The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[eternally-gratefull]

Now to go back to the beginning in what I was TRYING to say The works of the law of righteousness and works by faith to justification

should work together, and complement each other in God's perfect will. If they can't seem to do that, then there is a mix of false religion, and a distortion of the truth. That was the totality of all that I was saying. Wasn't very hard to understand was it? The again, it might be for some.

No it is not hard to understand

Your trying to be justified by the works of the law and mixing it with works of faith. You just made that very clear.

Scripture says otherwise. It says we are under law until we find grace and are born again. THEN (AFTER WE ARE JUSTIFED) the works of faith help and empower us to do what we could not do before. Which in a round about way, is the works of the law (not because we are under law. But because we UNDERSTAND how God created us, and what it takes to please him. doing this and learning this will cause us not to think of self. (god fulfills our desires) thus sin would not creep in, because we are outward focused. NOT INWARD focused.

And here I had a 62 year old lady tell me you were not trying to say this.

You both should apologize.

Now.

is ANYONE going to show me were I erred in what I think? or are we going to continue to judge??

 

[just-me]

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

I will not entertain your comments to a great extent for we agree on several things yet I find you confrontational. There is only one change to the law, and that is the Priesthood is now via the tribe of Judah. That's the only change.

Hebrews 7:11-16 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 

[zone]

I will not entertain your comments to a great extent for we agree on several things yet I find you confrontational. There is only one change to the law, and that is the Priesthood is now via the tribe of Judah. That's the only change.

Hebrews 7:11-16 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

no...the King is of Judah.
Jesus' Priesthood is after the similitude of Melchisedec.

it isevident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

no change to the Law?
okay. if you say so

 

[just-me]

Is anyone one going to give me the common courtesy of saying how I was wrong. or is everyone going to continue to judge me?? In other words. do as i say, not what I do. that makes you hypocrites..

If I were to say you were wrong, then you would accuse me of judging you which is not God's will. If I don't say anything, then you are judging me as a hypocrite. Wow You got it down. Who is judging who? I'll rest and endure your judgment. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Bluecomet]

Restudy you do not understand what judge means.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I were to say you were wrong, then you would accuse me of judging you which is not God's will.

Not if you said

I disagree with you on this point, And this is why

As far as this point goes, I disagree, and this is why..

That is called having a discussion of views.

If I don't say anything, then you are judging me as a hypocrite. Wow You got it down. Who is judging who? I'll rest and endure your judgment. May God have mercy on your soul.

lol. God has had mercy on my soul. He freed me from your legalistic self righteous viewpoint, of which drowned me in religion for almost 20 years..

And you have said nothing.. You have not once showed how I erred in my points, all you have done is judged.

Thus my comment stands!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Restudy you do not understand what judge means.

Judge not lest ye be judged

Thats all we need to know.

Jesus said he di dnot come to judge the world. he came to save it. Lets help him save the world and stop judging the world. before it is too late. and they are all judged..

 

[just-us-2]

what were you fighting for in those wars?
do you know?
i do.
in most cases, yes, your comrades died in vain.
they may have had thoughts of God and country.
that's not why they died.

That's a real nice thing to say to one of America's veterans of foreign wars! Those who willingly went where their government said they had to go "to protect our freedom," and protect the right of foolish people to say foolish things and not get thrown in prison for it... and for hateful people to spew hateful lies and twist others' words...for younger people to totally ignore the wisdom learned by those veterans as they try to pass it on to make things easier for them. You sound like an old hippie... you know the "free love" flower children who said their way was better than any other. Some of them elected to get a college deferment so they wouldn't have to go fight an unpopular war and stayed here and went to college, they may have gotten a degree but have NO common sense.

 

[Bluecomet]

Your freedom is in Christ.

 

[Hoffco]

Hi to you all, It is a while since I been in here; IT IS NOT PLEASENT READING ,at this time. What can we do to make our learning time together more joyful? May I suggest. that we stick to quoting God's word, and keep personal feelings out of our conversation, Please!
I have shared a lot of trues in the other room,Conspiracies and corruptions, please read them. If we would all used the principles of good hermeneutics (interpretation)we can all get on the same page. Hoffco
ps. If we have a good, biblical, world view, (God's),we would all be happier.

 

[know1]

Galatians 6:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Corruption in this verse is referring to the physical body decaying, not eternal death.

 

[zone]

That's a real nice thing to say to one of America's veterans of foreign wars!

HE ASKED.

i answered according to my convictions.

i'm under no compulsion to worship the military.

i'm a canadian.

as well, i don't automatically make heroes out of men (or women) who go to war.

that's an american thing - troop worship.

Those who willingly went where their government said they had to go "to protect our freedom,"

and where was that?
was your freedom at stake in vietnam?

where is YOUR freedom at stake?

be explicit...none of this vague emotional manipulation.

and protect the right of foolish people to say foolish things and not get thrown in prison for it...

blah blah...if it makes you feel better to repeat that mantra, that's fine.
i don't have to swallow it though.

and i don't...ever.

the Constitution protects the right of foolish people to say foolish things and not get thrown in prison for it.

not the military. (and certainly not in other people's nations - war crimes is what i see)

yours done crossed the RUBICON. cuz ya worship them.
now you're conquered from within.


every place america takes freedom and democracy people get their heads blown off.

and for hateful people to spew hateful lies and twist others' words...

post them. what hateful lies?

that men went to immoral wars-for-profit under false pretenses and died in vain?

Newsflash: that's not a lie.

talk about manipulation.
it doesn't work on me.

produce the evidence.

for younger people to totally ignore the wisdom learned by those veterans as they try to pass it on to make things easier for them.

what wisdom?
that as Butler said WAR IS A RACKET?
what wisdom?
WAR IS HELL?

You sound like an old hippie... you know the "free love" flower children who said their way was better than any other.

LOLOLOL......if only you knew, lady

your kind of mindless patriotism and call to kill without any clue WHY i reject completely.
couldn't care less what you think.

wave your flag-idol.
means nothing to me.

what way is better? WAR is better than PEACE?
k.

Some of them elected to get a college deferment so they wouldn't have to go fight an unpopular war and stayed here and went to college, they may have gotten a degree but have NO common sense.

ya i know. they came up here and hid.
and you lost that war.

all those dead men for ZERO.

fake hills to take and die on.

a ROTHSCHILD game.
sorry if that hurts.

same as today...any clue why the M.E. vets are committing suicide?
they get there and find out it's a scam.

just like the poor guys from Nam.


NOTE: i have respect for some men of honour - see Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire
some of the others i feel sorry for.
the majority i have nothing but contempt for them.

meanwhile:

[video=youtube;iQqHzPzQsMg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqHzPzQsMg[/video]

 

[just-me]

Hi to you all, It is a while since I been in here; IT IS NOT PLEASENT READING ,at this time. What can we do to make our learning time together more joyful? May I suggest. that we stick to quoting God's word, and keep personal feelings out of our conversation, Please!
I have shared a lot of trues in the other room,Conspiracies and corruptions, please read them. If we would all used the principles of good hermeneutics (interpretation)we can all get on the same page. Hoffco
ps. If we have a good, biblical, world view, (God's),we would all be happier.

Good point. I was addressing the comment of the original post way back in #250. I made the mistake of mentioning the Mosaic law. Some took it the wrong way. You may like to follow the script, and scripture that I suggest and then you can see how the contention escalated. I would appreciate your input. thank you.

 

[know1]

Faith in God's finished work over works of the law:


There was a person that died and was sent to hell. Upon realizing he was in Hell, He rejected this as to be so! He said he was not to be there in Hell. He did not belong. So he sought out the Devil inquiring why he was in Hell, and stating he did not belong. He asked Why am I here? I am sure I do not belong here.
The devil replies after looking over his list of names that are to be there, and replies, you are right, you are not to be here. You see that door over there, all you got to do is go through that door and you will be in heaven. But before you get to go through it, You need to accomplish a list of tasks first.
So the man sets out to accomplish these tasks given and completes them. He then goes back to the devil and says he has completed the given tasks, and is ready to now go through the door.
The Devil interupts and convinces the man he needs to accopmplish another list, then another one. and on and on. Finally after the man keeps coming back, to go through the door. He now finds new lists taped onto the door for him to do, then he could pass through.
Well this goes on for years and finally the man gives up trying so hard to go through the door and into heaven. Feeling it is useless he takes the latest note on the door and rips it up, then leans against the door in exhaustion, he has had it he is done.
To his amazament the door opens and never was locked, and finds himself in Heaven, realizing he could have just gone through the door the first day. The door was never locked, only his belief kept him from entering into. ( deceived into working for salvation)
I find this so common with man and his feeling of worth. We are loved and all anyone needs to do is just go through the door.

Again, you are equating works of the law/flesh with eternal salvation. Though I enjoyed reading your allegorical story, you have yet to perceive or understand what I have been talking about. I am not attacking your freedom in Christ Jesus by addressing works of the law.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Sowing to the flesh or to self, causes the physical body to break down, even age, early in life.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
I believe, breaking the commandments of God evokes a curse on the transgressor to cause early destruction/decay/corruption of the physical body.
John said there are certain sins that would cause one to die quickly, I don't know what that is, but again, I believe it has to do with life in the flesh. I believe this opens the door to diseases and sicknesses, and to some, to the point of death. Even though the word says we are redeemed from the curse of the law through Christ. I don't understand everything at this time, but think I have the gist of it.

 

[know1]

Re: The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification
See post #258

So this is a loaded statement that puts the same thing at odds with one another in my mind. The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification. Faith in God and the three aspects which I mentioned above, is righteous. That's God's righteousness toward us. Faith in that righteousness through Jesus Christ justifies us. So God gave the law and He didn't give us anything unrighteous. As Christians it should be our heart's desire to reciprocate by faith to His righteousness, including the Mosaic Law in the proper context as God intended through Christ Jesus.

John 14:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If Jesus created all things as mentioned in Colossians 1:16 (KJV) The principalities concern His law.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

If all things were created by Him and for Him, there is as much gravity to the Mosaic law today (in the Spirit of understanding) as there always has been.

If you don't mind sir, for the sake of argument, I would like to put the law to one side for now, and focus on faith in the promises of God. Obedience to the law is as faith is to the promises of God. It really doesn't require faith to obey a command or written law, but faith is require to obtain a promise of God.
There is no fighting the good fight of faith in obeying the law. There is however a fight of faith, in obtaining something you want or desire via God's promises. It is necessary to resist the devil with the shield of faith and the sword of the Spirit, to call things which be not as though they were, to walk by faith and not by sight, or by what you hear or feel. It is holding fast to your confession without wavering, or being double minded regardless of the circumstances. It is having and receiving before you see it in the natural. It is believing what God has said in His word with corresponding works/action that line up with you faith, above anything and everything the devil and this world throws at you.
For example, let's say you get the flu, and it's the really nasty kind. You go to God in prayer, asking Him to heal you. You don't feel any different after a while and so go to the medicine cabinet to get some type of relief. So, what happened, did God say, no, because you didn't feel any different?
The answer is an emphatic, NO!!! God was not saying such a thing or that it was not His will for you to get healed. That goes against His word. This is where you start to resist the devil and fight the good fight of faith with the word of God saying, it is written!!! Knowing that God's word prospers in the thing where unto it was sent and that God is faithful who promised. Acting as if you had already been healed until you get the desired results. It wouldn't be a fight if you got it instantly. Not say that it doesn't happen.
Though this is really a bad example, not to mention, poorly worded, it is however the kind of faith God is looking for that justifies us before Him. This is the kind of faith that is dead without works, and it is entirely different than the works of the law.

 

[just-me]

If you don't mind sir, for the sake of argument, I would like to put the law to one side for now, and focus on faith in the promises of God. Obedience to the law is as faith is to the promises of God. It really doesn't require faith to obey a command or written law, but faith is require to obtain a promise of God.
There is no fighting the good fight of faith in obeying the law.

I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it, really. What you write is superfluous to me however. I have said over and over "The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification." But all people seem to see that when I write is something about the law they pick a fight about something that I didn’t say about the law, like “you want to be under it” or something of that nature.
What I am endorsing is that God has given faith, plus the law, and many other things that are beneficial to us when used in the way He originally intended. I just would like Christians to understand that whatever God gives His children is important in their proper place, according to God’s will, and His love for us.
Is it really true that Christians are denying certain things that God has given us, to exemplify other things He has given because that’s what we desire, and prefer? Everything we have is from God. Rhetorically, why do we fight to negate some of those things?
All of what God has given is important in it proper place. His creation all works in coordination with other aspects of creation, just like everything else concerning believing in Him. Do we really not understand this?
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Proverbs 11:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Proverbs 16:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work.
Proverbs 20:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is only one change to the law, and that is the Priesthood is now via the tribe of Judah. That's the only change.

Hebrews 7:11-16 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12[/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
.

Covenant, priesthood, and law all go together. You can't pick and choose what you want. Since the priesthood has changed, the law has to change also because the law of the covenant comes from the priesthood.

 

[john832]

Covenant, priesthood, and law all go together. You can't pick and choose what you want. Since the priesthood has changed, the law has to change also because the law of the covenant comes from the priesthood.

And the Law that changed is this...

Num 18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.

What does a change in the Priesthood have to do with this...

Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Change the Law so that now it is acceptable to steal? No, the change in the Law is shown to be about Num 18:1-2 in the passage you quote from...

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

But misunderstandings occur when one only reads a portion of the passage.

 

[john832]

No it is not hard to understand

Your trying to be justified by the works of the law and mixing it with works of faith. You just made that very clear.

Scripture says otherwise. It says we are under law until we find grace and are born again. THEN (AFTER WE ARE JUSTIFED) the works of faith help and empower us to do what we could not do before. Which in a round about way, is the works of the law (not because we are under law. But because we UNDERSTAND how God created us, and what it takes to please him. doing this and learning this will cause us not to think of self. (god fulfills our desires) thus sin would not creep in, because we are outward focused. NOT INWARD focused.

And here I had a 62 year old lady tell me you were not trying to say this.

You both should apologize.

Now.

is ANYONE going to show me were I erred in what I think? or are we going to continue to judge??

We have repeatedly, but you simply shout down anyone that does not agree with YOUR theology.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And the Law that changed is this...

You don't understand. The whole law of Moses came through the priesthood. Moses was a Levite.