The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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Jul 23, 2018
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Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation:p) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.
You are proving your calling is an evangelist.
You place others as defective because they are wasting their time here.
There are several offices and callings.
Ministry is diverse.
Helps ministry is as rewarding as what you do.
Healing ministry even more rewarding.

Your judgement against end times study is misapplied big time.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I get real skeptical when I hear "If you take a close look at the original Greek it means...", and I don't mean any offence and do agree the more we know the better we can speak it, but are we looking at the "original Greek", to find the truth, or do we have to go "somewhere else" because it clearly doesn't say what you want it to? A real question and not a jab.
Actually it is opposite.
I would say "how do you know they are telling you right?"
The textus receptus and strongs concordence are your friend
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation:p) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.
Why do you restrict what believers can do? Why can't we do everything?

Regarding Revelation and end-time events and that being "all that I talk about" which is not true, Revelation states the following:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near."

So, I will continue to proclaim the truth of the prophecy of this book, as well as preach the gospel and look for every opportunity to put into practice example of the good Samaritan. Why should we be restricted to one thing or another when we should do everything.

As for me, I will continue to contend for the truth and do everything else as well.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Again the exact same thing, no dressed up fancy commentary from people coming at it wanting to see it in the text, can convince me what it says isn't at all what it means. The whole concept that we are not smart enough to read Gods word and understand it, that I need "--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary" beside my bible to explain to me why the clear text doesn't mean what it says. Is this raising not red flags for you?You have to ADD to whats written to come to the conclusions you guys are putting forth. All I can do is share my view, and I appreciate you guys doing the same thing. This is what we are called to do, and I know I always go a bit overboard with saying this but I want to be very clear that I regard this as a debate between brothers, and I do disagree clearly, but I just don't want to come across too arrogant or "nose in the air", as if I'm better or smarter or any nonsense like that. I am just sharing what the Lord has opened my eyes to in love because we are called to do that, and I fully recognize you are doing the same thing, and praise God we can come together to discuss these things.
I was taught the PTR in all the churches I ever went to. I'm down in the Florida Panhandle, PTR is what is taught everywhere, strait up. Everybody is waiting to get called up, and just watching the world go to hell in a hand basket, powerless. To be honest I think it tents to product the kind of "hide and watch" approach, wasn't very effective nor did it have much power in my experience. But when God opened my eye's to the fact that He really does have ALL victory right now, and is seated on His throne right now, I'm not proclaiming some Kings word that "reigns right now, well not really now, but one day". To me this makes less sense than the fact that Jesus is reigning right now until all enemies are made a footstool for His feet. His power is great brother, and that is what I proclaim, the power and victory of Jesus, the hope of the world. The righteous shall inherit the earth, not the wicked first. Right?
Let's take this popular PTR scripture for example:
Matt 24: 36-44
36“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.42Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
See here you'd say (an assumption here, but most holding to the PTR say) that the ones taken were the ones Jesus calls up, but that's wrong, by the very example it's giving in 36-38 by Noah, in the flood who was taken off the earth and who stayed? It was the wicked taken and the righteous who was "left behind", and there is nothing in the verse to suggest otherwise, besides preconceived beliefs. Again I am doing exactly what I said I wouldn't, but guess it's impossible to discuss truth without going to them. Anyway I hope you have a great day brother.
Thanks for your post. I have to head out in a rush, right now, so cannot make a post ATM... but if you could read the post (at link, below) I made earlier today, it addresses this very thing:

https://christianchat.com/threads/luke-17-where-are-they-taken.186935/post-4011297



[I do realize that many "pre-tribbers" (and I am one! :) ) completely mis-apply the text you are pointing out, as you are pointing out :D --plz see my other post at link! My "response" is found there... though written in a different convo, earlier today, lol... Some of my other recent posts also address the Lk17 passage related to the Matt24 "taken and left" passage. See those too. lol]



Have a great one, all! :D


[3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ ]
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation:p) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.
By the way, the world is going to go to hell because that is what is written is going take place. It's not going to get better, but worse.

When the One who is now restraining is taken out of the way and the church is removed, then the full force of sin will be released and the man of sin revealed. It is the long prophesied day of the Lord and it is coming. Along with the preaching of the gospel and loving all people, we need to inform people of God's coming wrath and the severity of it and how to escape it.

As far escaping by being caught up, rescued would be a better word. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.

This teaching that Jesus has already returned in 70 AD is a great distortion of God's word. We are not here to Christianize the world in preparation for the Lord's return, but are to preach the gospel and warn people about the wrath that is coming. All one has to do is turn on the tv to see that the world is not being Christianized, but that it is getting worse, and as I said, this is according to scripture. The teaching that Jesus has already come is a false teaching, period.

In addition, anyone who is also teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, like Hymenaeus and Philitus, have wandered away from truth, that teaching which Paul said would spread like gangrene and that was/is godless chatter. Not saying that this is what you believe, but most people who claim that Jesus returned in 70 AD also claim that the resurrection has already taken place.

Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory to end the age, was not symbolically fulfilled by Titus and his legions destroying the temple and Jerusalem. For this will be a literal event which will take place just as it is stated, i.e. "Look, He's coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him."
 

GaryA

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I completely misread what you were saying. I was still caught up in the comment before so I misunderstood EVERYTHING you were saying. What I meant was I agree, but I do still get skeptical when I hear that. As in look deeper into it, because I seen them use that to make the case homosexuality was okay. I am sorry though, I don't know how I misunderstood it so much to get it so wrong. My last comment. New comment: I agree. :D
It is sad that anyone would try to use scripture to make a case for homosexuality; however - fortunately - since "all scripture must agree" - this should easily be "shot down" by anyone truly interested in the truth.

It really is true that the original Greek and Hebrew can help us to understand a verse or passage of scripture better by virtue of the fact that those languages contain much more "detail" about what is being conveyed through the use of those languages.

It really is true that some of this "detail" was "lost in translation" when producing the english bible - not enough to destroy the core of the message of the original - but, in some cases/places, enough that the "full meaning" may not be seen wihout having an understanding of the text in the original language.

It may not "sound right", but that is the way it is.

The English language is simply not "sophisticated" enough to contain the same extent of "detail" as the other two.

There are two main camps of belief with regard to End Times prophecy - those who believe that it is all in the past, and those who believe that it is all in the future. And, they are both wrong - all because they don't understand what scripture is actually saying in a few specific verses/passages/places.

Post #616 addresses one of those places.

Once you understand that God's "timing" in End Times prophecy is not short - and, understand the true meaning of those verses of scripture in the Olivet Discourse (that the 'events' described would actually begin to occur before the current generation died out), the truth about the End Times Scenario starts becoming very clear.

The pre-trib rapture "belief system" was invented by two Catholic priests several hundred years ago with the specific intent to "inject" it into the [true] churches and seminaries in order to "throw them off" of the truth. It was deliberate deception. And - man - did it ever work!
 

GaryA

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There are two main camps of belief with regard to End Times prophecy - those who believe that it is all in the past, and those who believe that it is all in the future. And, they are both wrong - all because they don't understand what scripture is actually saying in a few specific verses/passages/places.
And - this is why this "debate" is destined to "go on forever" (at least until Jesus comes and shows everybody that they are wrong) --- because, both "extents" (extremes) refuse to believe that there is even the smallest chance they could be wrong -- while the real truth is "somewhere in the middle"...
 

GaryA

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And - this is why this "debate" is destined to "go on forever" (at least until Jesus comes and shows everybody that they are wrong) --- because, both "extents" (extremes) refuse to believe that there is even the smallest chance they could be wrong -- while the real truth is "somewhere in the middle"...
And - the more pride you swallow - having a genuine humble desire to know the real truth - the more clear it gets.
 

GaryA

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The "somewhere in the middle" real truth:

~ God's prophetic "timing" is not short.
~ The Seventy Weeks prophecy is not about the future; it is 100% fulfilled - by Jesus Himself. It is NOT about any antichrist.
~ Olivet Discourse and Revelation prophecy is not all about a future short period of time; rather, it is spread out over a ~2000 year span - from the time Jesus left until He comes back. Some (but not all) of it has already occurred.
 

GaryA

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Some people are willing to agree that Luke 21:20-24 is describing events circa 70 A.D. --- but, "for some strange reason" - are not willing to see that Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 are talking about the same thing!

??????????

It's three accounts of the same discourse, folks!

The 'Great Tribulation' started in 70 A.D.

People don't want to believe this because they want to believe that ALL of the "negative-sounding events" of End Times prophecy have-to-be by-definition 10,000,000 times worse than anything that has ever happened on earth.

You need to understand what to compare to to properly understand what scripture is saying with regard to "never before or since"...

What about the events circa 70 A.D.???

What do you think the Dark Ages were???

What about the Jewish Holocaust???

What about the World Wars???

And there is/was much, much more!

And it is not over yet!

According to the Bible, the worst is yet to come!

If you pay really close attention to how the Bible defines the start of the Great Tribulation and how the Bible defines the end of the Great Tribulation, you will find - in the "details" - what I am telling you.

The GT could not have started and ended circa 70 A.D. - because of things that we know with certainty have not happened yet. However, we know beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt that it started in 70 A.D. -- IF (and only if) we are willing to let go of the "crap" we have been taught (read: brainwashed with) and look at what scripture is actually saying.
 

GaryA

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We know the GT ends in the future - because of things that have not occurred yet.

(I couldn't get the edit in on time.)
 

GaryA

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Yes - I believe that the Trumpet events are about 3.5 years and that the Vials represent an even [much] shorter period of time.

These are short periods of time.

However --- what the Seals represent - and a lot of the 'beast' prophecy (ex: see post #593) - are spread out over ~2000 years.
 

GaryA

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The "somewhere in the middle" real truth:

~ God's prophetic "timing" is not short.
~ The Seventy Weeks prophecy is not about the future; it is 100% fulfilled - by Jesus Himself. It is NOT about any antichrist.
~ Olivet Discourse and Revelation prophecy is not all about a future short period of time; rather, it is spread out over a ~2000 year span - from the time Jesus left until He comes back. Some (but not all) of it has already occurred.
This was an add-on at the last minute - as you can tell by the improper grammar. (haha)

I am specifically referring to the 70th week - not the whole 70 weeks.
 

GaryA

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By keeping a person's attention and conviction strongly focused on either the 'past' short period of time or the 'future' short period of time, Satan blinds them from the simple truth that it has been unfolding right in front of them over a long period of time.

Yes, the "terrible conclusion of it all" is still yet future.

However - what better understanding can be had if you know who [some of] the players are in the End Times Scenario.

Some is past; some is present; some is future.
 

GaryA

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The pre-trib rapture "belief system" was invented by two Catholic priests several hundred years ago with the specific intent to "inject" it into the [true] churches and seminaries in order to "throw them off" of the truth. It was deliberate deception. And - man - did it ever work!
I did not write this to insult anyone.

It is more like...

"Christian love is trying to wake you up and get you out of the MATRIX."

To all of my born-again Christian brothers and sisters who are caught up in the pre-trib rapture "belief system" (I once was, but I thank God that He opened my eyes and got me out of it.) -- I say -- it is a lie of Satan!

PLEASE consider what I am saying to you. YOU have been deceived in one of the worst possible ways. PLEASE swallow your pride and ask God to help you see through the lie. LET GO of the poison that has you.

Please WAKE UP!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ GaryA, I don't have but a minute here (so don't have time to explain or elaborate on my question to you)...

but [briefly], my question is, do you believe the following three passages refer to the same thing (the same time-frame, and the same events, etc):

--Matthew 24:4-8

--Mark 13:5-8

--Luke 21:8-11


Do you believe these passages are parallel things (that basically are equivalent to each other, in time [in the chronology of events])?


[not a trick question. :) My personal view is that, yes, they are equivalent]

Thanks. :)
 

GaryA

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^ GaryA, I don't have but a minute here (so don't have time to explain or elaborate on my question to you)...

but [briefly], my question is, do you believe the following three passages refer to the same thing (the same time-frame, and the same events, etc):

--Matthew 24:4-8

--Mark 13:5-8

--Luke 21:8-11


Do you believe these passages are parallel things (that basically are equivalent to each other, in time [in the chronology of events])?


[not a trick question. :) My personal view is that, yes, they are equivalent]

Thanks. :)
My simple answer is 'yes'.

If you would like a more detailed verse-by-verse type of answer - take a look at the 'Olivet Discourse' page in the 'Study' section of my website.

Be sure to also look at the small chart below the large chart.
 

GaryA

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--Matthew 24:4-8

--Mark 13:5-8

--Luke 21:8-11
More specifically...

These verses go together:

Matthew 24:4-5
Mark 13:5-6
Luke 21:8

These verses go together:

Matthew 24:6
Mark 13:7
Luke 21:9

These verses go together:

Matthew 24:7
Mark 13:8 (minus last part)
Luke 21:10-11 (minus last part)

These verses go together:

Matthew 24:8
Mark 13:8 (last part)

The last part of Luke 21:11 goes with something else outside of the verses listed above.