The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[homwardbound]

so how do we help?

1. Give them the law (which will judge them)
2. Give them the gospel. to show them what really can fill their emptiness.

something has to help fill that void of emptiness, which they try so desperately to fill by their sin, Only by filling this void can the need to sin (self help) be stopped would you not agree??

seems we have two views here.

Is not God the only one that do any true help to anyone else that needs it? so what does God need of us to get this across to the ones God knows needs the help?

 

[homwardbound]

Maybe it's because I love my country and feeling like you were being confrontational. Time will tell. I just see a great evil in the world, and I don't feel that it is being addressed properly. It's all because of love, I guess.
Waiting for us to continue with understanding and the peace that passes all understanding.

We can also discuss in the private mail if you would like that.

Could it be unredeemed flesh in the way and at war with the Spirit of God?

 

[just-me]

Actually, I was not trying to help you, I was trying to show the difference between works of the law and works of faith.
I was more trying to put works of faith in its proper perspective. I have found most Christians have little understanding of what faith really is. This has been a life long pursuit of mine, to learn what God's kind of faith is, that I might walk as Jesus did, healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and the like.
Fulfilling the law is the beginning of the Christian walk in Christ Jesus. We should strive to go to new heights, and we can't do that if we are stuck on the law. I'm not saying it's not important, only that it's for babes in Christ, the beginning of the walk. There is more to the Christian walk, and the covenant of God, than obedience to, and fulfillment of, the law, there are promises to believe and act upon.
Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Thank you, I'm sure that you are on the road that this scripture defines.
Hebrews 6:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.

What was this great faith the centurion displayed that made even Jesus marvel? This is the kind of faith that gets things done and the kind the devil respects and cannot stop. If Jesus commanded His disciples to; Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give, then these are the things God is against and the very things Jesus suffered and died for.
1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. God is not a hypocrite! He did not send Jesus to destroy the works of the devil only to put on you the very thing He came to destroy. WAKE UP PEOPLE OF GOD!!! Stop making excuses for the devil and start defending God's work on the Cross! It was not done in vain to them that believe.

When we see this centurion we know that he believed Christ as the true Messiah as you have clearly defined. How did the man know? It is because the centurion knew what had been written by Moses. What faith! Thanks brother. I like expressions of faith and understanding.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[homwardbound]

So, as long as no one else is adding to this thread, I will reiterate a point that I was trying to make that I wish people in the Christian sector could understand and endorse it to the populace of this country. In order, God has worked the 6 days of creation, given of the law by his righteousness, the faith is a gift from Him producing works by faith, and He justifies us through His works and gift to us called salvation. It's all from Him so it really shouldn't read "works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification". see post #262, through #264 and # 258

Bottom line whose work is it?

 

[just-me]

Bottom line whose work is it?

Rhetorical question, I'm sure. All good gifts come from above - I'm sure we can agree on that, and God does not oppose Himself.

 

[homwardbound]

I re-read my post. I can see how it might have been confrontational.. I might have been having a bad day with legalists who add law to grace, and wrote out of this. I will attempt to repost in a more humble manner.

1. American (and world) moral values have declined, Not because of lack of adherance to some law. But because of self serving interests.

2. 100 years ago and more. people were more apt to help and think of others than self. today it is all about self. And everything we see from commercials, to self help, to psychiatry pushes this vision.

3. I do not see trying to go back to law is NOT going to help. The law condemns and it judges.. since it judges. people will not find renewal and repentance instead, you will find a stiff hand in your face saying how dare you judge me. (I see it all the time)

what we need to do is get people away from self centerdness. and get to other thinking. This is the example Jesus showed. he did not go around shoving the law in sinners faces, he did not have to, they already knew they were sinners. you could tell by their reaction. It was the pharisees job to judge, and because of it, they will be judged.

it is no different today. You do not need to tell people they are sinners, THEY ALREADY KNOW. show them love and forgiveness, as Jesus did. and how the things of this world do not make us happy, even though society will tell you different, prove society wrong, people will come in groves. Everyone wants to find what is missing, Christ is the ONLY one who can satisfy our inner selves.. this is what people need ot hear. Not thou shalt not this or that!

maybe we need each as each decides to die to self, by co-crucifying the self with Christ at the cross and then maybe we might start to see this new life that you are trying to communicate to us, is this it?

 

[homwardbound]

lol. One thing you must remember.

the name of the thread itself lends to be asking if righteousness comes by the law, or by faith (works vs faith) Which is what MOST people were arguing.

Seems you just got caught in the middle of an argument, And it appeared you were supporting the work of rightoueness through the law.

Thats why you probably got hammered.. Then you seemed to support those we wer arguing with, who DO BELIEVE in a works righteousness of the law Which made it worst..

This chatroom can be brutal..

Thats why I was trying to get you to read what I said, to show you I was not disagreeing with you. But showing you what I thought the problem with america was..Then just-me2 called me a kid.. And BAMB..WW4

So could it just be that our flesh got in the way and need to go deeper into the co-crucifixion at the death and be deeper in death to self with Christ, to see deeper the new life in God's Spirit of Christ now living through us all the more than before?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

maybe we need each as each decides to die to self, by co-crucifying the self with Christ at the cross and then maybe we might start to see this new life that you are trying to communicate to us, is this it?

Non of this can happen if people are not saved. The gospel of peace and mercy must go out first. then after people come to Christ in a real relationship (having been born again) all those things will happen.

 

[homwardbound]

I thought you were accusing me of judging in post #283. I suppose I was, but there are differences in judging. one is condemnation, and the other is discernment. If I endorse the law in a way to exhort other Christians to discern what the law is good for concerning our country, and they say we are saved by grace and that's all that matters, or something of that sort, I agree with them, but some fail to understand that I'm not addressing how one is saved through Christ Jesus, I'm only identifying the tool God has given us to maintain our country because God will bless according to His principles. The people that are supposed to have that information are the churches throughout this land. If they reject the education of what God gave Moses, we are unable to influence, and persuade people to want to behave morally whether Christians or not. Less killing of children, less same sex marriage, etc. But what I have seen is the teaching of grace, and rejection of the law, and both would be good for all. What is the problem with endorsing both in the proper manner Christ intended. So I ask myself, why are we so angry at the Mosaic Law, and then turn around and complain about the moral decline, and monetary failure that is happening right before our eyes? I'm not condemning anybody in this thread. What I am doing is discerning the situation. Others can call it condemnation if they want. That's fine. Just sharing with you eternally-greatfull, not at all including you in this explanation. Just would like Christians to see what I see.

could it be the more I co-crucify with Christ the self, the more Love permeates through God's type in the Spirit, the new life and others will see and start their co-crucifixion with Christ at the cross with Christ, thus see the light, nad God thus shines through you the vessel?

 

[homwardbound]

What I was endorsing concerning the name of the thread is that one should not be considered "versus" the other. I believe if we have the proper comparison of scriptures, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, there would be no controversy between the two. I will always believe that the entire Bible works toward one purpose and that is to be in the will of God. There is no one thing in the Bible that is less important than anything else. Satan's devices take away or add to creation in order to distort it.

Now what is the only way Satan can accomplish this?

 

[homwardbound]

I have no problem.

As I was saying, What I think people need is Christ. If we give them Christ, all the other stuff will go away.

If it is a profesing Christian, And he is openly committing sin and says you should give him grace. Then by all means, Throw the book at him (evidently discipling has not helped by this time)

If it is an unbeliever, what good is it to judge his own sin? he already know inside it is a sin, What he needs to know is we are all sinners. But God loves us so much he gace his son for us., The world wants us to think these things make us happy, But do they? what God has is far more personal and fulfilling.

A non believer can not stop sin, He needs gods help.. He needs saved first. THEN we can work on his sin issues.

As I said, I have seen leglaism destroy peoples lives. It caused me to be a prodigal son for 5 years because my wife kicked me out for another man, And I knew the church would judge me so I ran..better to run, then be told your not going to go to heaven because your getting a divorce.

So when it comes to legalism. I will fight tooth and nail. Just sometimes, I fight to hard..

Bottom line what is the war of? What is fighting when we know it is not God and is shown by Christ going willingly to the cross and Stephan not fighting back when was stoned to death

 

[homwardbound]

and I would agree with you 100 %, it is not the bible that messes things up. It is people trying to mix law and grace that does. It is these people we should all be holding accountable to truth, because they lead others to their law saving lie.

You know what the problem is, so what is the only way to fix it according to Paul?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know what the problem is, so what is the only way to fix it according to Paul?

the good news of Jesus

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Bottom line what is the war of? What is fighting when we know it is not God and is shown by Christ going willingly to the cross and Stephan not fighting back when was stoned to death

Stephen was aborn again, This is not about him, It is about those who have yet to be born into gods family

 

[homwardbound]

Brother, when it comes to talking to Christians, I am with you 100 %, the whole councel of God.

What I am leary of is talking to the world who needs God. I do not want to be a pharisee trying to judge them. I want to show light how Jesus did, Love them first. Show them they are forgiven, then when they come to him, Go and continue in sin no more..

Yes, that stung me a but also. I do not want to be worshiped. But I praise my brothers in arms, who are risking their life for me every day.. I wish they were home, But they have to do what their commander in chief says, whether it is right or wrong, He is the leader.

I got hurt in the first gulf war. Here at home (go figure) but it was because of the war.. I am medically retired because of it.. But God has blessed me with a great job and a great church..

Maybe just see yourself as co-crucified with Christ, in daily remembrance as Paul did, deeper and deeper he went into self death as he was held still alive not by self as he went deeper to the death in co-crucifixion and the new life of Christ shined more and more.

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by just-me

What I was endorsing concerning the name of the thread is that one should not be considered "versus" the other. I believe if we have the proper comparison of scriptures, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, there would be no controversy between the two. I will always believe that the entire Bible works toward one purpose and that is to be in the will of God. There is no one thing in the Bible that is less important than anything else. Satan's devices take away or add to creation in order to distort it.

Now what is the only way Satan can accomplish this?

If we use scripture to get our point across as our adversary did to Jesus in the wilderness (I'm not pointing my finger at any human by saying this), we assist our adversary. Scary isn't it? To lift one part of the scripture up in order to push another part down or make it ineffective is Satan's tactic to deceive and manipulate.

 

[homwardbound]

If Christ's sacrifice only covers your past sins, what sacrifice is there for the sins you commit afterwards?

a future sin is not yet committed and one can't predict future sin(s), and only flesh commits sins.
Just a thought if one is not co-crucified with our Lord Jesus dead to flesh, then one is stuck in sin then no sin then sin again and then no sin, a constant effort of stress and worrying.
Now it is true that as soon as a sin is committed it is past in the blink of an eye, so it stays true that we are forgiven 100% whether we sin or not. and we know Christ is not coming back to die for sin ever again, he did it once and for all.

So just maybe we need to go to God personally at the cross and die to self efforts, self destruction, by trying stay alive we are being destroyed. Self is so insidious that we can't stop it, if the sin issue was from outside the self then trying to stop sin would not be hard and might be able to be done, but it is not it is in the self life that we all here were born with from the womb on that is in the way of the new life and can't ever achieve it
So all that is left here and now is to crucify self with Christ, constantly as Paul did, to the point that he could say he is crucified, never the less he lives.
So just maybe is this what Paul meant to get across to us all that believe to die to self by co-crucifixion and thus see the new life in the Spirit of God and the deeper one dies to self by this co-crucifixion the more one see the new life and are content as Paul in Jail, as shipwrecked and whatever tragedy came their way?
Just a thought for I know unless I die ti the self with Christ, I shall not see this amazing new life.

 

[homwardbound]

He died 2000 years ago. How would he die for just my past sin, when even they were to be yet commited 2000 years later.

this reasoning I never understood. But it is very popular!

A future sin that is not committed is not yet a sin, yet as soon as one is committed it is just as fast past before it can be prayed over or say I am sorry. All past sins are forgiven, and this is not something to take advantage of it is lead the believer into thankfulness to God, and to see to start one's own self interest death with Christ back at the cross, in order to see the new life in Christ.
John 2:1-3New International Version (NIV)
2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So if you are dead to sin through the co-crucifixion, which is dead to the self life, you are thus alive in the Spirit of God where no sin can ever occur. So if one does sin we have Christ the righteous who has taken care of that and we see somehow we walked in the old man again, and just maybe we need a deeper co-crucifixion with Christ to see deeper into the new life we have here and now as Paul did

 

[homwardbound]

I suppose it all depends on how you see it. I see a big split between works of the law and works of faith. One is based on obedience and the other on belief.

Both of what you say above are works and you are splitting them both are works of the flesh, whether through belief in god or not. Both are of the self.
Is it true that no flesh in God's sight will ever please God? People yes not all, but when enough are pleased and we see this our flesh is encouraged as if we are doing God's work.
Trying to get the point across here, not sure I will praying so.
We are in unredeemed flesh yes? So can unredeemed flesh do what is right and please God?
So what has the apostle Paul said numerous times for us to do? to be alive with God here and now?
We all have many great self efforts to please others and do this well, and yet fall short and try again over and over trying to get it right, and just can't.
This being an accepted term so we are taught to just stand right back up ask God for more forgiveness and do better the next time. Now some can do better than others and some can't, is not this the way flesh works, others better than others, leaving others condemned out of place, not fitting in
So what is it we are to do those that have chosen to believe? Are we to fight amongst one another as some have and do? or does this make sense to die to self be co-crucified with Christ at the cross and thus by this and the deeper this the deeper one sees the new life in Christ yes just maybe
[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[homwardbound]

I see that they're one and the same. One cannot keep the law without faith in Christ who enables us. All good works in Christ are based on those ground rules.

Could it rather be that when one decides to co-crucify their self with Christ that one will see the new life as they die to self and the more so death of self via the death of Christ, the more one sees the new life in Christ, and does what is to be done, but no longer of the flesh since it is dead by co-crucifixion at the cross. Is it not said that flesh is the problem that keeps us from unity, and that this I what needs to be considered dead.
Did not Paul convey this to you, me and all people when he said
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Did Christ only do this for Paul or all of us, only waiting for us to believe and co-crucify self with Christ deeper and deeper each and every day to the point that we can say as Paul we are crucified with Christ, and the self no longer live here and now, and thus deeper and deeper live by Faith in the Son of God who gave himself for you, you and you, all.
I see the "The works of the law of righteousness vs. works by faith to justification"
The title of this thread is to separate truth form error.
Error puts and keeps one in bondage, and all flesh (except for Christ Jesus's flesh that was here on earth and today no more is) is in error.
God's Spirit is not ever in error, and has called us to be born again dead in the flesh as Christ became at the cross, we are to be dead to the flesh and alive to the spirit of God
So what shall we do, go on and try to do works of Faith to justification or works of the law for righteousness?
Are not either one a work of the flesh?
How are we justified? Sanctified? is it all God or just part God? Does God really love us all that much that he took all works away to give us life in God in the Spirit of God?
Will God be pleased by any works of flesh?