revelation 19:21,,,,at the second coming the ones who do this are killed,removed and no longer exist. The Jews did not according to the proofs shown of that time frame by Josephus and those who did worship Caesar and the ensigns,(the Romans) still existed,were in power and continued to worship them after ad70.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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about Covid-19

The miracle of Jesus that cure disease means The sinner is the patient , Jesus could heal sinners ,not means We don't get sick.

First the apostles,After that is medical skill.

Jesus does have the ability to cure disease, but that's not the point.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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The miracle of Jesus that cure disease means The sinner is the patient , Jesus could heal sinners ,not means We don't get sick.

First the apostles,After that is medical skill.
True 'nuff...

2 Timothy 4:20 (KJV) Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,Bring sin to our flesh body.If we eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we can be flawless.Then the words described in the Ten Commandments will not appear such as Thou shalt not commit adultery, nor steal, nor kill.The law prohibiting sin acts can not solve the problem of sin at all.For sin has been brought into our blood body through the fruit of good and evil knowledge.So the New Testament says that the Old Testament is flaw.Obey the ten commandments is act of law,work of law,This should be justified by behavior.
But it is actually justified by the act of believing in God.

The New Testament is different, The New Testament is used to fullfill the law,The New Testament describes better things.The use of repentant words in place of the Old Testament law describes the fetters of sin.Free our flesh from sin.And the whole law included in love others as yourself. just like computer programs,Fundamentally solve BUG forever.Believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior.believes in The law of love,work of faith, justification by faith.

The first heaven,The work of the law ( act ) thirtyfold.
The second heaven,The work of faith (believe) sixtyfold
The third heaven,The work of holy spirits (Spiritual) hundredfold

The second heaven is spiritual to the first heaven which is flesh.
The third heaven is spiritual to the second heaven which is flesh.

The flesh is flawed, Only spiritual without defect.

In the name of father, son and holy spirits, Amen.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

as a thief, The simple understanding is that you didn't know the thief was here.

If Jesus appears in China during the day, then in America it is night.

Believe me, I'm not crazy,I'm serious.

I need your help, the help is not money,Help me deliver a message.

Let me say something more in detail,I knew that I saw him, maybe others can't saw him, maybe others can saw him, but they were busy on the way to make money, and didn't look up to the sky.
After that,another day.I saw cars coming and going on the road,There was a bottomless pit in the middle of the road,The pit looks very dark as not accepting light, but I still saw cars could passing on the road,It's like there's no bottomless pit at all.I could saw people working on the side of the bottomless pit with modern tools which is the drills used by road builders.

I mean, God can raise up children for Abraham out of stone.What I saw is something like this.Almighty god.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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2 Peter 3:10KJV 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night
I have scrolled through this entire thread just now, and it has little or nothing to say about the Second Coming of Christ. Yet that is one of the most important doctrines of Scripture. And it was Enoch, the seventh from Adam, who first spoke of the Second Coming:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

This corresponds to Revelation 1:7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And this is further developed in Revelation 19. It is important to note that at His first coming, Christ came as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29). But when He comes the second time, He comes as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and as the Judge of the world, to destroy the enemies of God, Christ, and Christians. This is revealed in many passages including 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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Jesus said to them, "the son of man has not come to destroy anyone's life, but to save it."
Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, and at first they did not believe.
I don't know why these words in the Bible don't fit in with now.Maybe it's a misunderstanding of biblical words that leads you to think that's not the case.
I only know that he came to judge the world, which I heard ten million of sounds says to me. The sounds came from where I can't saw.

I don't think we can just take out one sentence of the Bible,but Understand the whole Bible.

Jesus said love is great in the kingdom of heaven.love is patient.Endure those who do not believe until they believe in the truth.

If you don't believe that Jesus has come, how can those who don't believe believe it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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If you don't believe that Jesus has come, how can those who don't believe believe it.
Jesus has come, finished His work of redemption, and returned to Heaven. But He is presently seated at the right hand of the Father. The Father and the Son have sent the Holy Spirit to earth, and He has many ministries, including the drawing of sinners to the Savior. The day will come when He is "taken out of the way" and then the Antichrist and Satan will have full control of the earth for 3 1/2 years.

But following the Tribulation and Great Tribulation, Christ will literally return with all His saints and angels to bring judgment upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. After that He will set up His Kingdom -- the Kingdom of God -- on earth. It will be literal, both physical and spiritual, both tangible and visible, and Christ will reign with His saints from then on.
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Babylon
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

If I didn't tell you that Jesus has come and you won't know the day and time, how do you know it's in the future?

Why not put yourself in the position of thinking? If I didn't see it, did I need to waste my time on something? What's the benefit for me?(for lies ? for money ? for what ?)
It's also written that he will come with the shout of an arc angel and the blast of a trumpet, and the dead will rise and we will all be caught up to meet him in the clouds.
So all those things didn't happen so he hasn't returned.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

as a thief, The simple understanding is that you didn't know the thief was here.

If Jesus appears in China during the day, then in America it is night.

Believe me, I'm not crazy,I'm serious.

I need your help, the help is not money,Help me deliver a message.

Let me say something more in detail, I knew that I saw him, maybe others can't saw him, maybe others can saw him, but they were busy on the way to make money, and didn't look up to the sky.
After that, another day. I saw cars coming and going on the road. There was a bottomless pit in the middle of the road, The pit looks very dark as not accepting light, but I still saw cars could passing on the road, It's like there's no bottomless pit at all. I could saw people working on the side of the bottomless pit with modern tools which is the drills used by road builders.

I mean, God can raise up children for Abraham out of stone. What I saw is something like this. Almighty god.
"At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance"
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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"At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance"
I know what I see, in the sky, not in the wilderness or in the house
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I know what I see, in the sky, not in the wilderness or in the house
Good day, soberxp!

My was/is, that Jesus is warning the reader about those who would claim that the Messiah is out in the desert or in an inner room in a house, to not believe it. Then He tells them how they can know the true Messiah from the fakes and that because He will be arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

However, I'm sure that during that time, people, like they do even now, will still run out believing others to be the Messiah. And their biggest error will be their worship of the beast, his image and receive his mark.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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Good day, soberxp!

My was/is, that Jesus is warning the reader about those who would claim that the Messiah is out in the desert or in an inner room in a house, to not believe it. Then He tells them how they can know the true Messiah from the fakes and that because He will be arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

However, I'm sure that during that time, people, like they do even now, will still run out believing others to be the Messiah. And their biggest error will be their worship of the beast, his image and receive his mark.
God has shown me a lot of miracles, but he won't tell me anything directly, just let me understand by myself,
For example, when I saw Jesus, I didn't quite understand the meaning of the second coming , I just thought it was a personal revelation.He won't tell me directly that this is Jesus second coming.He don't tell me that you should forgive someone you hate,but let me to understand by myself,It's just that God knows when to inspire me, and I will understand.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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God has shown me a lot of miracles, but he won't tell me anything directly, just let me understand by myself,
For example, when I saw Jesus, I didn't quite understand the meaning of the second coming , I just thought it was a personal revelation.He won't tell me directly that this is Jesus second coming. He don't tell me that you should forgive someone you hate, but let me to understand by myself,It's just that God knows when to inspire me, and I will understand.
Well, you can always go to His word for the truth too, for that is what He gave it to us for. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring to our remembrance all that He told us and that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to us that are yet to come. He does this through His word and this is how I know the things that I know, because the Spirit revealed them to me through the study of His word.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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Well, you can always go to His word for the truth too, for that is what He gave it to us for. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring to our remembrance all that He told us and that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to us that are yet to come. He does this through His word and this is how I know the things that I know, because the Spirit revealed them to me through the study of His word.
You're right, but sometimes it's hard for us to find out own mistakes when we read the Bible,only by Holy Spirit reveal things to us.