The second coming of Jesus

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#81
Luke 12:54-57
Interpreting the Time He also said to the crowds, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, ‘A shower is coming.’ And so it happens. And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, ‘There will be scorching heat,’ and it happens. You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?Settle with Your Accuser “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? (ESV)
Exactly!!! Can you now see which generation would be the subject of Divine Wrath and judgment?
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
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#82
No. He gives many hints. Here are some of them.

Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Mat 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

Mat 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Mat 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Then we have all the verses telling first century people to watch, wait and be ready. There would be no need for them to be ready and to watch if His return would be thousands of years later. One of the key problems futurists have is they fail to understand the nature of His return and the purpose for it.
Well you can believe so. But who then was the son of perdition in 2. Thess. 2,3? And when then was the falling away? And in which Tempel the son of perdition ruled in vers 4?
Dont you then you belong to the people who destroys the faith of the bretheren in claiming the the Lord has been already came?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#83
Atheists are almost calling themselves gods,An atheist is one who holds himself high,
Jesus has come. Why can't you see my post?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#84
Exactly!!! Can you now see which generation would be the subject of Divine Wrath and judgment?
sorry,I'm not sure.

They don't know what they're doing。。。

They stood in the way of the Lord,don't want other pass.

he came fast than they thought

The coming of the second time will eventually become the past tense.

let them who don't believe and still waiting

let them who believe and joyful,cuz they are lucky.
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
1,359
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#85
Can you expound on this comment as well?
Thanks!
We will not all sleep,but not one of us

Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2-Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.[/QUOTE]

Thank you!
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
1,359
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#86
Can you expound on this comment?
Thanks!
Yes. I believe Paul assumed his audience understood that one must die before going to heaven when he wrote 1 Thes 4:17. Thus, I believe Paul was saying that for those who outlived the resurrection, or were not yet born, would be caught up (harpazo "raptured") with those who were resurrected, when they die, thus they meet the Lord in the air (heaven).

The resurrection is not about returning to one's flesh body and seeing that body transformed. Christ's body was the only one not to see corruption (Acts 2) the rest of our bodies are corrupt, they return to dust, and they can NEVER inherit incorruption. The resurrection is "from the dead." The dead were found in Hades. Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection meaning He was the first to leave Hades. He returned to His body, and appeared to many, to prove He rose again. The rest of us won't do that. When we die, we leave this physical realm and enter the spiritual realm immediately.

Thus on the last day of the Jewish age, the resurrection took place. There are no believers in Hades today. Christ defeated spiritual death which is separation from God, and restored all things. He took all the OT saints to heaven. There is no teaching of disembodied souls. Those in Hades could see, feel pain, talk, etc. You need a body for that. Both Peter and Paul taught that our flesh bodies are tents covering our spiritual body.

If you look at all other passages which deal with the resurrection, you will not see a rapture of living people. This idea is only found in one place (1 Thes 4:17). We have multiple passages that state we must die first, including the two I already provided. There is no teaching of a mass rapture event of living people. This teaching in the church is false. The rapture is an individual event, it happens to each of us when we die. There is no more going to Hades, we go straight to heaven, absent from the body, present with the Lord.

To prove the rapture is a singular event and not a one-time mass event we only need to look at 2 Cor 12:2. Here we have a man (Paul perhaps) who was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. Clearly this was a singular rapture. Jesus never even hinted at a rapture of living people. This notion never existed in the church until 1830. Jesus provides the timing of the resurrection in Luke 20. The resurrection was for those of the last age.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Early church father, Ignatius (40 - 108 AD), was a friend of Polycarp and the Apostle John. In his letter to the Magnesians, he states this:

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, do appreciate!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
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#87
Well you can believe so. But who then was the son of perdition in 2. Thess. 2,3? And when then was the falling away? And in which Tempel the son of perdition ruled in vers 4?
Dont you then you belong to the people who destroys the faith of the bretheren in claiming the the Lord has been already came?
Dont you then you belong to the people who destroys the faith of the bretheren in claiming the the Lord has been already came?
You mean the resurrection? No, because that passage was written before the resurrection took place. The resurrection happened on the last day of the Mosaic Age.

nd when then was the falling away?
The falling away already started during Christ's day and kept getting worse and worse. The unbelieving Jews not only killed their Messiah, they started offering sacrifices to Nero and Apollo and other false gods. This generation was considered by many of that day to be the most wicked and sinful ever known. As Christ said, they were like the days of Noah.

But who then was the son of perdition in 2. Thess. 2,3?
Many believe the Lawless One was Titus as he made it impossible to follow the Law when he destroyed the temple. He was worshiped in the temple and his soldiers made sacrifices to him. He acted as God as he decided who lived and who died.
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
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#88
How can the 'sun and moon being darkened, and the stars falling from heaven' be explained? Just asking.....
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
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#89
You mean the resurrection? No, because that passage was written before the resurrection took place. The resurrection happened on the last day of the Mosaic Age.



The falling away already started during Christ's day and kept getting worse and worse. The unbelieving Jews not only killed their Messiah, they started offering sacrifices to Nero and Apollo and other false gods. This generation was considered by many of that day to be the most wicked and sinful ever known. As Christ said, they were like the days of Noah.



Many believe the Lawless One was Titus as he made it impossible to follow the Law when he destroyed the temple. He was worshiped in the temple and his soldiers made sacrifices to him. He acted as God as he decided who lived and who died.
Well, interesting theory. We will see. I dont believe that your View is right.
The time will reveal it.
You mean the resurrection? No, because that passage was written before the resurrection took place. The resurrection happened on the last day of the Mosaic Age.



The falling away already started during Christ's day and kept getting worse and worse. The unbelieving Jews not only killed their Messiah, they started offering sacrifices to Nero and Apollo and other false gods. This generation was considered by many of that day to be the most wicked and sinful ever known. As Christ said, they were like the days of Noah.



Many believe the Lawless One was Titus as he made it impossible to follow the Law when he destroyed the temple. He was worshiped in the temple and his soldiers made sacrifices to him. He acted as God as he decided who lived and who died.
What is for You The Christs Day.
The resurrection of Christ was in which year? I ask for to not missunderstood you.
Paul cant wrote this Letter before Christs ressuraction.

Titus became Cäsar 9 years, after the Tempel in Jerusalem was destroyed. How he could have sat in the temple then?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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#90
How can the 'sun and moon being darkened, and the stars falling from heaven' be explained? Just asking.....
Simple. This was the way they talked. Their world, as they knew it, was coming to an end. This same description is given repeatedly in the OT every time God passed divine judgment on a nation when He used a foreign power to wipe out the subject of His wrath. This description is an ancient colloquialism much like today when one might tell an opponent prior to a competition, "I am going to destroy you," or "eat your lunch." The use of slang and colorful phrases is not unique to today, such literary uses are common in ancient speech, including in the Bible.

In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from heaven. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age in 70 AD. Since God was present during these 4 OT examples, we should expect His Son to be present in 70 AD exacting the revenge He promised on those who did not accept Him and instead, killed Him (Acts 3:14-24).

So while this is figurative language it also appeared to happen literally to those observing. Any time the presence of God came in the OT, He came riding His glory cloud. This extremely dark cloud was needed to shield His extreme brightness, so bright that it would kill anyone who was there. Thus to those in the vicinity, the lights of the sky would literally be blocked and thus would appear to be darkened by His glory cloud. Josephus records an extremely dark storm during the Jewish war eerily similar to the darkness God brought upon Egypt.

The "stars" however, I do not believe are literal suns from all over the galaxy or universe falling to earth. This would be impossible. Our sun is 109 times wider than the earth and it would take over 1 million earths to fill up the sun. Just one sun would wipe the earth out long before it ever got close enough to fall to it. Thus here, I believe stars are representing messengers or angels as they frequently do (Dan 8:10, 12:3, Jude 1:13). The presence of God, or Christ is frequently associated with accompanying angels. In Jude 1:14 we are told Christ would come with ten thousands of His saints. Thus angels accompanying Christ's presence "falling to earth" is to be expected.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#91
Wolfwint,

Well, interesting theory. We will see. I dont believe that your View is right.
The time will reveal it.
Thanks for listening. My view has been correct for 1,950 years and counting. The disciples stated repeatedly that they were living in the last days. Either they were referring to the last days of their nation and life as they knew it or they were discussing the end of our planet thousands of years into their future which would mean we have been in the last days for nearly 2,000 years. If the latter was true, the last days are lasting longer than the entire age from Abraham to Christ itself. It would be like saying there is 1 second left in a game when it's only half-time.

However, if they were discussing the end of Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, the Law and their age which would take place within their generation, suddenly it makes sense for them, and Jesus, to warn everyone to watch, be sober, be ready because they don't know what day it would happen. But if they were discussing an event that would not take place for another 2,000+ years, why the urgency to watch?

Similarly, in 2 Thes 1, Paul comforts the persecuted Church of Thessalonika. They were being tormented by the Jews (see Acts 17). Paul promises them rest from their persecution and he also promises revenge to those who were persecuting them when Jesus was revealed in flaming fire vengeance (the exact way Jerusalem was destroyed BTW). Devout Jews from all over the known world (Roman Empire) would return to Jerusalem for the sacred feasts like Pentecost, Passover, and Tabernacles. When they did, they were trapped inside as the Romans let them in, but wouldn't let them leave. Thus, the Thessalonians indeed got rest from their persecution as those doing the persecuting were killed during the Jewish war. Either Paul was referring to this, which matches nicely, or instead he was discussing Christians more broadly thousands of years later which would mean those persecuted Thessalonians never got their rest and comfort and revenge was never paid to those responsible. This would hollow out the comfort Paul gave them making his words to them, meaningless. So which is it?

Lastly, I believe all of these things related to the Fall of Israel, the greatest or second greatest country on earth at the time, next to Rome. The Jews actually gave Rome a run for their money for awhile and could've won if they remained united. Everything they knew was about to be over. It would be like the USA or China being completely and utterly wiped off the map with no stone left upon another in our near future. This was a big deal to them, and the planet. So either they didn't know what was coming, or it was all they were talking about as it would be for us if we knew our country would soon be obliterated. Either they were more concerned about our future thousands of years later and silent about their future or the other way around. So, which was it?

I'll handle the rest of your questions next.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#92
What is for You The Christs Day.
Day of Divine judgment. There were multiple Days of the Lord in the OT (see my post #90). Thus the Day of Christ was His revenge and divine judgment on Apostate Israel in 70 AD. He kept His promise.

The resurrection of Christ was in which year? I ask for to not missunderstood you.
It was likely either 30 or 33 AD depending on which calendar we are using. After the Cross, Christ descended to Hades, as all who died at the time did. Those in Hades were not just physically dead but spiritually dead as well. To be spiritually dead = absent from the Lord God. Christ ministered to the dead in Hades. Death and Hades are often used as synonyms or at least found together (Rev 20:13, 14, 1 Cor 15:55). Thus when Christ was resurrected from the dead, He literally rose from those who were dead in Hades. Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection meaning He was the first to leave Hades. In this way, Christ defeated Death. He returned to His body as proof of this resurrection and appeared to many. This was entirely necessary. His body bore the wounds of the Cross yet He was a spiritual being at the same time. A spiritual being in our physical realm is quite different than a spiritual being in the spiritual realm but this is too long a topic to cover here.

Paul cant wrote this Letter before Christs ressuraction.
And he didn't. Paul wrote his two letters to the Thessalonians around 51-52 AD.

Titus became Cäsar 9 years, after the Tempel in Jerusalem was destroyed. How he could have sat in the temple then?
When Vespasian was declared Caesar in December of 69 AD his two sons (Titus and Domitian) were named Caesar at the same time. Many people don't know this. They took the same name, Titus Flavius Vespasianus. This was done because Rome had just endured a brutal year long civil war which started largely because Nero did not name a successor. Thus we had three emperors who died trying to gain control of the empire in what would become know as the Year of the Four Emperors, Vespasian being the fourth. To avoid this from happening again, Vespasian's successors were named.

I don't typically like the name "AntiChrist" being used but in the case of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, it fits. They were an unholy Trinity, mirror opposites of Father, Son and HS. Vespasian was truly "OF SATAN" as much as Judas was. Thus Titus being referred to as "the Son of Perdition" makes perfect sense. Vespasian declared war on God's people, not just the Jews but also the Christians as he considered them all sons of David. He ordered all descendants of David to be sought out and killed. It's unclear how successful he was in this effort.

Back to Titus and his moment at the temple as it was burning. Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshiped at the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple displaying himself as a god.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.” A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshiped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

In the first century, the Caesars were worshipped in Rome’s eastern provinces in the imperial cult as a god. Recall that Titus was given the title “Caesar” in A.D. 69 at Vespasian’s coronation. And when the Romans broke into the Temple, Suetonius says that Titus’ army wanted to make him emperor.4 Since the time of Augustus, the Roman emperor was Pontifex Maximus or high priest of Roman religious life. Furthermore, Titus’ army was drawn from the eastern provinces where emperor worship was a day-to-day occurrence and officially sanctioned in the Imperial Cult in Rome at the time. Thus Caesar Titus was his army’s general, perceived emperor and Pontifex Maximus. And as Pontifex Maximus or high priest in the presence of his army drawn from the east where emperor worship was officially sanctioned, Titus was expected to both direct and receive divine worship while the Romans worshiped the images of himself and Vespasian on the ensigns in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70.

Titus Flavius Vespasianus is called the man of lawlessness because he permanently put an end to the practice of the Law by destroying the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70 thereby making it impossible to fully follow the customs of the Law of Moses.

How could Titus be the Lawless One if he did not die at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70? Of all the other possible first-century candidates for the Lawless One–Nero, Simon, John, Eleazar ben Jair, and Eleazar ben Simon–none of these people are known to have died at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 never says the Lawless One would die at the coming of Christ in A.D. 70. This verse literally reads, “And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will TAKE AWAY with the Breath of His Mouth and DO AWAY WITH by the Splendor of His Coming.” Titus was done away with and taken away in A.D. 70 since he left Jerusalem and returned to Rome immediately after the city fell in A.D. 70.

It's uncanny how everything fits.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,523
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#93
How can the 'sun and moon being darkened, and the stars falling from heaven' be explained? Just asking.....

The moon appears red during a total lunar eclipse. The moon also blocking the light of the sun from the other planets as stars falling or failing to light.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
113
#94
You mean the resurrection? No, because that passage was written before the resurrection took place. The resurrection happened on the last day of the Mosaic Age.



The falling away already started during Christ's day and kept getting worse and worse. The unbelieving Jews not only killed their Messiah, they started offering sacrifices to Nero and Apollo and other false gods. This generation was considered by many of that day to be the most wicked and sinful ever known. As Christ said, they were like the days of Noah.



Many believe the Lawless One was Titus as he made it impossible to follow the Law when he destroyed the temple. He was worshiped in the temple and his soldiers made sacrifices to him. He acted as God as he decided who lived and who died.

It's interesting that you disagree with Josephus on this,that is comparing your position with Wars 2, chapter 10, 4th paragraph. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
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#95
Day of Divine judgment. There were multiple Days of the Lord in the OT (see my post #90). Thus the Day of Christ was His revenge and divine judgment on Apostate Israel in 70 AD. He kept His promise.



It was likely either 30 or 33 AD depending on which calendar we are using. After the Cross, Christ descended to Hades, as all who died at the time did. Those in Hades were not just physically dead but spiritually dead as well. To be spiritually dead = absent from the Lord God. Christ ministered to the dead in Hades. Death and Hades are often used as synonyms or at least found together (Rev 20:13, 14, 1 Cor 15:55). Thus when Christ was resurrected from the dead, He literally rose from those who were dead in Hades. Christ was the firstfruits of the resurrection meaning He was the first to leave Hades. In this way, Christ defeated Death. He returned to His body as proof of this resurrection and appeared to many. This was entirely necessary. His body bore the wounds of the Cross yet He was a spiritual being at the same time. A spiritual being in our physical realm is quite different than a spiritual being in the spiritual realm but this is too long a topic to cover here.



And he didn't. Paul wrote his two letters to the Thessalonians around 51-52 AD.



When Vespasian was declared Caesar in December of 69 AD his two sons (Titus and Domitian) were named Caesar at the same time. Many people don't know this. They took the same name, Titus Flavius Vespasianus. This was done because Rome had just endured a brutal year long civil war which started largely because Nero did not name a successor. Thus we had three emperors who died trying to gain control of the empire in what would become know as the Year of the Four Emperors, Vespasian being the fourth. To avoid this from happening again, Vespasian's successors were named.

I don't typically like the name "AntiChrist" being used but in the case of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, it fits. They were an unholy Trinity, mirror opposites of Father, Son and HS. Vespasian was truly "OF SATAN" as much as Judas was. Thus Titus being referred to as "the Son of Perdition" makes perfect sense. Vespasian declared war on God's people, not just the Jews but also the Christians as he considered them all sons of David. He ordered all descendants of David to be sought out and killed. It's unclear how successful he was in this effort.

Back to Titus and his moment at the temple as it was burning. Josephus says that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with his generals in A.D. 70. Shortly thereafter, Titus was worshiped at the Temple in A.D. 70 as was customary of someone declared imperator in fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4: “He sets Himself up in God’s Temple displaying himself as a god.” Josephus writes, “And now the Romans . . . brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator.” A metallic image of Vespasian and Titus was also worshiped at that time. The image of Vespasian and Titus was found on the ensign called the numina legionum which was a large coin-shaped bust or image of the emperor and his favorites (i.e. Titus) held aloft on a pole.

In the first century, the Caesars were worshipped in Rome’s eastern provinces in the imperial cult as a god. Recall that Titus was given the title “Caesar” in A.D. 69 at Vespasian’s coronation. And when the Romans broke into the Temple, Suetonius says that Titus’ army wanted to make him emperor.4 Since the time of Augustus, the Roman emperor was Pontifex Maximus or high priest of Roman religious life. Furthermore, Titus’ army was drawn from the eastern provinces where emperor worship was a day-to-day occurrence and officially sanctioned in the Imperial Cult in Rome at the time. Thus Caesar Titus was his army’s general, perceived emperor and Pontifex Maximus. And as Pontifex Maximus or high priest in the presence of his army drawn from the east where emperor worship was officially sanctioned, Titus was expected to both direct and receive divine worship while the Romans worshiped the images of himself and Vespasian on the ensigns in the Temple on the 9th of Av of A.D. 70.

Titus Flavius Vespasianus is called the man of lawlessness because he permanently put an end to the practice of the Law by destroying the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70 thereby making it impossible to fully follow the customs of the Law of Moses.

How could Titus be the Lawless One if he did not die at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70? Of all the other possible first-century candidates for the Lawless One–Nero, Simon, John, Eleazar ben Jair, and Eleazar ben Simon–none of these people are known to have died at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 never says the Lawless One would die at the coming of Christ in A.D. 70. This verse literally reads, “And then the Lawless One will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will TAKE AWAY with the Breath of His Mouth and DO AWAY WITH by the Splendor of His Coming.” Titus was done away with and taken away in A.D. 70 since he left Jerusalem and returned to Rome immediately after the city fell in A.D. 70.

It's uncanny how everything fits.
Well, 2.Thess 2 ends not with vers 4. If you read further then it is clear that Titus could not be the man who is described in vers 4.
Where are the power and Sign which Titus did in vers 9?
Why nowhere you find in the history that Jesus came back in the year 70. Not in the jewish, nor in the Christian literature?
Christianity was in the beginning, so which falling away from Christians should be meant?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#96
It's interesting that you disagree with Josephus on this,that is comparing your position with Wars 2, chapter 10, 4th paragraph. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html
How so? Your citation here:

4. And when they insisted on their law, and the custom of their country, and how it was not only not permitted them to make either an image of God, or indeed of a man, and to put it in any despicable part of their country, much less in the temple itself, Petronius replied, “And am not I also, said he, bound to keep the law of my own lord? For if I transgress it, and spare you, it is but just that I perish; while he that sent me, and not I, will commence a war against you; for I am under command as well as you.” Hereupon the whole multitude cried out, That “they were ready to suffer for their law.” Petronius then quieted them, and said to them, “Will you then make war against Cæsar?” The Jews said, “We offer sacrifice twice every day for Cæsar, and for the Roman people; but that if he would place the images among them, he must first sacrifice the whole Jewish nation; and that they were ready to expose themselves, together with their children and wives, to be slain.” At this Petronius was astonished, and pitied them on account of the inexpressible sense of religion the men were under, and that courage of theirs which made them ready to die for it; so they were dismissed without success.


took place under Caius in 66 AD. Notice they were already sacrificing to human god Caesar twice a day. When Titus broke through in 70 AD, his Roman soldiers worshiped him as god. See War 6-6-1.

1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

We have worship to images of Caesar found on the ensigns and we have a general and a prince being declared a god. Close enough for me.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
149
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#97
Well, 2.Thess 2 ends not with vers 4. If you read further then it is clear that Titus could not be the man who is described in vers 4.
Where are the power and Sign which Titus did in vers 9?
Don't worry, I got this.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

According to v. 9 the coming of the Lawless One was to be marked by many counterfeit miracles and wonders. The word translated “coming” in this verse is again parousia, a word denoting the glorious entry of a regal figure into a city typically followed by an extended stay. Interestingly, immediately before Titus’ arrival or Parousia in Jerusalem to besiege the city in A.D. 70 as well as Vespasian’s parousia when he made his first triumphal entry into Rome to claim his title as emperor in A.D. 70, a multitude of signs, wonders and miracles were recorded by Roman historians. According to Cassius Dio, it rained blood in Italy such that rivers of blood flowed throughout the land. Suetonius writes, “[A] thunderbolt presently struck the Temple of the Caesars, decapitating all the statues at a stroke and dashed Augustus’s scepter from his hands.” According to Tacitus, “[A]n apparition of superhuman size had suddenly emerged from the Chapel of Juno. . . . [ and, A]n ox had spoken in Etruria.” Miracles similar to the ones mentioned above are also predicted in Rev 16:14.

Notice that v. 9 never says that the Lawless One would perform these miracles himself. Interestingly, one such miracle upon the arrival of Titus to besiege Jerusalem was performed by Titus’ father, Vespasian. Upon claiming the throne, Vespasian spent some time in Alexandria before making his triumphal entry or parousia into Rome. During this time, the time of the “coming of the lawless one,” Tacitus says “many miracles occurred” in explicit fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:9: “In the course of the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria, waiting for the regular season of summer winds when the sea could be relied upon,[so he could sail to Rome to assume his seat as emperor] many miracles occurred.

According to the Roman historians Tacitus and Cassius Dio, during Vespasian’s stay in Alexandria, a blind man and a man with a withered hand fell at the emperor’s feet begging to be healed. Initially reluctant, Vespasian gave in to the fervent pleas of the surrounding crowd. Then according to these historians, Vespasian spit on eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men. Recording this miracle, Tacitus writes:

With a smiling expression and surrounded by an expectant crowd of bystanders, he [Vespasian] did what was asked. Instantly the cripple recovered the use of his hand and the light of day dawned again upon his blind companion. Both incidents are still vouched for by eye-witnesses, though there is now nothing to be gained by lying.​
This miracle is also recorded by the first century historian Suetonius in Lives of the Twelve Caesars though Suetonius says that Vespasian healed a lame man rather than a man with a withered hand. Interestingly, it was the act of healing the blind and lame that Jesus declared were signs that he was the Messiah in Matthew 11:2-5: “When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?” Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk . . .” Not surprisingly, Vespasian having also healed the blind and lame in a like manner to Jesus also believed himself to be and was believed by others to be the Messiah. The religious Jewish order thought Vespasian was their messiah and would save them from the zealots. Thus they were deceived.

2 Thes 2 is not the only passage where Titus is found. We find the Son of Perdition (Vespasian) here in Rev 17:11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. Thus Titus was the 8th!!!



Coin of Caesar Titus. Legend identifies Titus as high priest (pontiff): “Lettering: IMP T CAES DIVI VESP F AVG P M TR P P P COS VIII
Translation: Imperator Titus Caesar Divi Vespasianus Fili Augustus Pontifex Maximus Tribunicia Potestate Consul Octavum (Emperor Titus Caesar, Son of Divine Vespasian, August, Greatest Pontiff invested with Tribunician Power, Consul for the Eighth Time)

Now look at Dan 9:

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined... And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

Titus was the next prince to come and desolate Jerusalem and destroy the sanctuary with a flood of foreign soldiers. The city was consumed by fire and left desolate in the war. All of this is WAYYYY to close a fit to ignore. For Titus NOT to have been the one, a temple must be built, a gap of 2,000 years needs to be added to the specified time frame and a new beast empire must be formed which would support a false religion/harlot of Israel. Good luck with that.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#98
Why nowhere you find in the history that Jesus came back in the year 70. Not in the jewish, nor in the Christian literature?
Not in Jewish literature but that shouldn't be surprising as they were all getting wiped out and slaughtered at the time. I take that back, Josephus records it but without realizing it. More on that in a moment. Christ's return may have been found in Roman literature. According to Tacitus, “[A]n apparition of superhuman size had suddenly emerged from the Chapel of Juno." Was this Christ?

Christ return is definitely recorded in early Christian literature. Ignatius of Antioch (40 to 108 AD), a disciple of John and friend of Polycarp was fully grown in 70 AD. Thus he was alive at the time and of sufficient age. In his letter to the Magnesians he says this:

CHAPTER 9 (translated by JB Lightfoot)

9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient
practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer
observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after
the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through
Him and through His death which some men deny -- a
mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this
cause we endure patiently, that we may be found
disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher --
9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live
apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being
His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher
through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

Remember, it was the PRESENCE or PAROUSIA of Christ that was to return, not the physical man as many wrongly think. Rev 18:1 says, "After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory." EARTH = ISRAEL throughout Revelation. Christ was given authority over everything. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

Remember, parousia, denotes the glorious entry of a regal figure into a city typically followed by an extended stay. Thus I believe the presence of Christ first arrived just before the start of the Jewish War and remained until the city was destroyed. So, we are looking for a recorded event where Israel was illuminated with the glory of Christ in the 66-70 time frame. I think I found it in the writings of Josephus:

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

Here we see a bright light at night time that made it appear to be bright day time and it lit up the temple. This was just before the war. But there is more. Josephus goes on to say this:

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

Since when do baby virgin calves give birth to lambs???? The symbolism shouldn't be lost on anyone. The signs of divine presence is everywhere. Josephus continues.

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

This was another sign from God or Christ. These things don't happen on their own. The wicked didn't know, but the wise did. Sound familiar? But Josephus isn't done. This next passage seals the deal.

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Chariots in the sky? Earth quaking and a great noise? This is always found when the presence of God, or Christ is around. Remember it wasn't just Jerusalem that was destroyed. First all the surrounding cities were destroyed.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#99
Christianity was in the beginning, so which falling away from Christians should be meant?
It wasn't to be the falling away of the Church or Christians. It was the falling away of the Jews. The temple is in focus, not the Church. Who do we find at the temple??? The Jewish religious leaders perhaps??? Where do you get the idea that it was the Church? The text doesn't say that. Judgment against the church isn't found anywhere. Judgment against Apostate Israel is found EVERYWHERE!!!!
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
5,658
877
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How so? Your citation here:

4. And when they insisted on their law, and the custom of their country, and how it was not only not permitted them to make either an image of God, or indeed of a man, and to put it in any despicable part of their country, much less in the temple itself, Petronius replied, “And am not I also, said he, bound to keep the law of my own lord? For if I transgress it, and spare you, it is but just that I perish; while he that sent me, and not I, will commence a war against you; for I am under command as well as you.” Hereupon the whole multitude cried out, That “they were ready to suffer for their law.” Petronius then quieted them, and said to them, “Will you then make war against Cæsar?” The Jews said, “We offer sacrifice twice every day for Cæsar, and for the Roman people; but that if he would place the images among them, he must first sacrifice the whole Jewish nation; and that they were ready to expose themselves, together with their children and wives, to be slain.” At this Petronius was astonished, and pitied them on account of the inexpressible sense of religion the men were under, and that courage of theirs which made them ready to die for it; so they were dismissed without success.

took place under Caius in 66 AD. Notice they were already sacrificing to human god Caesar twice a day. When Titus broke through in 70 AD, his Roman soldiers worshiped him as god. See War 6-6-1.

1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

We have worship to images of Caesar found on the ensigns and we have a general and a prince being declared a god. Close enough for me.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

lol, It says "...we offer sacrifices twice every day for Caesar,and for the Roman people...ect." not to Caesar. So their saying that they were making sacrifice to God(the Almighty) for Caesar(his behalf) and the Roman people the same as they were being offered for all Israel. Your misunderstanding "for" and think it means to.