The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[know1]

so how do we help?

1. Give them the law (which will judge them)
2. Give them the gospel. to show them what really can fill their emptiness.

something has to help fill that void of emptiness, which they try so desperately to fill by their sin, Only by filling this void can the need to sin (self help) be stopped would you not agree??

seems we have two views here.

That is correct, we do have two different views. Many of the people that need help are Christians. They already know the law and have heard the gospel.
My wife is currently talking to two women who were badly abused. One when she was a child and the other during adulthood. Both have multiple problems in their lives, and both claim to be Christians, though I question one of them. By the way, the abuses that both of these women , as well as most women, suffered at the hands of men. If they already have Jesus, then they need something more, for physical, mental, and emotional healing. Most people think because they are born again, that the blessings should come on them automatically, when they don't. Everything is by faith.

 

[know1]

So, as long as no one else is adding to this thread, I will reiterate a point that I was trying to make that I wish people in the Christian sector could understand and endorse it to the populace of this country. In order, God has worked the 6 days of creation, given of the law by his righteousness, the faith is a gift from Him producing works by faith, and He justifies us through His works and gift to us called salvation. It's all from Him so it really shouldn't read "works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification". see post #262, through #264 and # 258

I suppose it all depends on how you see it. I see a big split between works of the law and works of faith. One is based on obedience and the other on belief.

 

[Shiloah]

I suppose it all depends on how you see it. I see a big split between works of the law and works of faith. One is based on obedience and the other on belief.

I see that they're one and the same. One cannot keep the law without faith in Christ who enables us. All good works in Christ are based on those ground rules.

 

[know1]

You are not far from the Kingdom of God. To KNOW what you are saying above is to KNOW what the Holy Ghost teaches, which Scriptures backs up.

Again, it pleases my heart, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

^i^

Thank you sir for the kind words, and for walking in the love of God. May He bless you and all that is yours.

 

[know1]

If Christ's sacrifice only covers your past sins, what sacrifice is there for the sins you commit afterwards?

I will elaborate for you. As I said is prior posts, I take the word as it is written and form my doctrine around it. The scripture verse I gave in that post specifically mentions sins that are past.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Which means, at the time of your conversion, when you received Christ in your heart, all sins committed up to that point were forgiven you. Now, when you sinned after that point in your life, you didn't say the sinners prayer and ask Jesus to come into your heart all over again, did you? No, and neither did you have to sacrifice an animal for your sins. So now, after you have been born again, in order for you to be forgiven of your sins, you have to repent and confess your sins to God.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now the sins you repented of and confessed have been covered in the same work of the cross by the shed blood of Jesus. For without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins. When you repent and confess it as sin against God, God in turn forgives you of that sin because of Christ's sacrifice.
Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
That is one purpose for repentance.

 

[know1]

He died 2000 years ago. How would he die for just my past sin, when even they were to be yet commited 2000 years later.

this reasoning I never understood. But it is very popular!

I don't know about the popularity of that doctrine, but I believe I understand how it works. Please read the prior post. Thanks.

 

[know1]

I see that they're one and the same. One cannot keep the law without faith in Christ who enables us. All good works in Christ are based on those ground rules.

I respectfully beg to differ with you ma'am. There are many people who uphold some of the law without having any faith in Christ. Take the Jews for instance.
Faith in Christ came and is based on the promises of God, not the laws of God. There is a big difference between the law and the promises of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He died 2000 years ago. How would he die for just my past sin, when even they were to be yet commited 2000 years later.

this reasoning I never understood. But it is very popular!

... and very ignorant.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Faith in Christ came and is based on the promises of God, not the laws of God. There is a big difference between the law and the promises of God.

This is a most excellent comment. If only we all could wrap our heads around this...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I will elaborate for you. As I said is prior posts, I take the word as it is written and form my doctrine around it. The scripture verse I gave in that post specifically mentions sins that are past.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Which means, at the time of your conversion, when you received Christ in your heart, all sins committed up to that point were forgiven you. Now, when you sinned after that point in your life, you didn't say the sinners prayer and ask Jesus to come into your heart all over again, did you? No, and neither did you have to sacrifice an animal for your sins. So now, after you have been born again, in order for you to be forgiven of your sins, you have to repent and confess your sins to God.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now the sins you repented of and confessed have been covered in the same work of the cross by the shed blood of Jesus. For without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins. When you repent and confess it as sin against God, God in turn forgives you of that sin because of Christ's sacrifice.
Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
That is one purpose for repentance.

Past in Romans 3:25 refers to those sins committed under the old covenant, i.e. before the cross. We are now under the new covenant in which the laws are not defined by the laws of Moses but by the laws of Christ, i.e., faith and love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is correct, we do have two different views. Many of the people that need help are Christians. They already know the law and have heard the gospel.

well the topic is how one gets saved. Not what happens after one is saved.

Yes Christians can struggle. Thats why they need discipled.

My wife is currently talking to two women who were badly abused. One when she was a child and the other during adulthood. Both have multiple problems in their lives, and both claim to be Christians, though I question one of them. By the way, the abuses that both of these women , as well as most women, suffered at the hands of men. If they already have Jesus, then they need something more, for physical, mental, and emotional healing. Most people think because they are born again, that the blessings should come on them automatically, when they don't. Everything is by faith.

Thats what the body of Christ is for. Sadly most churches have come to the point they meet on Sundays and maybe wednesdays. And no one ever sees each other the rest of the time. Church as supposed to be relationships and a family. Not once a week "hey how are you" meetings..

God made us so we could be out focused. it means he puts is in people lives who needs us, and he can use us. Can't do this when you meeting once a week. and only at a church service.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will elaborate for you. As I said is prior posts, I take the word as it is written and form my doctrine around it. The scripture verse I gave in that post specifically mentions sins that are past.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Which means, at the time of your conversion, when you received Christ in your heart, all sins committed up to that point were forgiven you.

That is not what this passage means, it is speaking of sins of people who have already died.

Now, when you sinned after that point in your life, you didn't say the sinners prayer and ask Jesus to come into your heart all over again, did you? No, and neither did you have to sacrifice an animal for your sins. So now, after you have been born again, in order for you to be forgiven of your sins, you have to repent and confess your sins to God.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Now the sins you repented of and confessed have been covered in the same work of the cross by the shed blood of Jesus. For without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins. When you repent and confess it as sin against God, God in turn forgives you of that sin because of Christ's sacrifice.
Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
That is one purpose for repentance.

this has major issues.

1. The reason the levitical priesthood is done is that there is no more sacrifice for sin, Christ either paid it all or he did not.
2. it is impossible to know every sin you commit on a daily basis, thus so many sin would be left unforgiven, and we would have no hope.
3. One can not repent of sin over and over, thats a mockery number one, but a lack of understanding of the word. A person must have repented BEFORE they came to Christ, otherwise their was no faith.

not to mention, eternal life, seal and guarantee of the spirit. God never leaving us, even when we are faithless. etc etc..

if eternal life is not eternal. God lied, If salvation is based on confessing every sin, we are back under law. Not grace.

why would we go back to that which can only kill us? Paul asked this question over and over. why do people still not get it?

 

[just-me]

If Christ's sacrifice only covers your past sins, what sacrifice is there for the sins you commit afterwards?

Good question. He can forgive at this moment, because He is a living High Priest that will never die. He has made sacrifice once for all time, being the mediator between God and ourselves. If we are His, and He is ours, He says, "this one belongs to me" before our heavenly Father, and we are free and not guilty before the Father who is a righteous judge. It's like a court room thing, Christ has already paid your fine, and anything we do wrong, if repented from, and confessed to Christ as sin that we detect within ourselves, we are forgiven at that instant. We are clean before the Father in heaven, yesterday, today, and forever!! Study the Word, know what is acceptable to God, and what is not and allow the Sword of the Word to cut off the things that God hates, because sin, as described in the Bible keeps us apart from Him. We love Him because He loved us first.

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself (yourself) approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I think you get the drift. It's an ongoing salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
[SUP]2 [/SUP](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by Shiloah

I see that they're one and the same. One cannot keep the law without faith in Christ who enables us. All good works in Christ are based on those ground rules.

I respectfully beg to differ with you ma'am. There are many people who uphold some of the law without having any faith in Christ. Take the Jews for instance.
Faith in Christ came and is based on the promises of God, not the laws of God. There is a big difference between the law and the promises of God.

Time sequence. It's a matter of what comes first, and why there is a foundation to build on. The foundation is Christ Jesus.
James 2:14-18 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[just-me]

here are two other things I said.

I did notice I was having a heated conversation with mikey and john about law and grace (they believe one can sin themselves out of salvation) So when I saw you, I just assumed you were one of them. forgive me.

Not a problem brother. It really feels good to be able to forgive. It's better to give than to receive. I know you already have forgiven me for my shortcomings. Thank you.

 

[homwardbound]

I am amazed. If the subject is about the law, everyone is all in. When it's about faith,...NOT!!! All leave. What is up with that? I can't have a discussion on my own. Is there anyone who wants to talk about works of faith? It's the second part of what this thread is about.

In the works of Faith is there any of my works involved?

 

[homwardbound]

Thank you for responding zone.
And to answer your question, I would give you an emphatic and resounding, YES!!! Absolutely, I do believe just that, and that I will raise the dead by faith and the word of God. If Jesus said we would, then it is very possible.
Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe the word of God as it is written. If it says, I am, then I am. If it says, I can, then I can. If it says I have it, then I have it. All in Christ Jesus.
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Don't you believe this is possible?

So are you crucified with Christ?

 

[homwardbound]

I can't say I/m very good with definitions, but to put it simply, I see works of the law of righteousness as obeying the laws set forth by God, as apposed to works of faith to justification, as believing the promises or the word of God and acting on it. Basically, it's what Romans teaches.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

can any flesh, besides Christ Jesus ever please God? people yes and not all?

 

[homwardbound]

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What type of Love?

 

[homwardbound]

while I agree this happens with some.

Alot of it has to do also with people not listening to what others are saying, Then claim they believe something which they have never said, or even insinuated they believe.

when one does come to belief in God, who is there teacher and where is the real place of worship? And what is the only way God can be worshipped today?