The time of Jacobs trouble

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 27, 2016

Isaiah 51:17-23[SUP]17 [/SUP]Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

In Luke 21:22-23, 'vengeance' and 'wrath' are referring to actions taken against the Jews ~70 A.D. by their enemies.

Both words are used with regard to God in other places in the Bible; however, in the context of Luke 21 they are not.

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 27, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Ezekiel 39:21-29 “And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;[SUP]26 [/SUP]After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.”

PilgrimPassingThru · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

Jesus was to fulfill that proclamation in Isaiah, and Isaiah references the vengeance as being of God, Jesus declares the days of it, as he does the acceptable year.

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Which Jesus quotes here in Luke 4:19

Then he closed the book (of Isaiah) in Luke 4:20 because that day this was fulfilled

As we know that last verse is split...

The second half of Isaiah 61:2 is to proclaim.... the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Which part of vengeance is proclaimed here

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

As the Spirit of the LORD was upon Jesus (as shown in Isaiah 61:1) so that he might proclaim these same.

Even the parable of a King who sent His Son and those of the vinyard murdered him is wroth and then sends his armies to burn the city of those particular murderers.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

Isaiah 13:

[SUP]13[/SUP] Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. [SUP]14[/SUP] And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. [SUP]15[/SUP] Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. [SUP]16[/SUP] Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. [SUP]17[/SUP] Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. [SUP]18[/SUP] Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. [SUP]19[/SUP] And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. [SUP]20[/SUP] It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. [SUP]21[/SUP] But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. [SUP]22[/SUP] And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

Zechariah 14:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2[/SUP] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [SUP]3[/SUP] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [SUP]4[/SUP] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [SUP]5[/SUP] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Although what is described in the red-highlighted parts above seems to be characteristic of things that happened ~70 A.D., the rest of both passages definitely seems to be 'future'.

-- i.e. - the point I am making here is that this indicates a 'future' attack on Israel / Jerusalem...

DP · Feb 27, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

Many of us here recognize you tend towards Preterist or Historicist thinking. The Dan.9:27 verse about the final "one week" has never... been fulfilled yet, not even to this day.

Antiochus Epiphenes almost... fulfilled it in 165 B.C., which the Dan.11 events are a further detail of the Dan.9:27 events. But Antiochus was already dead when about 200 years later our Lord Jesus warned us about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" from Dan.9 and 11 in Jerusalem.

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 27, 2016

Isaiah 13 is about the burden of Babylon, and the destruction by the army of the Medes, but there are types and shadows of the coming destruction of the world (Mystery Babylon). But that has nothing to with 70 ad. However some of Zech. 14 prophecies may have a bearing on the 70 ad destruction, and also still some future prophecies of the 2nd coming of Messiah.

No doubt the nations of the world will once again be gathered against God's Jerusalem, the "holy city" which are also "his people" Zion. But I do not believe they will be successful because the Lord said his favor would return to them, and he would fight for them as He did in the time of David. Here are some verses that show the battle and destruction to come, but it is to come against the nations, and also notice the timing, which again shows the 6th seal signs...

Isaiah 34:1-10 “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.[SUP]10 [/SUP]It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”

Joel 33 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more."

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 27, 2016

DP said:

Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah the Prince and the New Covenant, which you and others deny has taken place already, hence is why I call that doctrine heresy. Deny the 70th week as being fulfilled, you also deny Messiah crucified in the middle of that 70th week as being fulfilled, and thereby also denying the bringing in of the New Testament. But we have had this discussion before.

DP · Feb 27, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

No, those days of vengeance in Luke 21:22 is tied with the "day of the Lord" timing on the last day of this world. It did not happen right after the 70 A.D. event of Jerusalem's destruction. Luke 21 is Jesus' Olivet Discourse like Matt.24 and Mark 13, signs about the very end of this world. False prophets are the ones trying to make His Olivet Discourse be only about 70 A.D.

The phrase "days of vengeance" at the end of Isaiah 61:2 is for Christ's second coming. The previous part of Isaiah 61:1-2 which Jesus read in Luke 4 was for His first coming. So that Isaiah example is like the Zech.9:9-10 verses, where His first and second comings are both declared within the space of two verses. Got to rightly divide God's Word like Apostle Paul said (2 Tim.2:15).

The Luke 21:24 description happens to include the event of Rev.11:1-2 about the Gentiles treading Jerusalem for 42 months during the tribulation time at the ending of this world, so you can't just move that back only to 70 A.D. and leave it there.

That is completely... BOGUS!

The "great tribulation" Jesus proclaimed in Matt.24 (which is the same events of Luke 21 He was speaking of), is about the end just PRIOR to His second coming! Your naked Preterist doctrines of men is showing!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

DP · Feb 27, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

That doctrine is blasphemy against Christ Jesus, no Christian should have it. That because the Dan.9:27 verse is about the events in Dan.11 about the ending of the daily oblation and instead placing the "abomination that maketh desolate", an idol, by the "vile person". It is to call our Lord Jesus that "vile person" of Dan.11.

Further, our Lord Jesus warned us about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" in Jerusalem for the end, per His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

That doctrine you have, you got from the "synagogue of Satan" who hate Jesus of Nazareth; that's where those ideas that Jesus fulfilled that final "one week" events of Dan.9:27 originates.

popeye · Feb 27, 2016

InSpiritInTruth said:

The jews are lead away and protected during the GT. Here > rev 12;13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The 144 k are called first fruits. (jews that are messianic Jews,12k out of 12 tribes)

They are also referred to here> rev 12;17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

They are separated ,sealed,then raptured or murdered and raptured,during the GT. Here > Rev 14;1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The remainder of the Jews are raptured here> 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

DP said:

"I know you do not realize this --- but, you are wrong..."

You are misinterpreting what Daniel 9:27 is actually saying. And, Luke 21:20-24 is talking about ~70 A.D. and its aftermath.

The Olivet Discourse is not about ~70 A.D. only -- but, does include it.

The Olivet Discource is about the past ~2000 years.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

DP said:

I don't think anyone is saying that the Antiochus 'event' is the "abomination of desolation"...

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

DP said:

Not true.

Daniel 9:27 is not about any events in Daniel 11. ( it is not specifically identifying with the "abomination of desolation" )

DP · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

I disagree... strongly.

The idea your preaching is from men's doctrines of Preterism (preter = what is past). Men's doctrines are tethers designed to allow you only so much line. It creates a bubble for you, and wants you to stay in that bubble with trying to make all Scripture fit into it.

DP · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

But it's a blueprint pattern Gary, that it served... for what the "abomination of desolation" is that our Lord Jesus warned us about in His Olivet Discourse for the end. Antiochus IV almost fulfilled the role of the "vile person" to a tee.

And when the Romans under Titus destroyed Jerusalem, they tried to seize possession of the temple, but it caught fire (Josephus suggested it was set on fire from the inside to prevent the Romans ever gaining control of it). So the "abomination of desolation" event did not happen in 70 A.D., which ought to reveal quite a bit about the real timing of our Lord's Olivet Discourse being for the end of this world, since for 1,946 years there has been no standing Israelite temple since 70 A.D.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2016

DP said:

"Don't worry --- you'll understand eventually..."

I am more of a 'historicist', not a 'preterist'. I believe that some of End Times Scenario prophecy has been fulfilled -- but, not all of it.

DP · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

This in my opinion, is one of the best and most accurate English translations of that Dan.9:27 verse:

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
RSV

The "vile person" of Dan.11 comes to power peaceably, makes a "league" with a "small people" (small group), then ends the daily sacrifice and oblation, and places the "abomination that maketh desolate" (I refer to the KJV in my quotes).

Dan 11:22-24
23 And from the time that an alliance is made with him he shall act deceitfully; and he shall become strong with a small people.
RSV

Dan 11:31-32
31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.
RSV

DP · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

Their pretty close ideas in my book, one has a tether just a little shorter than the other.

InSpiritInTruth · Feb 27, 2016

GaryA said:

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

The time of Jacobs trouble

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