theistic evolution - don't try this at home

[wolfwint]

There’s young-earth creationists and there’s die hard evolutionists. Then there’s theistic evolutionists who try to have their cake and eat it too. They think you can believe in two contradictory things at once. I’ve read a bit of TE and I’ve come to the conclusion that you can’t and that in the end Biblical Christianity suffers.
I did an article for my Wordpress site (see signature below) critiquing some of the TE writers I knew and I didn’t find any good way anybody can link the two. Actually, TEists were quite willing to allow fundamental Christian beliefs to suffer in order to prop up belief in evolution.

In particular, biologist Kenneth Miller, a prolific writer willing to put the blinders on, was asked, Doulos, a Christian magazine, and republished at the godofevolution web site, was asked if he believed that evolution was guided by God or by random processes God created. Miller’s answer to both questions was “no.” In that case there really is nothing for God to do. His answer was that the most satisfying view of God is that God is the master of everything, including nature. However, the Biblical God who creates is not the God Miller believes in. The god Miller believes in is a god who does nothing.

Evolutionist Stephen Gould tried to combine evolution with creation and ended up arguing that evolution falls under science whereas the net of religion, he says, extends over questions of meaning or value. Apparently to Gould creationists don’t make or can’t make any arguments about what is true in the world as in, say, what happened in the ancient past.

Sometimes, TEists “discover” that some things that fall within the realm of evolution are explained very well if you graft creationist arguments onto them. Either way, the “facts” of evolution are taken as a given and creationists ideas are used to prop them up. He finds, amazingly, that the existence of evil is better explained by an evolving universe and ongoing creation. Apparently he thinks God didn’t finish His work in 6 days contrary to what the Bible says.


So if you really care about your Christian faith, don’t embrace this belief system. Your faith will end up suffering.

Good post! I dont understand what followers of Jesus causes in evolution theory ore even theistic evolution. The Bible in OT and NT statesclear that the world wasmade in 6 days and God rest on the seventh day. Everybody who hears in those days when Jesus walked on earth when he talked from Gods creation in 6 days and the 7th day as Sabath day that he meant earthly 24 h days.
Why the people in our days mean this is wrong? Dont they believe that God can do this? Who are the people who brought this ideas into the world. The first peolpe in Darwins days used his explorings for only one purpose: To proof that there is no God!! And this is still today behind the evolution theory system.
Till today nobody could proof Macroevolution, nobody can explain how Life came out of death material.
And for what we as christians need another truth than what we find in the word of God? Want we please the world? in making a mix between creation and evolution. This shows that we do not trust God Himself!

 

[IamWhoIam]

Good post! I dont understand what followers of Jesus causes in evolution theory ore even theistic evolution. The Bible in OT and NT statesclear that the world wasmade in 6 days and God rest on the seventh day. Everybody who hears in those days when Jesus walked on earth when he talked from Gods creation in 6 days and the 7th day as Sabath day that he meant earthly 24 h days.
Why the people in our days mean this is wrong? Dont they believe that God can do this? Who are the people who brought this ideas into the world. The first peolpe in Darwins days used his explorings for only one purpose: To proof that there is no God!! And this is still today behind the evolution theory system.
Till today nobody could proof Macroevolution, nobody can explain how Life came out of death material.
And for what we as christians need another truth than what we find in the word of God? Want we please the world? in making a mix between creation and evolution. This shows that we do not trust God Himself!

Quite frankly you don't know how God can teach people 4000 BC years ago and teach people in 2017 AD while using the same words as of old. God is that possible with His inspired Words.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Its really horrible how difficult it is for you to give clear and good answers.

---

On my question, why is our body called animal, you say "we are not plants". Ah, Ok, perfect answer, everything is cleared now.

On my question how did Noah took care (or got on ark, whatever) 9 million of species, you response is that 9 million species evolved from few on ark. Good, evolution proved.

On my question what does it mean that "earth brought forth animals" you say "It does not mean the earth brought them forth."

---

And then you start your huge agenda of your own reasoning about something else.

I was actually only going to quote the first sentence, but I have to admit i appreciated it all.

As for that first sentence.. "Its really horrible how difficult it is [for you] to give clear and good answers." I put "for you" in brackets because if you take out that part, you've just described how i feel about my own situation. That's one reason it can take hours for me to post something concise.

Although I have to skip many of Enow's posts (if they're not on specific topics) because of wordiness... I also say that I wish I could say some things as clearly and elegantly as he made this statement... "to believe in the evolution theory is to believe that death was in the world before Adam had sinned." <--that was an amazingly clear statement.

 

[trofimus]

I was actually only going to quote the first sentence, but I have to admit i appreciated it all.

As for that first sentence.. "Its really horrible how difficult it is [for you] to give clear and good answers." I put "for you" in brackets because if you take out that part, you've just described how i feel about my own situation. That's one reason it can take hours for me to post something concise.

Although I have to skip many of Enow's posts (if they're not on specific topics) because of wordiness... I also say that I wish I could say some things as clearly and elegantly as he made this statement... "to believe in the evolution theory is to believe that death was in the world before Adam had sinned." <--that was an amazingly clear statement.

Clear statement, but not based in the Bible. The Bible does not say that Adam´s sin brought death to animals.

So, I must disappoint you. The only one clear statement you could find from enow is not biblical.

 

[KelbyofGod]

x2 for unclean animals, x7 for clean animals

Actually I think it was what we would call 14 for clean animals and 4 unclean because of this:

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female:

The only way for each singlular male to have his singlular female is for them to come in (as it says) by sevens (plural). 7 males, and the corresponding 7 females. (Females frequently weren't counted in the bible)

At least that's my understanding at this time.

 

[trofimus]

Actually I think it was what we would call 14 for clean animals and 4 unclean because of this:

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female:

The only way for each singlular male to have his singlular female is for them to come in (as it says) by sevens (plural). 7 males, and the corresponding 7 females. (Females frequently weren't counted in the bible)

At least that's my understanding at this time.

Can be. It makes my case/question stronger, though.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Clear statement, but not based in the Bible. The Bible does not say that Adam´s sin brought death to animals.

So, I must disappoint you. The only one clear statement you could find from enow is not biblical.

I agree that the bible doesn't say that Adam's sin brought death to animals. And it can be biblically proven that death was in operation before Adam sinned. But Enow's statement isn't about what the bible says... it's about what the theory of evolution requires.

What I have been trying to point out is that at least in that particular point, the theory of evolution is more biblically accurate than the beliefs of many "creationists". Because BIBLICALLY, death was in the world before Adam sinned, and God himself established it as a natural part of creation.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Can be. It makes my case/question stronger, though.

I get that. To some degree...I don't mind if the implications are uncomfortable to us.. I care if it's truth.

 

[KelbyofGod]

As for whether you want to call me a "Creationist" or an "Evolutionist" Both of those as labels created by man... and I have no use for those kinds of labels. Do people actually feel more spiritual by subscribing to one label or the other?

Each of us believes things... and each of us needs to "prove ALL things"...not just join a label and claim that our work is done. And I'll go further by saying each one of us has things within our belief system that are WRONG...and God would love to be able to open our eyes to these things. But he's stopped when we refuse to be open to it.

One of the best posts on here (IMO) is that of snoozy who was able to see an error IN HERSELF. And she didn't feel obliged to say something like "Gee, now I guess I have to change labels." If we can't see even a SINGLE PIECE of our own belief system as being questionable or possibly in error *GASP* then we're really in trouble.

Pro_26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

 

[Enow]

I agree that the bible doesn't say that Adam's sin brought death to animals.

Genesis 3:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:[SUP]17 [/SUP]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;[SUP]19 [/SUP]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Obviously all creation, plants & living things, got cursed that they too return to the ground as dust from whence they had come. Even the grounds of creation was cursed. hat was why I referenced Romans because creation awaits deliverance from bondage of corruption too..

Romans 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,[SUP] 21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And it can be biblically proven that death was in operation before Adam sinned.

Do feel free to quote a verse that death was in operation before Adam had sinned.

 

[wolfwint]

I agree that the bible doesn't say that Adam's sin brought death to animals. And it can be biblically proven that death was in operation before Adam sinned. But Enow's statement isn't about what the bible says... it's about what the theory of evolution requires.

What I have been trying to point out is that at least in that particular point, the theory of evolution is more biblically accurate than the beliefs of many "creationists". Because BIBLICALLY, death was in the world before Adam sinned, and God himself established it as a natural part of creation.

Kelbyofgod, where is it written, that death was there in Paradise before Adam has sinned? Where is the proof for your claim?

 

[wolfwint]

Quite frankly you don't know how God can teach people 4000 BC years ago and teach people in 2017 AD while using the same words as of old. God is that possible with His inspired Words.

I do not really understand what you will say. I believe that what the bible says and not in human "wisdom".

 

[KelbyofGod]

Thank you, Enow for pointing to an error in my statements.


And Thank you both Enow and Wolfwint for asking for the biblical proof of my claim that death was functional prior to Adam's sin. (I'll also re-attach the other claim that it was also implemented by God, prior to and independent of Adam sinning)

My erroneous statement was "the bible doesn't say that Adam's sin brought death to animals". Death to an animal was at least an indirect almost immediate outcome of Adam's sin, biblically because of the following:


Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. <--unless someone wants to argue that Adam and Eve didn't have skin until then.. lol Otherwise I think it's safe to say that some animals died in the process of those coats of skins being made.


And that's not even mentioning the death brought on by the curses, etc.


To be more accurate, I should have said something along the lines of “I also don’t see a clear biblical statement that death was the original and only reason that animals die.” We (bible believers) often assume it is.


But before we get distracted trying to argue about that, let me explain why I asked about death in people vs. animals vs. plants. (which leads to the biblical proof)


If death is death, no matter whether it is a plant , animal, or human body… then proving it in one proves it in the all the others. If death is different in each grouping, then it can still be proven that death was active (at least in one group) prior to sin.


And the proof is in Genesis 1 (which is prior to even the mention of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Did you see it? (I posted it in context for those who want to find it before it is explained)


It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).


Have you ever eaten (or watched someone eat) a small onion or a bean sprout? Probably.
Have you ever eaten the same small onion or bean sprout without killing it? No.


That is death built right into the creation/life structure and put there by God’s own mouth, as part of a sinless system.


And if you need another example, or don’t believe that “death” is applicable to plants, consider what Jesus said….


John_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.




Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[IamWhoIam]

I do not really understand what you will say. I believe that what the bible says and not in human "wisdom".

And I already knew that of coarse,

do you know when God speaks through a person?

or when God is not speaking through a person?

if your answer is Yes to either questions, then I'd say you have a leg up on God.

 

[IamWhoIam]

Thank you, Enow for pointing to an error in my statements.


And Thank you both Enow and Wolfwint for asking for the biblical proof of my claim that death was functional prior to Adam's sin. (I'll also re-attach the other claim that it was also implemented by God, prior to and independent of Adam sinning)

My erroneous statement was "the bible doesn't say that Adam's sin brought death to animals". Death to an animal was at least an indirect almost immediate outcome of Adam's sin, biblically because of the following:


Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. <--unless someone wants to argue that Adam and Eve didn't have skin until then.. lol Otherwise I think it's safe to say that some animals died in the process of those coats of skins being made.


And that's not even mentioning the death brought on by the curses, etc.


To be more accurate, I should have said something along the lines of “I also don’t see a clear biblical statement that death was the original and only reason that animals die.” We (bible believers) often assume it is.


But before we get distracted trying to argue about that, let me explain why I asked about death in people vs. animals vs. plants. (which leads to the biblical proof)


If death is death, no matter whether it is a plant , animal, or human body… then proving it in one proves it in the all the others. If death is different in each grouping, then it can still be proven that death was active (at least in one group) prior to sin.


And the proof is in Genesis 1 (which is prior to even the mention of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Did you see it? (I posted it in context for those who want to find it before it is explained)


It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).


Have you ever eaten (or watched someone eat) a small onion or a bean sprout? Probably.
Have you ever eaten the same small onion or bean sprout without killing it? No.


That is death built right into the creation/life structure and put there by God’s own mouth, as part of a sinless system.


And if you need another example, or don’t believe that “death” is applicable to plants, consider what Jesus said….


John_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.




Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Ahh the age old argument, God made clothes from animals for humans, do you have any bible scripture to support such a theory.

do you know the purpose of human skin?

 

[IamWhoIam]

In a perfect environment what purpose would human skin have?

 

[KelbyofGod]

Ahh the age old argument, God made clothes from animals for humans, do you have any bible scripture to support such a theory.

do you know the purpose of human skin?

REALLY?... That was your main takeaway??

 

[abcdef]

Yes. I picked up a book. Congress pass a law to have evolution theory taught in schools sometime in the 1950's. So all the educational books are corrupted with that false science.

All the universities, around the world, every nation, every college, every geology investigation, every archaeology study, all history books and knowledge, every corporation that mines, digs, drills or excavates, every contractor, building planner, government entity that monitors them, in every nation,

All corrupted by a global conspiracy for the last 70 years , at least, to show that evolution is right and the Bible is wrong about creation.

=====

I would proceed with caution, when dealing with this one. EXTREME CAUTION.

 

[IamWhoIam]

REALLY?... That was your main takeaway??

Hmm lets see your takeaway, a God who created man from Dirt yet can not create human skin To protect the body from the harsh elements of this world outside of a perfect environmental garden, yea ok.

you limit God with your belief, that is the problem with this world, the limiting of the God of impossibles.

 

[IamWhoIam]

God could never create life from the death of a star. of coarse not who am I kidding.