The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We have repeatedly, but you simply shout down anyone that does not agree with YOUR theology.
No that would be you.

And no. you have NOT responded to what I said.

do you even know how to debate things? or discuss things?

let me help you.

1. You say something. I counter EVERYTHING you said by either agreeing or disagreeing and explain my reasons why (point by point)

2. After I give my view. you counter everything point by point agree or disagree.

but thats not how you work.

in your view. You give your point. I counter everything point by point

You say I am wrong, say a few words (totally ignoring every point I made) and get mad when I ask you to respond..

the whole chat room sees it (except for a few playing your same game of believe me or else).. God sees it.. But for some reason, you can't see it.


Now. I will ask you again to kindly respond to what I said, and show where I erred in my thinking?? Just telling me I am wrong and attacking me is not going to help ANYONE come to your line of thinking. it just shows you have something to hide.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You don't understand. The whole law of Moses came through the priesthood. Moses was a Levite.
They don't get it bud. The priesthood was given to make restitution for mans sin by sacrificing an animal to appease an angry God (cause propitiation).

Look at the picture. Only one could enter the presence of God, and only once a year. and if he did not do everything exactly to the book, he would die upon entering (many did)

this shows how horrendous our situation is, and how much dire help we are in need. And why CHRIST had to come..

Yet it was just a symbol, because as hebrews said, The sacrifice of bulls and goats could never remove (make redemption) for sin.

Christ fulfilled that symbol. Yet they still want to be under law. Christ came BECAUSE the law condemned, and BECAUSE the sacrifices of the priest could not cause propitiation.

Yes the law is still valid. It STILL does what it was intended to do. IT PROVES WE ARE SINNERS. AND LEADS US TO CHRIST.

What the law could never do (when it was written on our hearts, and after it was written) is SAVE US.. Or show us HOW TO LIVE, because of we COULD OBEY the law. God would not have had to give a priesthood, or send his son.

they miss the whole picture of the mosaic system.
 
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Yes the law is still valid. It STILL does what it was intended to do. IT PROVES WE ARE SINNERS. AND LEADS US TO CHRIST.

I am happy to see what you have written here. Our misunderstandings in the past are something that I still don't understand, but it is the past. If we deny the law as it was intended, then we have no enlightenment of why we NEED salvation. I think where our disagreement stemmed from was me indicating we still need the law to identify our iniquity that wars against the Spirit and we are still in the flesh. I hope you don't misunderstand what I mean here. I could expand on this topic, but now is not the time to do that. GBU
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it, really. What you write is superfluous to me however. I have said over and over "The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification." But all people seem to see that when I write is something about the law they pick a fight about something that I didn’t say about the law, like “you want to be under it” or something of that nature.
What I am endorsing is that God has given faith, plus the law, and many other things that are beneficial to us when used in the way He originally intended. I just would like Christians to understand that whatever God gives His children is important in their proper place, according to God’s will, and His love for us.
Is it really true that Christians are denying certain things that God has given us, to exemplify other things He has given because that’s what we desire, and prefer? Everything we have is from God. Rhetorically, why do we fight to negate some of those things?
All of what God has given is important in it proper place. His creation all works in coordination with other aspects of creation, just like everything else concerning believing in Him. Do we really not understand this?
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Proverbs 11:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Proverbs 16:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.
Proverbs 20:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.

Actually, I was not trying to help you, I was trying to show the difference between works of the law and works of faith.
I was more trying to put works of faith in its proper perspective. I have found most Christians have little understanding of what faith really is. This has been a life long pursuit of mine, to learn what God's kind of faith is, that I might walk as Jesus did, healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and the like.
Fulfilling the law is the beginning of the Christian walk in Christ Jesus. We should strive to go to new heights, and we can't do that if we are stuck on the law. I'm not saying it's not important, only that it's for babes in Christ, the beginning of the walk. There is more to the Christian walk, and the covenant of God, than obedience to, and fulfillment of, the law, there are promises to believe and act upon.

Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Luk 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
Luk 7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
Luk 7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
Luk 7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:
Luk 7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

Luk 7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
Luk 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.




What was this great faith the centurion displayed that made even Jesus marvel? This is the kind of faith that gets things done and the kind the devil respects and cannot stop. If Jesus commanded His disciples to; Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give, then these are the things God is against and the very things Jesus suffered and died for.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. God is not a hypocrite! He did not send Jesus to destroy the works of the devil only to put on you the very thing He came to destroy. WAKE UP PEOPLE OF GOD!!! Stop making excuses for the devil and start defending God's work on the Cross! It was not done in vain to them that believe.
 
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What was this great faith the centurion displayed that made even Jesus marvel? This is the kind of faith that gets things done and the kind the devil respects and cannot stop. If Jesus commanded His disciples to; Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give, then these are the things God is against and the very things Jesus suffered and died for.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. God is not a hypocrite! He did not send Jesus to destroy the works of the devil only to put on you the very thing He came to destroy. WAKE UP PEOPLE OF GOD!!! Stop making excuses for the devil and start defending God's work on the Cross! It was not done in vain to them that believe.
One scripture comes to mind when reading all that you wrote. Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

May God bless you in your quest.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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One scripture comes to mind when reading all that you wrote. Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

May God bless you in your quest.

Thank you sir. By far, the word of God says things more eloquently than we ever could.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am happy to see what you have written here.
My friend, Not to be rude here. But I have been saying this exact thing since day 1. I have said it many times.. I am very glad you finally saw it.. Thank you.

Our misunderstandings in the past are something that I still don't understand, but it is the past. If we deny the law as it was intended, then we have no enlightenment of why we NEED salvation. I think where our disagreement stemmed from was me indicating we still need the law to identify our iniquity that wars against the Spirit and we are still in the flesh. I hope you don't misunderstand what I mean here. I could expand on this topic, but now is not the time to do that. GBU

I think our misunderstanding started when you made a post about what you though the problem with america and her sin was. And I gave a different opinion. And you might have taken it as a slam or persecution against you. When it was not. Just giving you a different perspective.

We both agree america has major sin issues. We both agree they need to follow gods commands.

I just wonder if we see what the solution is the same..

Which is what I was trying to share.. to see if you saw what I saw.. But you got upset instead.. Which I still do not know why!!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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....the difference between works of the law and works of faith.

I was more trying to put works of faith in its proper perspective. I have found most Christians have little understanding of what faith really is. This has been a life long pursuit of mine, to learn what God's kind of faith is, that I might walk as Jesus did, healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and the like.

Fulfilling the law is the beginning of the Christian walk in Christ Jesus.
really.
so you intend to match or even exceed what Jesus did?
fulfilling the Law then moving on to greater heights, such as raising the dead?

let me know when you get there.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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I am amazed. If the subject is about the law, everyone is all in. When it's about faith,...NOT!!! All leave. What is up with that? I can't have a discussion on my own. Is there anyone who wants to talk about works of faith? It's the second part of what this thread is about.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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I am amazed. If the subject is about the law, everyone is all in. When it's about faith,...NOT!!! All leave. What is up with that? I can't have a discussion on my own. Is there anyone who wants to talk about works of faith? It's the second part of what this thread is about.
I will, but it causes contention for others because I have been trying to get us to look at ourselves and understand why this country is in such bad shape. I think it is because we (as Christians) have inadvertently given the message that we don't need the law for self governing as our forefathers intended, using Israel as an example. In other words, we have dropped the ball. so-to-speak. If a nation propagates the principles of the moral end of the Mosaic law that doesn't mean anybody will be saved by that persuation by keeping it. What it does do however is make a country prosperous, and peacful, but keeping those principles is determined by others as wanting to be under the law and they say that faith is deminished, and then the fighting starts. The last few days have been hectic to say the least. lol
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I am amazed. If the subject is about the law, everyone is all in. When it's about faith,...NOT!!! All leave. What is up with that? I can't have a discussion on my own. Is there anyone who wants to talk about works of faith? It's the second part of what this thread is about.
Re: The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

please go ahead.
which works by faith lead to justification?
you said Christians first order of business is the fulfill the Law.

and please explain what this is:

The works of the law of righteousness

just spell it out:)
Paul already did it, so it shouldn't be hard.

if i missed it, sorry.

please keep your definitions biblical.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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really.
so you intend to match or even exceed what Jesus did?
fulfilling the Law then moving on to greater heights, such as raising the dead?

let me know when you get there.

Thank you for responding zone.
And to answer your question, I would give you an emphatic and resounding,
YES!!! Absolutely, I do believe just that, and that I will raise the dead by faith and the word of God. If Jesus said we would, then it is very possible.
Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe the word of God as it is written. If it says, I am, then I am. If it says, I can, then I can. If it says I have it, then I have it. All in Christ Jesus.
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Don't you believe this is possible?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Re: The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

please go ahead.
which works by faith lead to justification?
you said Christians first order of business is the fulfill the Law.

and please explain what this is:

The works of the law of righteousness

just spell it out:)
Paul already did it, so it shouldn't be hard.

if i missed it, sorry.

please keep your definitions biblical.
I can't say I/m very good with definitions, but to put it simply, I see works of the law of righteousness as obeying the laws set forth by God, as apposed to works of faith to justification, as believing the promises or the word of God and acting on it. Basically, it's what Romans teaches.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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you said Christians first order of business is the fulfill the Law.

and please explain what this is:

please keep your definitions biblical.

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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I will, but it causes contention for others because I have been trying to get us to look at ourselves and understand why this country is in such bad shape. I think it is because we (as Christians) have inadvertently given the message that we don't need the law for self governing as our forefathers intended, using Israel as an example. In other words, we have dropped the ball. so-to-speak. If a nation propagates the principles of the moral end of the Mosaic law that doesn't mean anybody will be saved by that persuation by keeping it. What it does do however is make a country prosperous, and peacful, but keeping those principles is determined by others as wanting to be under the law and they say that faith is deminished, and then the fighting starts. The last few days have been hectic to say the least. lol

Contention?! I don't know how one can avoid it here. I see far more contentious people on this forum than the love of God.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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really.
so you intend to match or even exceed what Jesus did?
fulfilling the Law then moving on to greater heights, such as raising the dead?

let me know when you get there.
There are so many hurting people out there looking for God to help them, and all they get are drugs that kill parts of the body, then they have to get another drug to alleviate the problem of the first drug, and psychobabble to the oppressed when it is a spiritual problem. God is still very much alive and on the throne ruling. But if His church is always sitting on the sidelines agreeing with the world on how to help someone vs. what the word of God says, then more people will suffer and succumb to the world's system because they will start seeing it their way.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Contention?! I don't know how one can avoid it here. I see far more contentious people on this forum than the love of God.
while I agree this happens with some.

Alot of it has to do also with people not listening to what others are saying, Then claim they believe something which they have never said, or even insinuated they believe.
 
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Contention?! I don't know how one can avoid it here. I see far more contentious people on this forum than the love of God.
Mostly caused by assumptions, and wanting to differ, I would say. Just the way it is. It sure doesn't help those who really want answers with a sincere heart. By the time all is said and done, and then probably still not done, assumptions and confusion takes precedence, and there is more damage than anything else.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now we know who is in control when that is purposefully propagated.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
There are so many hurting people out there looking for God to help them, and all they get are drugs that kill parts of the body, then they have to get another drug to alleviate the problem of the first drug, and psychobabble to the oppressed when it is a spiritual problem. God is still very much alive and on the throne ruling. But if His church is always sitting on the sidelines agreeing with the world on how to help someone vs. what the word of God says, then more people will suffer and succumb to the world's system because they will start seeing it their way.
so how do we help?

1. Give them the law (which will judge them)
2. Give them the gospel. to show them what really can fill their emptiness.

something has to help fill that void of emptiness, which they try so desperately to fill by their sin, Only by filling this void can the need to sin (self help) be stopped would you not agree??

seems we have two views here.
 
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Which is what I was trying to share.. to see if you saw what I saw.. But you got upset instead.. Which I still do not know why!!
Maybe it's because I love my country and feeling like you were being confrontational. Time will tell. I just see a great evil in the world, and I don't feel that it is being addressed properly. It's all because of love, I guess.
Waiting for us to continue with understanding and the peace that passes all understanding. :rolleyes:

We can also discuss in the private mail if you would like that.
 
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