Hear is how it all started and what I wrote.
#250
This entire thread started with this somewhat confusing question. Maybe we ought to address it rather than display controversy.
Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Whether Jew or Gentile, faith is the justifier. If one keeps the law of the Old Testament, and has the faith King David had, (approved by God) it doesn’t mean He had a stumbling block in his life because he kept the Mosaic Law.
#258
Just a question concerning the law, not the Mosaic law but the law of our founding fathers in America. Do you think that our country would be better off if we would have kept that law, that was patterned after the Bible law in many respects. I'm not saying that this would make believers in Christ Jesus, just asking about enforcing the law and not legislating corruption like we have been doing for the last few decades. You may think that this question doesn't apply to the subject at hand, but I'm trying to lay a foundation to clarify an answer to the original question of this thread.
#262
When I speak about laws, I see them as a deterrent of crime. The Mosaic law is in 3 parts Levitical, that Jesus completely fulfilled, the moral concerning love of God and our brothers, and the consequence of breaking the 2nd. If we were to abide by the moral part that we are responsible for, in truth, as it was first given, (the moral persuasions thereof), we not only would be in the will of God as a nation, but also be knit together in brotherly love and respect. And our nation wouldn't be in the critical mess that it is in today. If we were a nation under God, such as our pledge to the flag depicts, why would our churches teach against the moral aspect of the Mosaic law?
#263
So this is a loaded statement that puts the same thing at odds with one another in my mind. The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification. Faith in God and the three aspects which I mentioned above, is righteous. That's God's righteousness toward us. Faith in that righteousness through Jesus Christ justifies us. So God gave the law and He didn't give us anything unrighteous. As Christians it should be our heart's desire to reciprocate by faith to His righteousness, including the Mosaic Law in the proper context as God intended through Christ Jesus.
The ZONE brings up the Jewish Roots thing and throws it at me. Has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
#279
So to finalize my thoughts. Accordingly, we can all agree that this country was founded upon the principle that our self-governing principles were of the people, by the people, and for the people. Knowing then that most American citizens were church going people, 50 to 100 years ago, the fault lies with the people bringing this country to the point of being non-prosperous with escalating crime. Rhetorically then, what are "we the people" doing wrong, that we continue to see this degradation? Could it be that we are preaching in many of our churches that the Mosaic Law is replaced and extinct, being extinct by the grace of Jesus Christ? Maybe we should reconnoiter and adopt the moral aspects of the law given to Moses, and start teaching, and preaching that the Mosaic Law is valid, and has it's place through Christ Jesus. Here is some scripture that I think could, and should be used from behind the pulpit.
Galatians 3:24-26 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Considering verse 25, what tool do we have left to bring others to Christ Jesus if we have forsaken it? How many false conversions might there be because of this discrepancy? So the works of the law and works by faith to justification should not be at odds with one another. They should work together hand in hand. Wisdom is what we need. It’s takes education to know that a tomato is really a fruit, but it takes wisdom to know that one doesn’t use it in fruit salad.
#280
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull
I keep hearing this over and over. But I never see it./ Does anyone have some examples of these churches? has anyone seen one they can direct to our attention?
This easy believism Gospel is around I have no doubt, But I do not think it is as rampant as people claim. And it is nothing new. James fought it in his epistle. Jude condemned it. Paul faught it, although not as hard, since his attention was dirrected to the legalistic jews trying to add the law to the gospel of Christ.
This is a far more danger, legalism and its works based self boasting Gospel that is taught by so many in the name of Christ. Which not only mocks and defames his work on the cross. leads far more people to hell than easy believism will ever do.
The handwriting is on the wall, the proof is in the pudding. People, get ready because it's coming. How do we know? The Bible tells us so.
Proverbs 1:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
#282
1. SO you have no proof of these churches. Ok thank you
2. The handwriting is on the wall. Legalism and law lead to death. The world is missing something, they sin because they are trying to filla void. and these sins do not fill that void so they try other sins, And ongoing never ending trial of trying to fill that void left by the fall of mankind.
We need to show people, by our lives, that this void can only be filled by Christ. This is why God said to be lights to the world. Not judging them, but SHOWING them the way by our lives.
#283, and we're off and running
Thanks for proving what I was saying in the last few posts. It's pretty clear to others reading this thread. May God bless you with wisdom.
#250
This entire thread started with this somewhat confusing question. Maybe we ought to address it rather than display controversy.
Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Whether Jew or Gentile, faith is the justifier. If one keeps the law of the Old Testament, and has the faith King David had, (approved by God) it doesn’t mean He had a stumbling block in his life because he kept the Mosaic Law.
#258
Just a question concerning the law, not the Mosaic law but the law of our founding fathers in America. Do you think that our country would be better off if we would have kept that law, that was patterned after the Bible law in many respects. I'm not saying that this would make believers in Christ Jesus, just asking about enforcing the law and not legislating corruption like we have been doing for the last few decades. You may think that this question doesn't apply to the subject at hand, but I'm trying to lay a foundation to clarify an answer to the original question of this thread.
#262
When I speak about laws, I see them as a deterrent of crime. The Mosaic law is in 3 parts Levitical, that Jesus completely fulfilled, the moral concerning love of God and our brothers, and the consequence of breaking the 2nd. If we were to abide by the moral part that we are responsible for, in truth, as it was first given, (the moral persuasions thereof), we not only would be in the will of God as a nation, but also be knit together in brotherly love and respect. And our nation wouldn't be in the critical mess that it is in today. If we were a nation under God, such as our pledge to the flag depicts, why would our churches teach against the moral aspect of the Mosaic law?
#263
So this is a loaded statement that puts the same thing at odds with one another in my mind. The works of the law does not bring righteousness or justification. Faith in God and the three aspects which I mentioned above, is righteous. That's God's righteousness toward us. Faith in that righteousness through Jesus Christ justifies us. So God gave the law and He didn't give us anything unrighteous. As Christians it should be our heart's desire to reciprocate by faith to His righteousness, including the Mosaic Law in the proper context as God intended through Christ Jesus.
The ZONE brings up the Jewish Roots thing and throws it at me. Has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
#279
So to finalize my thoughts. Accordingly, we can all agree that this country was founded upon the principle that our self-governing principles were of the people, by the people, and for the people. Knowing then that most American citizens were church going people, 50 to 100 years ago, the fault lies with the people bringing this country to the point of being non-prosperous with escalating crime. Rhetorically then, what are "we the people" doing wrong, that we continue to see this degradation? Could it be that we are preaching in many of our churches that the Mosaic Law is replaced and extinct, being extinct by the grace of Jesus Christ? Maybe we should reconnoiter and adopt the moral aspects of the law given to Moses, and start teaching, and preaching that the Mosaic Law is valid, and has it's place through Christ Jesus. Here is some scripture that I think could, and should be used from behind the pulpit.
Galatians 3:24-26 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Considering verse 25, what tool do we have left to bring others to Christ Jesus if we have forsaken it? How many false conversions might there be because of this discrepancy? So the works of the law and works by faith to justification should not be at odds with one another. They should work together hand in hand. Wisdom is what we need. It’s takes education to know that a tomato is really a fruit, but it takes wisdom to know that one doesn’t use it in fruit salad.
#280
I keep hearing this over and over. But I never see it./ Does anyone have some examples of these churches? has anyone seen one they can direct to our attention?
This easy believism Gospel is around I have no doubt, But I do not think it is as rampant as people claim. And it is nothing new. James fought it in his epistle. Jude condemned it. Paul faught it, although not as hard, since his attention was dirrected to the legalistic jews trying to add the law to the gospel of Christ.
This is a far more danger, legalism and its works based self boasting Gospel that is taught by so many in the name of Christ. Which not only mocks and defames his work on the cross. leads far more people to hell than easy believism will ever do.
The handwriting is on the wall, the proof is in the pudding. People, get ready because it's coming. How do we know? The Bible tells us so.
Proverbs 1:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
#282
1. SO you have no proof of these churches. Ok thank you
2. The handwriting is on the wall. Legalism and law lead to death. The world is missing something, they sin because they are trying to filla void. and these sins do not fill that void so they try other sins, And ongoing never ending trial of trying to fill that void left by the fall of mankind.
We need to show people, by our lives, that this void can only be filled by Christ. This is why God said to be lights to the world. Not judging them, but SHOWING them the way by our lives.
#283, and we're off and running
Thanks for proving what I was saying in the last few posts. It's pretty clear to others reading this thread. May God bless you with wisdom.
if you re-read what was posted, you would see it has everything to do with your dilemma.
the USA officially hasn't been under what some of the founders rightly considered the Christian teachings on God's Moral Law since 1933.
probably earlier - just prior to the turn of the century.
it most assuredly has not been under the Christian interpretration of God's Moral Law in any way but mythologically since Binding Precedent and the "principle" of stare decisis. the Christian foundations of US Law were undermined by Talmudic foundations. did you miss that?
precedent. this is lawlessness. (see Roe v Wade)
cuz you seem to be asking either two separate things about how to recover a de-moralized nation (church AND courts; or remaking the Legal system into a Christian Legal system...which it has never been incidentally).
-
the problem is self-evident: lawless but organized international gangsters now own all 3 branches of US gov't.
so you're not going to get real justice on any level.
the whole thing needs to be swept clean and remade (in terms of LAW).
in terms of Christian churches teaching Law - christian churches are for saved individuals - people with new hearts.
they can not use Law to help anyone but saved individuals be reminded of their sin; reminded of the great work of Jesus Christ in their salvation; and concerning NT doctrine, as rules for sanctified living - that third use doesn't apply to unsaved people.
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