The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[sparkman]

In regards to the Judaizers who insist that you must be physically circumcised, keep the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, and other elements of the Old Covenant, I highly recommend the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. Dale is a former Seventh Day Adventist pastor and he has done a very good job on disproving the assertions that Judaizers make in this regard.

I am a former Sabbathkeeper so I know the issues and the mentality. Dale does a very good job at addressing the typical assertions of Judaizers.

 

[sparkman]

In addition, this source is great for refuting Judaizers and their arguments:

https://www.gci.org/law

 

[prodigal]

The Galations were new converts to Christ. They were circumcised, trying to be justfied by the works of the law, and then turned back to their pagan practices, celebrating Saturnalia, and other pagan holidays. Paul was explaining to them that it's their faith in Christ that justifies them, not their obedience to the commandments. But this isn't a reason to stop obeying the law, because obedience is how we show our love for God. Hope this helps you. God bless

hang on pagan practises, wheres that.. lets let the scripture speak for itself


Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


no interpretation needed, scripture can speak for itself

//////

 

[sparkman]

@Yahshua

Circumcision is clearly identified with the law of Moses by Christ:

John 7:23 [SUP]23 [/SUP]If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well

It was the one-time entry sign as a member of the Old Covenant.

In an earlier post you asserted that it was not part of the law of Moses. Perhaps you feel qualified to correct Jesus on this matter?

In addition, notice the relative importance that is being placed on circumcision over the Sabbath. A man was not even able to observe the Sabbath appropriately without being physically circumcised. That is why it was so important to circumcise them. Circumcision clearly too precedence over the Sabbath.

The argument here would be that the Sabbath itself was a ceremonial law, on a lesser level than circumcision. Almost all Christians would agree that physical circumcision is no longer required, so what does that say about the Sabbath?

By the way, I would contend that the identifying mark of a Christian is not the Sabbath, but the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the seal of God's ownership in Scripture, not the Sabbath. The Sabbath did serve as an identifying sign of individuals under the Old Covenant, but not the New Covenant.

I would challenge you to read Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It clears up many of the fallacies of Judaizers.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

II Cor 1:21-22 21And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.[SUP]d


[/SUP]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

But this isn't a reason to stop obeying the law, because obedience is how we show our love for God. Hope this helps you. God bless.

Tell us why, if you are correct, the Jerusalem Council said otherwise?

Acts 15, NASB
7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren *, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren *, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'
18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.'
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
​

Peter said no one among the Jews had ever managed to keep the Law, and we know the Law does not save, but condemns. The Temple has been rebuilt in Christ for the church, not of brick and mortar, but in His flesh and blood which lives. For the Jews a physical Temple in the New Jerusalem will be the fulfillment of prophecy that they have direct access to God just as He promised.

Because they rejected Him at His first visitation, they must wait to see the glory of God, but we have it now. Why would we interfere with that direct access by putting a list of dead, unsaving rules between us and Him? Yes, we obey out of obedience, but we already, as will the Jews in the future, have His law written on our hearts -- not out of compunction, but out of His love for us and our love in return.

 

[prodigal]

teaching new believers that they need to be circumcised in the flesh to be saved is considered false teaching by the site, admins, mods and owner. if that's truly what you believe i would advise you to move on to next topic, as constant non orthodox teaching will eventually lead to a ban and we dont want to see any banned if possible.

 

[sparkman]

I wonder how those who claim that the Torah must be observed by believers handle the three tithes that are required.

The Torah specified three tithes:

1. Tithe to the Levites (Numbers 18), which modern Judaizers consider tithing to the church
2. Festival tithe (Deuteronomy 12:1-19 and 14:22-26) to be used for festival observance
3. Tithe to the needy (Deuteronomy 14:28-29 and 26:12-13) every 3rd and 6th year out a 7 year cycle

So, in essence, 23 1/3% of your income would be allocated for devotional purposes on average each year.

In the Judaizing church I attended, they required tithing on gross income. Assuming your governmental tax rate is 30% and you had a modest family income of 80,000, 23,000 of your income would be allocated to taxes and 17,000 would be allocated to these three tithes. Your remaining disposable income would be about 40,000. Not much for a family.

Some individuals ended up leaving the church just due to financial problems, and for them, leaving the church basically meant forfeiting their eternal life.

By the way, on the few occasions when I heard of families getting "third tithe assistance" due to extreme need, it was doled out very sparingly and not without criticism.

Ironically the church had a great excess of funds in this third tithe fund. At one point, they funded a corporate private jet with these excess funds, which were supposed to be used for the poor and needy. Funny thing is, as a blind Pharisee, even though I knew about this stuff, I justified it somehow by considering it to be God's will.

I also heard a minister complaining once about people in the church driving cars in poor repair and leaving oil on his driveway. I remember getting very disillusioned over that, as I knew the reason they drove such vehicles is due to the fact that they had so little spare income.

Those who claim they keep the law, I wonder if they are aware of this triple tithing system, and if they observe it. I've seen how it works in practical terms. You might not have much of an issue with it if you're living with your parents or you are single with a decent job, but if you have a family and your income isn't high, good luck with that.

By the way, excess festival tithe was required to be remitted to the church, through some "escape clause" they found that "required" it. The church came up with every sort of way of squeezing money out of the membership. And, in addition to tithes, you were expected to budget for offerings, so 30% giving or more would not have been abnormal.

I also knew church members who were so financially strapped that they were not able to help needy family members such as parents, which speaks directly to what Christ said about Corban.

 

[Jeff_56]

those who are wicked, continue in being wicked.

 

[sparkman]

Questions for Judaizers:
The nation of Israel marched out of Egypt for a month before arriving at the Wilderness of Sin, where God taught them about the Sabbath. If the Sabbath was a moral absolute, why would God march them for a month, with no recorded breaks on the Sabbath?

 

[sparkman]

Questions for Judaizers:

Priests worked very hard on the Sabbath with animal sacrifices that were required. Isn’t this an example of a contradiction, if one holds that keeping the Sabbath is a moral absolute?

 

[sparkman]

Questions for Judaizers:

Judaizers commonly claim that God’s law never changes, however, animal sacrifices and physical circumcision are clearly not required anymore.If you claim that God’s law never changes, how do you reconcile the fact that animal sacrifices and physical circumcision are not required anymore?

 

[sparkman]

Question for Judaizers:
Paul said he was convinced that all things were clean in Romans 14:14. Are you more knowledgeable about the Law than Paul was?

 

[sparkman]

Question for Judaizers:

Mark 7:19 says that Christ declared all foods clean. If Christ declared all foods clean, why are you teaching that certain meats are unclean?

 

[Jeff_56]

[h=1] may be the case.

Ezekiel 14:8-10Amplified Bible (AMP)
[/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I will set My face against that [false worshiper] and will make him a sign and a byword, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people; and you shall know (understand and realize) that I am the Lord.

[SUP]9 [/SUP][The prophet has not been granted permission to give an answer to the hypocritical inquirer]

but if the prophet does give the man the answer he desires [thus allowing himself to be a party to the inquirer’s sin], I the Lord will see to it that the prophet is deceived in his answer, and I will stretch out My hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they both shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the iniquity of the [presumptuous] prophet shall be the same as the iniquity of the [hypocritical] inquirer,

Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation

 

[sparkman]

The Galations were new converts to Christ. They were circumcised, trying to be justfied by the works of the law, and then turned back to their pagan practices, celebrating Saturnalia, and other pagan holidays. Paul was explaining to them that it's their faith in Christ that justifies them, not their obedience to the commandments. But this isn't a reason to stop obeying the law, because obedience is how we show our love for God. Hope this helps you. God bless.

How could you come up with that conclusion, seeing that the whole book is about the effect of Judaizers and their false doctrine? All of a sudden, you think the context changes from them pursuing the Old Covenant law to pagan holidays?

It is amazing that you ignore context, yet accuse others of wrong context when it doesn't match your indoctrination from Judaizers.

 

[Eliwood]

@Prodigal

No one ever said that you had to be circumcised, or do any other works of the law to be saved, and that's not the topic here. This thread is just about the fact that the whole word of God is still true, and for today. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that certain parts of the old testament have been abolished or removed, and that's the exact opposite of Jesus and the apostles taught.

 

[Eliwood]

19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
​

What Peter is not saying: "Nobody can keep the law of Moses, so let's just tell the Gentiles that they don't have to keep it except for these 3 commandments."

What Peter is saying: "We don't want to overwhelm the gentiles with the weight of the law, so let's just start them out with these 3, and then they can learn the rest gradually in synogogues since Moses is preached every sabbath."

Make sense?

 

[sparkman]

@Prodigal

No one ever said that you had to be circumcised, or do any other works of the law to be saved, and that's not the topic here. This thread is just about the fact that the whole word of God is still true, and for today. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that certain parts of the old testament have been abolished or removed, and that's the exact opposite of Jesus and the apostles taught.

What is your position regarding circumcision? Should a believer be circumcised?

 

[sparkman]

What Peter is not saying: "Nobody can keep the law of Moses, so let's just tell the Gentiles that they don't have to keep it except for these 3 commandments."

What Peter is saying: "We don't want to overwhelm the gentiles with the weight of the law, so let's just start them out with these 3, and then they can learn the rest gradually in synogogues since Moses is preached every sabbath."

Make sense?

Notice that verse 10 says that even the Jews themselves weren't able to bear the yoke of the law.

To claim that they were just introducing them to the Torah before becoming fully Torah observant counters what Galatians says about Judaizers.

 

[sparkman]

What Peter is not saying: "Nobody can keep the law of Moses, so let's just tell the Gentiles that they don't have to keep it except for these 3 commandments."

What Peter is saying: "We don't want to overwhelm the gentiles with the weight of the law, so let's just start them out with these 3, and then they can learn the rest gradually in synogogues since Moses is preached every sabbath."

Make sense?

I also don't think the Apostle Peter needs you or 119ministries.com to distort his words.