The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[sparkman]

@Eliwood

You have asserted that various verses in I John refer to Christians keeping God's commandments, and by this you imply the Old Covenant. However, have you noticed how John defined God's commandments?

Let me give you a clue:

I John 3:22-24 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

If John defined God's commandments in this manner, 1) believing in the name of his Son and 2) loving one another, why do you imply keeping the Commandment is talking about the Old Covenant?

 

[Eliwood]

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. (Proverbs 28:9)

 

[Yahshua]

So, let's cut down to the chaste. And you don't need to write a book to answer this question. Is your position that Christians who do not observe the Sabbath are unsaved and still in their sins? Is keeping the Sabbath a condition of salvation? Is keeping the Sabbath a necessary proof of salvation?

Yes or no answers would be appreciated. I don't need pontification. [Pot, meet kettle lol.]

No, I'm with ya. Salvation is by grace through faith, our Passover, saving us from the judgment of death. But THEN our journey begins to build a perfect man (which means to obey all of God's commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit). 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Please don't make the mistake of assuming I mean all of the statues and ordinances as well, rather ALL of God's Commandments; those shouted down from the mountain.

By the way, that is the position I held as a Sabbath keeper. I have rejected that view on a Scriptural basis. Even though I acknowledge some can observe the Sabbath and Holy Days while still having a genuine faith and focus on Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him, the tendency to claim an exclusive relationship with God is there.

What group are you associated with?

I associate with anyone who follows all of scripture, in it's original context and meaning. That means given the topic I can look like I'm from one group or another: Sabbatarian/7th day, Messianic Jew, Baptist, Methodist, etc.

I will quote from this source in order to save time answering your assertions.


https://www.gci.org/law/sabbath

Didn’t Ex. 31:16 declare the Sabbath to be a perpetual covenant between God and his people?
Yes, but so was circumcision (Gen. 17:13) and the weekly showbread (Lev. 24:8). The same Hebrew word is used to say that the Day of Atonement is a lasting ordinance, and the Levitical priesthood will continue (Lev. 16:29; Ex. 29:9; 40:15). Obviously, the Hebrew word does not mean eternal. The covenant that God made with the Israelites is now obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

God gave the Sabbath to the Israelites as a sign between God and the Israelites (Ex. 31:17). The Sabbath made the Israelites different from other nations—but Paul says that the laws that separated Jews and Gentiles have been done away by the cross of Christ (Eph. 2:11-18).

Forgive me but your link attempts to use the Jewish Talmud as a source for answering questions regarding the Sabbath. The Jewish Talmud is a codification of the Traditions of the Pharisees. Christ said the traditions of the Pharisees (attempt to) nullify the Commandments of God.

As you noted, there's no proof that any human observed the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16.

Regarding Abraham, he was obedient to everything that God commanded him. The content is not defined.

There seems to be a suggestion by you that God's law doesn't change, because God doesn't change. However, we know that God's law DID change. The animal sacrifice laws are an easy proof of this. No one sacrifices animals now. Physical circumcision is not required.

Even if you claim those things have been spiritualized, that is still a change. Galatians 3:19 clearly indicates that the Old Covenant was only until Christ came, so this points to the temporary nature of it...and that implies change.

Context is important.

Galatians 3:16-18

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise

In order to understand what I'm saying you have to separate The Law from the Covenant like Paul does in this passage above. In the passage, Paul is contrasting the Law with the covenant God made with Abraham. Abraham's covenant - an even OLDER covenant than the one with Israel - came before the law was given so the law can't possibly be the pathway to receiving that promise. Yet more to the point, notice that this even older covenant is still active today. Through faith in Christ we become seeds of Abraham and heirs to the promise.

1. Christians become grafted into Israel, yes. As I have stated before, the Old Covenant is not in effect anymore. Galatians
3 and many other passages prove this. I already listed these Scriptures.

2. The Old Covenant has underlying spiritual principles that an individual with the Holy Spirit can discern. The specific application that was given to ancient Israel no longer applies, but the underlying spiritual principles do.

For instance, the Old Covenant required you to marry your brother's wife if he died prematurely. The underlying spiritual principle behind marrying your brother's wife is that you need to take care of the needs of your family members. If your brother's wife dies, you wouldn't need to marry her under the New Covenant, but you do need to make sure her needs are met.

Sorry for being a stickler, but a covenant isn't a law and a law isn't a covenant. Read Galatians passage above to see an example of the difference. Its very important so that we properly separate these concepts so we don't stray to the right or to the left. We must be exact. The path to truth (and life) is very narrow. You should've written "The Law required..." in your example, not "the covenant required". Then we also need to distinguish between which covenants. The Covenant i believe you're referring to here is God's & his people's AGREEMENT TO FOLLOW the law. The law itself isn't the covenant thereof.

I'm being a stickler with this because for so long these concepts have been grouped together causing so many to slide down a slippery slope of misunderstanding.

That is an example of how God writes his Laws on a person's heart at conversion. The intent of these laws is recognized by the Spirit led person. The specific application God gave to ancient Israel, except in terms of moral absolutes, no longer applies, but there are underlying spiritual principles which do.

The portion is red is incorrect. The work of writing God's laws on a person's heart is through the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit AFTER conversion; after salvation. Salvation is the foundation (Christ)...but then Christ's work BEGINS in us.

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

...It is not instant. This is why ALL of scripture is good for teaching, doctrine, reproof, etc. This is why The Law is our Tutor/Schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. It starts with Christ (salvation) we are then led by the Holy Spirit to learn to follow God's Commandments, only to end with us eventually become a mature person (perfect in our mirror image of Christ). But many are halted in this process because they've been taught to avoid some or all of God's Commandments "because that's old stuff". They get saved but then never go to class to learn how to truly live righteously. And so, yes, remain spiritual children never getting beyond the fundamentals.

The Old Covenant law is for spiritual children; those who do not possess the Holy Spirit and cannot discern the spiritual intent. It's for people who are so dense that they need to be told exactly what to do in intricate detail. If that is you, perhaps you should stick with legalism. I wouldn't recommend it, though, Galatians 5:1-4 says you are cut off from Christ if so. Better to come to Christ and avoid the condemnation and wrath of God.

Talk about pontification, lol. But I agree with the portion in blue. The Law IS for spiritual children, who are adopted by God: for Christians. The Law is for Christians. All Christians begin as spiritual children. We are adopted at conversion. Yet, how do you think spiritual children become mature? Is it by avoiding the tutor/school at all costs or is it by humbly following the tutor/schooling provided, until true understanding is reached with its lessons so that the student can finally graduate?

One such lesson is the Sabbath. We are to follow the Sabbath *until* we understand how to truly rest in him; what that actually means, until the Sabbath is no longer considered a burden but a delight. It's not enough say "I believe in Christ so Christ is my Sabbath, so it doesn't matter which day I rest.". That's bordering on lawlessness. No the Sabbath (lesson) is about trusting in God's provision even when one's mind says, "This is a waste of time" or "I have so much to do"

[And you know Christians have a HUGE problem with trusting in God's provision...but is there any wonder why, knowing that most don't follow the Sabbath?]

The Sabbath lesson is also about proving that we will actually choose God over this world and its traditions. So we are to follow the tutor until we get the point of the lesson and until it's written on our hearts. This isn't instantaneous. It's a process of traveling from our Egypt to our promised land.

The Passover lamb (Christ) saved us from judgment and gets us out of bondage (to sin)...But that's only the beginning. Next we have to head towards our Mt Sinai and receive God's law (The Commandments). Then we have to walk through our wilderness in obedience to God's commandments (through guidance of the Holy Spirit) in order to receive what God promised us (our kingdom)...otherwise we will be forced to walk in circles all of our lives with the same lessons over and over and over until we eventually die, never receiving the promise.

 

[sparkman]

OK. I disagree with your theology based on Scriptural support I've already given. No use beating a dead horse. It may make sense in your mind, but Scripture clearly says that the Old Covenant including the Sabbath is not in effect for Christians. Neither are festivals, circumcision, clean/unclean meats, and whatever elements of the Old Covenant that you guys claim still applies. Woe to the person who gets caught up in your false religious system.

No, I'm with ya. Salvation is by grace through faith, our Passover, saving us from the judgment of death. But THEN our journey begins to build a perfect man (which means to obey all of God's commandments through the power of the Holy Spirit). 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Please don't make the mistake of assuming I mean all of the statues and ordinances as well, rather ALL of God's Commandments; those shouted down from the mountain.



I associate with anyone who follows all of scripture, in it's original context and meaning. That means given the topic I can look like I'm from one group or another: Sabbatarian/7th day, Messianic Jew, Baptist, Methodist, etc.




Forgive me but your link attempts to use the Jewish Talmud as a source for answering questions regarding the Sabbath. The Jewish Talmud is a codification of the Traditions of the Pharisees. Christ said the traditions of the Pharisees (attempt to) nullify the Commandments of God.



Context is important.

Galatians 3:16-18

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise

In order to understand what I'm saying you have to separate The Law from the Covenant like Paul does in this passage above. In the passage, Paul is contrasting the Law with the covenant God made with Abraham. Abraham's covenant - an even OLDER covenant than the one with Israel - came before the law was given so the law can't possibly be the pathway to receiving that promise. Yet more to the point, notice that this even older covenant is still active today. Through faith in Christ we become seeds of Abraham and heirs to the promise.




Sorry for being a stickler, but a covenant isn't a law and a law isn't a covenant. Read Galatians passage above to see an example of the difference. Its very important so that we properly separate these concepts so we don't stray to the right or to the left. We must be exact. The path to truth (and life) is very narrow. You should've written "The Law required..." in your example, not "the covenant required". Then we also need to distinguish between which covenants. The Covenant i believe you're referring to here is God's & his people's AGREEMENT TO FOLLOW the law. The law itself isn't the covenant thereof.

I'm being a stickler with this because for so long these concepts have been grouped together causing so many to slide down a slippery slope of misunderstanding.



The portion is red is incorrect. The work of writing God's laws on a person's heart is through the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit AFTER conversion; after salvation. Salvation is the foundation (Christ)...but then Christ's work BEGINS in us.

Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

...It is not instant. This is why ALL of scripture is good for teaching, doctrine, reproof, etc. This is why The Law is our Tutor/Schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. It starts with Christ (salvation) we are then led by the Holy Spirit to learn to follow God's Commandments, only to end with us eventually become a mature person (perfect in our mirror image of Christ). But many are halted in this process because they've been taught to avoid some or all of God's Commandments "because that's old stuff". They get saved but then never go to class to learn how to truly live righteously. And so, yes, remain spiritual children never getting beyond the fundamentals.




Talk about pontification, lol. But I agree with the portion in blue. The Law IS for spiritual children, who are adopted by God: for Christians. The Law is for Christians. All Christians begin as spiritual children. We are adopted at conversion. Yet, how do you think spiritual children become mature? Is it by avoiding the tutor/school at all costs or is it by humbly following the tutor/schooling provided, until true understanding is reached with its lessons so that the student can finally graduate?

One such lesson is the Sabbath. We are to follow the Sabbath *until* we understand how to truly rest in him; what that actually means, until the Sabbath is no longer considered a burden but a delight. It's not enough say "I believe in Christ so Christ is my Sabbath, so it doesn't matter which day I rest.". That's bordering on lawlessness. No the Sabbath (lesson) is about trusting in God's provision even when one's mind says, "This is a waste of time" or "I have so much to do"

[And you know Christians have a HUGE problem with trusting in God's provision...but is there any wonder why, knowing that most don't follow the Sabbath?]

The Sabbath lesson is also about proving that we will actually choose God over this world and its traditions. So we are to follow the tutor until we get the point of the lesson and until it's written on our hearts. This isn't instantaneous. It's a process of traveling from our Egypt to our promised land.

The Passover lamb (Christ) saved us from judgment and gets us out of bondage (to sin)...But that's only the beginning. Next we have to head towards our Mt Sinai and receive God's law (The Commandments). Then we have to walk through our wilderness in obedience to God's commandments (through guidance of the Holy Spirit) in order to receive what God promised us (our kingdom)...otherwise we will be forced to walk in circles all of our lives with the same lessons over and over and over until we eventually die, never receiving the promise.

 

[JGIG]

. . .
The Passover lamb (Christ) saved us from judgment and gets us out of bondage (to sin)...But that's only the beginning.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)
​

​

Next we have to head towards our Mt Sinai and receive God's law (The Commandments).

That does NOT sound like a good plan:

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (from Gal. 4)​

No, in Christ we are to

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (from Gal. 5)​

Then we have to walk through our wilderness in obedience to God's commandments (through guidance of the Holy Spirit)

18If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law. (from Gal. 5)​

in order to receive what God promised us (our kingdom)

Wait, what, whose kingdom?!?!?!

...otherwise we will be forced to walk in circles all of our lives with the same lessons over and over and over until we eventually die, never receiving the promise.

The Promise does not come through obedience to the Law, but through faith in Christ:

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[Yahshua]

OK. I disagree with your theology based on Scriptural support I've already given. No use beating a dead horse. It may make sense in your mind, but Scripture clearly says that the Old Covenant including the Sabbath is not in effect for Christians. Neither are festivals, circumcision, clean/unclean meats, and whatever elements of the Old Covenant that you guys claim still applies. Woe to the person who gets caught up in your false religious system.

Is there a "true" religious system? But sure I get it. I mean who would want to follow the scriptures in context over their religious system? That's just ludicrous to imagine lol. But I say beware of whose who would promote any religious system that attempts to nullify any of the word of God.

Mark 7:13
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..."

 

[Yahshua]

The Passover lamb (Christ) saved us from judgment and gets us out of bondage (to sin)...But that's only the beginning.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. (from Heb. 7)

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)
​

"Are Being Sanctified" (Active Present Tense), which begins after we are saved;

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity,

1 Corinthians 3:12-13 Now if any man build upon this foundation [of Christ] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work

Ephesians 4:12-13 ...to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature[perfect] man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Next we have to head towards our Mt Sinai and receive God's law (The Commandments).

That does NOT sound like a good plan:

One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (from Gal. 4)
​

I wasn't being literal. I was speaking in allegory in my final paragraph, using the events of the Exodus that Israel experienced since "everything that happened to Israel was for our example to whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Corinthians 10:11).

The events of the Exodus perfectly prophesies the order from salvation to inheritance for the Children of God.

1) The Lamb saves from the Judgment of God (on passover)
2) The people are baptised in the sea
3) The Spirit of God descends on the people and gives his law (on pentecost)
4) The People are guided by the Spirit of God through their "test of faith" towards their promised kingdom
5) The Children of Israel receive their kingdom

1) Christ saves us from God's judgment through the cross (on passover)
2) The People are told to repent and be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit
3) The Holy Spirit descends (on Pentecost) giving people God's word/law on the inside (Jeremiah 31:33)
4) The people's faith is tested
5) The Children of God receive their kingdom

No, in Christ we are to

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (from Gal. 5)​

Slavery itself isn't the problem so much as it's what we are slaves to that's the problem. For instance, in Romans Paul also says this.

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Then we have to walk through our wilderness in obedience to God's commandments (through guidance of the Holy Spirit)

18If we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the Law. (from Gal. 5)​

I agree. We're saying the same thing. No, we are not under the *penalty* of the law. But the Holy Spirit's function is to do what Ezekiel prophesies.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

The phrase "under the law" means "penalty or guilty verdict based on the law. You were under the weight of the law because of your *crime*. Take today's society for instance. We have laws all around us that we follow but unless we've *broken* a law and have been found guilty of it, we are not *under* that law's weight.

Because we have faith in Christ our sins have been forgiven, so we are no longer *under* the weight of God's law as a guilty party. So then we are not required to die as payment anymore, but are now free to continue living for God, showing we love him by obeying his commandments. Free and clear.

in order to receive what God promised us (our kingdom)

Wait, what, whose kingdom?!?!?!

Errmm.... The Kingdom of our lord and his anointed? Our promised kingdom. The very kingdom of which we become priests and kings and rule over the nations, with Christ as king of kings? It's kind of the whole point of all of this. It's the endgame.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his anointed, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

otherwise we will be forced to walk in circles all of our lives with the same lessons over and over and over until we eventually die, never receiving the promise.

The Promise does not come through obedience to the Law, but through faith in Christ:

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

"Those who believe" is the most important phrase in your passage above. The question is how is belief/faith expressed other than through obedience to God's commands? In this part of my allegory, I hint at Israel being punished to wander the wilderness for 40 years because they *did not have faith* in God.

Numbers 14:11 The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?

Why did God say the people didn't believe in him? Because they did not DO what he said to do (which was to enter into the land and conquer it). The people did not show faith by following God's commands.

I am talking about Sanctification as the last step towards the promise kingdom; the process of becoming set apart ("Holy") for God, which necessitates showing faith by works (i.e. establishing God's law in us and through our actions). I am not talking about Justification. We are already justified as righteous by faith (that was step 1 - being saved by faith in our Passover Lamb, Christ).

But Paul's letter to the Galatians is arguing against following the law for Justification, specifically the physical circumcision law. His point is found at the beginning of Galatians 5:

Galatians 5:16
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


The pathway to our promised kingdom is:

1) Justification (Salvation by grace through faith)
2) Repentance (Baptism)
3) Anointing (Receipt of the Holy Spirit)
4) Sanctification (Testing faith, through obedience to God's Law)
5) Glorification (Resurrection & New Body)

However, in Galatians Paul is arguing against the following as a faulty step:

1) Justification (through obedience to God's Law)

...which is a very valid argument, because if we're *already* guilty how can we possibly make ourselves "just" in the eyes of God by doing anything else in God's law? We're already guilty. Only God can declare us "just".

No we're on step 4 in this process: Sanctification. But whenever someone speaks about obedience to God's commandments, we're thrusted back to step 1 and begin arguing against obeying the law for justification again, taking us back around in circles as a people. But we are indeed to obey God's commands for sanctification. It's the work that shows our faith.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness (justification; faith) and to purify for himself (sanctification; obedience) a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

 

[sparkman]

I gave you Scriptures in context. Judaizers are the ones who are denying the clear teaching of Scripture. Claiming that the particulars of the Old Covenant apply to New Covenant Christians is an error.

Is there a "true" religious system? But sure I get it. I mean who would want to follow the scriptures in context over their religious system? That's just ludicrous to imagine lol. But I say beware of whose who would promote any religious system that attempts to nullify any of the word of God.

Mark 7:13
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..."

 

[Eliwood]

The pathway to our promised kingdom is:

1) Justification (Salvation by grace through faith)
2) Repentance (Baptism)
3) Anointing (Receipt of the Holy Spirit)
4) Sanctification (Testing faith, through obedience to God's Law)
5) Glorification (Resurrection & New Body)

That's a really good observation Yahshua, thanks for posting it. I imagine step 4 is usually where people get hung up.

 

[Eliwood]

"But Jesus! My pastor told me God's law is just for JEWS!"

lol

 

[Eliwood]

Streams of tears flow from my eyes, for your law is not obeyed. (Psalm 119:136)

 

[fredjames]

@JGIG

Here's something else to consider, since we're talking about sacrifices. A lot of people are under the impression that doing one after the cross would be sin, because it would be "attempting to replace the sacrifice that Jesus made" when he died. But if this is the case, why does Jesus say that HE HIMSELF will eat the passover in the kingdom of God?

And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:16)

Everything written in the 'Law and the Prophets', JESUS 'accomplished', proclaiming that day at 'Golgotha', to HIS believers and unbelievers, as they all 'witnessed', saying at HIS last breath on the Cross, after completing them all to 'GOD's requirement' of 'fulfillment' to them, for those who 'believe' in HIM and in faith have come and therefore now gave to them HE, the New Covenant nd called them to 'practice', 'abide' and 'bear much fruit', in the present 'requirements' of the Kingdom of GOD, according to their faith and action believing CHRIST.

For those Jews with unbelieve to the Gospel of Grace and Truth, JESUS words of 'spirit' and 'life', which will be of no use to them. Therefore they are still in bondage to the 'Law and the Prophets', and if they 'remain', they will be 'judged' according to them 'to the letter', and where 'to the letter' written in the 'Torah' have been their 'school master'. (Romans 2;17-29)

And the Gentiles who 'remain', with the 'Law' written in their hearts and where their consciences has been their 'school master'. (Romans 2;12-16)

I'm not saying that we need to do sin offerings anymore. It's not about legalism. It's about pleasing and obeying God. The Torah says that the burnt offerings are a "pleasant aroma to His nostrils". These sacrifices point to Yeshua, not replace Him.

You pointed out the verse in hebrews 9 that says Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. But what about offerings that are made out of obediance to His law? If God meant for us to never offer another animal sacrifice again after Jesus's sacrifice, you would have to disregard all the prophecies about animal sacrifices being made during the Kingdom of God, and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.

By the 'aid' of 'anti-CHRIST', the Jews still in their 'unbelieve', bondage to the 'Law and the Prophets', will want to and long to, rebuild their Temple once again and resume offering animal sacrifices for their sins, in order to please GOD. But for believers CHRIST has already been that sacrifice once and for all. Christian's sacrifice is therefore, 'forgetting self and carrying their own Cross', the word/teaching of CHRIST, in 'practice' and 'abiding' and 'bear much fruit' and also 'their fruit must abide'.

"When a Christian 'plow' forward according the New Covenant/Testament, CHRIST's word/teaching of 'spirit' and 'life' and continue 'plowing', they 'do not look back', for it is also the instruction of their MASTER of the ground they are 'plowing' in."

Whether sin offerings are still necessary or not (which they probably aren't) those gifts are still pleasing to God. So it makes perfect sence to continue to do them once the temple is rebuilt. Bearing this in mind, there is no contradiction, and Jesus's words in Luke 16:17 still stand.

Friend, do not celebrate yet, because to believers of the New Covenant/testament, JESUS is our HIGH PRIEST is serving in the 'original' Temple in Heaven, offering the 'sacrifice' of 'pleading' and 'praying' for us day and night, HIS lambs and sheep, beside the FATHER. For we already know and are witnesses, that the Jerusalem temple 'veil' tore into two and GOD's presence from the 'Most Holy Place' left and not 'resides' in Heaven and that where JESUS is.

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:17

GOD's perfect 'Law' may remain and there need no alteration and remedies, for there is no flaw in them. But men of carnal/flesh/self's 'passions' and 'desires' failed and need to be replaced to a new person, due to their ongoing weakness bound, failure to 'accomplish' its requirements, to what is perfect and Holy given and made for a moment with Israel through Moses.

 

[sparkman]

I would encourage everyone to report Eliwood for posting those 119ministries.com advertisements.

It is against the rules to advertise like that.

 

[sparkman]

Judaizers are nothing new. The Apostle Paul dealt with them continually.Judaizers would follow along behind him in his missionary efforts and attempt to impose additional requirements upon new Christians, particularly Gentile Christians who were never part of the Old Covenant.

He called them “dogs” in Philippians 3:2-5.

Phil 3: 2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee

When he used the word “dogs”, he didn’t mean a nice, well behaved animal like your household pet. The word dogs conveyed filthy mongrels that were always causing trouble. He showed a high level of disdain for them.

That pretty well describes Judaizers who claim that physical circumcision, Sabbath, festival observance, and clean/unclean meat observances are required for salvation or are a necessary fruit/proof of salvation.

 

[fredjames]

That's a really good observation Yahshua, thanks for posting it. I imagine step 4 is usually where people get hung up.

Teacher of the 'Law of GOD', which 'law' must i 'practice', the Old Covenant 'law' given by GOD through Moses from Mount Sinai, or the New Covenant 'law' given by GOD through CHRIST from the 'Sermon on the Mount' that 'fulfills' the Old which was given to the Israelite for a moment until the 'promise one' comes?

Has HE not come as the MESSIAH JESUS of Nazareth and have given us, we who believe and have faith in HIM, the New Covenant, the born again Jews and Gentiles in 'equality', as the New Jerusalem born of the free women, Sarah?

Anyone have 'itching ears', who wants to go back to the 'Yoke of Slavery' once again?

 

[fredjames]

Please allow me to make correction on my reply at post 212, on the second last 'paragraph' context, where, 'GOD's presence have left from the 'Most Holy Place' in the Temple that day and from henceforth and now resides in Heaven, and that is where JESUS serve as GREAT HIGH PRIEST..

 

[prodigal]

Matthew 5:19

​

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

mmm, so least in the kingdom of heaven, not quite in hell then... (ps. the verse is speaking about the commandments of jesus which we come under, we are children of the promise which was 430 years before the laws of moses)

Galations 3
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[h=1]John 17:3King James Version (KJV)[/h]3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Eliwood]

The Galations were new converts to Christ. They were circumcised, trying to be justfied by the works of the law, and then turned back to their pagan practices, celebrating Saturnalia, and other pagan holidays. Paul was explaining to them that it's their faith in Christ that justifies them, not their obedience to the commandments. But this isn't a reason to stop obeying the law, because obedience is how we show our love for God. Hope this helps you. God bless.

 

[sparkman]

Thus says a 22 year old who believes he is going to become a God being in the resurrection

@Prodical

2 Things. The word "schoolmaster" as it's used in Galatians 3 can also be translated "guardian". And it is in most other bible translations, like the NIV. That word better fits it's meaning. Before Christ came, people had to rely on the law for salvation, which was ineffective.

And you can better understand what was going on with the Galatians if you continue on to chapter 4. Verse-plucking from Paul's letters is a bad idea, because Peter warned that they can be misused and misapplied to cause "the error of the lawless".

Here's where the picture becomes clear:

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you!

The Galations were new converts to Christ. They were circumcised, trying to be justfied by the works of the law, and then turned back to their pagan practices, celebrating Saturnalia, and other pagan holidays. Paul was explaining to them that it's their faith in Christ that justifies them, not their obedience to the commandments. But this isn't a reason to stop obeying the law, because obedience is how we show our love for God. Hope this helps you. God bless.

 

[sparkman]

Eliwood, I see you did not try answering my questions to legalists. I think my questions are the truly unanswerable ones.