There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[tucksma]

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


They = [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]disciples
Be one=either trinity or one of mind (that's the argument here)
Father=god
in me = one in the trinity or one in mind (said debate)
I=Jesus


Jesus is clearly saying to the disciples that he wants them to be one in him the same way he is one with God and God is one with him. If the trinity is real therefore to be one in God and Jesus the way they are one with each other means joining the trinity. [/FONT]

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

I'm not hostile to the idea in that I don't think that it is okay. If I found scripture saying it, I'd believe it. I still don't see how the trinity can be real, without believing we can join this trinity based off John 17. That was the chapter that reallly convinced me. Others made me doubt, but that was the one that really hit it. (I originally agreed with the trinity but because that was how I was raised not based off my own study).

I read that cite, and it was cool, but like it didn't say anything that hasn't been told to me on here. I will admit I didn't fully understand the trinity as a concept prior to being on here and thank you Browman for that, but I still disagree with it based on the facts that you have to add in "the father" to so many verses for the trinity to make sense. Plus John 17. What we believe has to fit with the whole of scripture, not just parts, and the trinity is very problematic with John 17. At this point it's not so much that I need new scripture to tell me the trinity is real, I have an explanation for all of that in a way that the trinity isn't real (except I still need to know about Malek being Hebrew or not because I can't find it I'm my electronic lexicon so I do need to see that one before I can say EVERY verse). What I need are explanations on How we can be one in christ the same way Chist is one with God. If Christ + God + Spirt= God and we are the same as the first two then we can = God, which the bible does not support. Also how many times trinitarians will add "the father" to scripture so it works. We can't assume it means the father if it doesn't say so. Until I get explanations that prove the trinity works in EVERY verse in the bible, I will not believe it.

t t t

Are those toes getting sore and bloody yet?

Have you ever thought that there has to be more to being a Christian than you already have, so that you can gain Spiritual understanding.

I will make a serious effort to explain it to you, BUT if you do not have the Holy Spirit already IN YOU, the Word of GOD says it is not possible for you to intellectually make sense of it, "because it can ONLY be understood after your human spirit is brought to become eternally alive to GOD via the Holy Spirit; and THEN you begin to understand the deep spiritual things of GOD.

That born again experience cannot take place until you have broken and mournful heart over your utter sinfulness. THEN and only then, can you fall on your knees before GOD weeping out of a total sense of guilt over your sinfulness. THEN with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT you finally CRY OUT TO HIM, meaning every Word of a prayer like this from your inner most being; "LORD, forgive me, if you have a purpose for my life, I want you to come into my heart and take total control of my of my LIFE. I want YOU you run it, because I am making a total mess of it!"

Until you can get to that point, meaning it with your entire being; you have not gotten far enough down, to look up and see the Holy Trinity. That can ONLY be done by the HOLY SPIRIT working on your heart, until HE breaks that pride of your being lord of your own life, running it your own way. I was weeping and sobbing for an hour or more when HE BROKE my pride, and that guilt over my sinfulness washed over me, wave after wave. I knew when prayed that prayer, that I REALLY was surrendering completely to HIM forever.

Understanding the Holy Trinity is NOT something you can intellectually ascend to, IT IS RECEIVING THE REAL JESUS CHRIST, AS YOU FALL DOWN AND SUBMIT TO HIM.

Until then, there is not much we can do to convince you of any of it. THAT WORK IS DONE ONLY IN YOUR HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Stop resisting HIM, and LET HIM IN!

 

[VCO]

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


They = disciples
Be one=either trinity or one of mind (that's the argument here)
Father=god
in me = one in the trinity or one in mind (said debate)
I=Jesus


Jesus is clearly saying to the disciples that he wants them to be one in him the same way he is one with God and God is one with him. If the trinity is real therefore to be one in God and Jesus the way they are one with each other means joining the trinity.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Gjolll]

Re: Study up...

Understanding the Holy Trinity is NOT something you can intellectually ascend to, IT IS RECEIVING THE REAL JESUS CHRIST, AS YOU FALL DOWN AND SUBMIT TO HIM.

Until then, there is not much we can do to convince you of any of it. THAT WORK IS DONE ONLY IN YOUR HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Stop resisting HIM, and LET HIM IN!

So it's nothing but a stumbling block, as I always said. It's a cult - either accept what we say, or we'll treat you as a pagan. You inferred it, clear as daylight.

But what did Jesus say: Jhn 12:44 "Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me."

Jesus said "believe I am the son of God."

You say: "unless you believe in our Holy Trinity you are damned."

Shows the real purpose for the "Holy Trinity" doesn't it? It's a substitute for belief in Jesus as the son of God.

 

[just-me]

Re: Study up...

Gjolll.

I do not dispute. But I really want to know what you advocating, and explaining how that fits, relating it to this verse.

1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I couldn't agree more that "one" means "Unit of one."

I didn't see an answer to this so I thought to re-post from #847.

 

[Expozit]

You are surely not a Christian. If you are, then you are carnal and therefore you won't understand spiritual stuff. This subject is not for baby christians, its way above milk. So i guess you need to grow up. If answering you is worth it, then this might help you. Are you not a trinity yourself? If you are honest with yourself, you know you are spirit , body, and soul. If you were made inn the image of God, then God is also a trinity, but in a greater way that you cannot understand without revelation. I will try to explain trinity, and i hope its not like putting a valuable jewel on a pig's nose. Read John 1:1....in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. All things were made by Him (him who?).. Christ. Christ said ''i am alpha and omega'' rev 1:8,11, 21:26,22:13, compare with isa 41:4, 44:6,48:12. Isn't Jehovah saying i am first and i am last. So Jesus Christ was actually saying I am Jehovah. Isn't Christ in the form of God and equal with God? Read Phil 2:6-8. In isah 45:23, who is saying unto me every knee shaal bow and every tounue swear? And read phil 2:10 at whose name shall every knee bow. Isn't it clear that Christ is God? If you are not convinced yet, what about his name IMMANUEL ''God with us'' read also John 10:30 ''i and my father are one'' '' for there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the word and the holy ghost and these three are one.'' 1 John 5:7. You may want to argue further but you not win agaist the truth, they tried and failed for ages . Christ said ''i came OUT from GOD. Christ comanded his disciples to baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Ghost'' Matt 28:19. But Peter's first message on the day of pentecost said ''repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy spirit'' .Acts 2:38 and note that the disciples baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus'' Acts 8:38. It is the Name of the father, it is the name of the son, it is the name of the Holy Ghost. If you like, take it this way. God the Father is the Soul of God. the son becomes the flesh, body of God. And the Holy Ghost is the spirit of God. This jewel, is it worth your nose?

 

[zone]

Re: Study up...

So it's nothing but a stumbling block, as I always said. It's a cult - either accept what we say, or we'll treat you as a pagan. You inferred it, clear as daylight.

But what did Jesus say: Jhn 12:44 "Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me."

Jesus said "believe I am the son of God."

You say: "unless you believe in our Holy Trinity you are damned."

Shows the real purpose for the "Holy Trinity" doesn't it? It's a substitute for belief in Jesus as the son of God.

and you teach the Monad; with emanations.
tsk tsk

 

[danschance]

Re: Study up...

So it's nothing but a stumbling block, as I always said. It's a cult - either accept what we say, or we'll treat you as a pagan. You inferred it, clear as daylight.

But what did Jesus say: Jhn 12:44 "Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me."

Jesus said "believe I am the son of God."

You say: "unless you believe in our Holy Trinity you are damned."

Shows the real purpose for the "Holy Trinity" doesn't it? It's a substitute for belief in Jesus as the son of God.

+

In the time the New Testament was written, what does "son of ..." mean?

Jesus called two disciples sons of thunder. Does that mean their father was a bolt of electrically charged plasma? Of course not. It means they were as loud as thunder. So calling Jesus son of God means he is God and John 5:18 proves this.

For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

The jews said he was claiming to be equal to God by claiming to be the son of God. Hmmm... That means Jesus is God!!!

The trnity has no motives. It is a summary statement of bible scriptures.
1) God is one (Duet 6:4)
2) The Father is God
3) The son is God (John 1:1)
4) The holy Spirit is God

Seems simple to me but fools claim it comes from Babylon or batman's cave. It comes from scripture and has been believed by the early church fathers.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I have a question for those who reject the Trinity:

I was discussing this chapter in the Bible with someone on a different thread, and as I was reading the chapter, I noticed something....so I'd like to see what you guys think.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB, but feel free to look it up in whatever translation you prefer)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]‘See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded and it is I who heal,
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Who would you say is speaking here?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Christ, the Word, is God, but not the same person as the Father. The Father is supreme. Christ is under Him, in subjection if you will, but not in the sense we use it. He does as His Father tells Him ans shows Him. I am not saying that Christ is not God, He is the LORD, the Eternal, who made heaven and earth. Who has always existed and always will. He is the One who created Adam and spoke to Moses. He is the One who will return to rule and reign on the earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The truth is that God is a family...

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

And God's purpose is to add children to His family. God is not three in one oil, a closed trinity, He is a family that is going to expand by billions.

Wait....what? Are you suggesting that we humans are going to be part of the Godhead?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

• I am curious though. When the bible says Yahweh, does the trinity teach that it is all three or just God the father? I had a class tonight on the name Yahweh and was just curious.
  
  I would also like to say I am a bible student and am searching for truth. By no means am I like pro just my faith in a sense that if you prove me wrong, I will change my faith because I would see that my faith wouldn't be true. No one on here has done that to me.

When the Bible says Yahweh, it can mean one of four things --
1.) it is referring to the entire God (the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit)

2.) It is referring to just the Father

3.) It is referring to just the pre-incarnate Jesus

4.) It is referring to just the Holy Spirit

What applies to Yahweh applies to all three Persons of Yahweh, because He is the one and only God, and He is triune.

Most discussions about the Trinity have to do with Jesus' deity, so I'm going to try to show what I mean with Him.

So let me copy and paste what I wrote in another thread:

Jesus is sometimes referred to as "the Rock," because all of YHWH (God) is referred to as the Rock. What applies to YHWH also applies to Jesus because Jesus is YHWH.

Does that make sense?

 

[Bowman]

I'm not talking about John 10, I'm talking about John 17.

John 10 precedes John 17, and informs the reader, via context, what the 'one' refers to...

If Jesus and God are one and we are to be one like them then we are to join the trinity.

You are hung-up on thinking that every reference to Theos is a reference to The Father...it is NOT!

Read the context...

I look at John 10 that it is meaning one in will and intent not in entity.

I already showed you that the context reveals that the 'one' refers to God.

The Son and The Father are one God....they are NOT each other!

Not because that is just how I feel but because John 17 doesn't fit if the trinity is real. It's the idea of a belief having to fit all of scripture, so if the trinity doesn't fit John 17 WHICH YOU STILL HAVE NOT EXPLAINED then it does not exist.

This is most interesting....as you have just admitted that the Trinity DOES fit in ALL other locations, according to your investigation!

Keep digging into John 17....as this chapter is a favorite of the cults with their limited scriptural knowledge.

Try interpreting the difficult passages with the simpler ones...don't let cultic ignorance cloud your thinking...

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

So it's nothing but a stumbling block, as I always said. It's a cult - either accept what we say, or we'll treat you as a pagan. You inferred it, clear as daylight.

But what did Jesus say: Jhn 12:44 "Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me."

Jesus said "believe I am the son of God."

You say: "unless you believe in our Holy Trinity you are damned."

Shows the real purpose for the "Holy Trinity" doesn't it? It's a substitute for belief in Jesus as the son of God.

The Righteous believe in a Triune God...

1 John 4.13 - 14

By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us. And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Re: Study up...

There is no "2nd person" of the Trinity because the Trinity does not exist, for God is not comprised of "persons" because God is "spirit" and "spirit" is not a "person" as a "person" is a human being, and "spirit" is not a human being and so not a person

and moreover

Deut 6;4 - it is breaking the law to divide God.

Okay -- first of all, by "Persons," people are not referring to physical humans or physical anything.

It just means that God is personal/has personhood as opposed to being an impersonal force. If God were an impersonal force, then He couldn't speak, He wouldn't have a will, He couldn't issue commands, He couldn't direct things, and He couldn't communicate with us.

Spirits have personhood -- as they can act and communicate, etc.

So....we are not saying that God is human or that God looks like us when we use the word "Person," in reference to Him.

As far as Deuteronomy 6:4 -- trinitarians do not violate that verse. We are not claiming there is more than one God. We fully affirm that there is only one God (Yahweh). However, we understand the word "one" in that verse to be more like a unity or a "united one," if that makes sense.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Re: Study up...

Trinity means "God is divided into three" or even worse it means "three Gods."

That's right. It's not in the Bible. It's completely alien to the Bible. That's why you don't find the word "trinity" in the bible.

Of course we confess that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father.

The godly conceive of this without dividing God. So how does Paul the apostle to the gentiles, conceive of it.

The word God denotes the Father, and connotes the godhead, which is to say, The Father and the Logos and the Holy Spirit, as all three form a unity in heaven for all are one. Christ is the image of God, so how will you separate the reality from the image if one can conceive of neither because both are beyond human conception?

Jesus said "The Father is in me and I am in the Father. I and the Father are one."

So even if one could conceive of separate heavenly entities, how will you distinguish them?"

What is the point of this philosophizing? So you can burn people at the stake who disagree with you?

Just reflect on the fate of Byzantium, the capital city of Trinitarianism, and Rome too, which has spent much of its life being the capital city of European debauchery. For what purpose serves Trinitarianism? You tell me.

Actually the word triune or Trinity has more to do with a tri-unity. Neither the three parts of the definition nor the united part of the definition can be ignored.

You are only seeing the three parts section of the definition. If we only believed in three parts (and there was no unity), then we would be tritheists.

Although the word "trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible, the concept is important. Why? Because that is the evidence that the Bible points to. The doctrine reflects what God has revealed about Himself. Also, Jesus made a statement that seems to make believing in His deity an issue of salvation. Since there is only one God, and it is obvious that the Father is God, yet Jesus claimed to be God, Jesus must be the same God as the Father. Yet, Jesus and the Father are somehow distinct, as Jesus isn't the Father, and the Father isn't Jesus. Hence, there must be at least two Persons who are the one true God.

Nothing else makes sense, given the evidence that we have in the Bible.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Re: Study up...

The Trinity. It had to mandate that its three Gods, specifically God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (or rather God the Theokotos - that's another deception) were one God in order to deceive the world.

Rev 13:11 "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Rev 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Rev 13:15 "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

Here we see the Trinitarian beast revert the world back to paganism by deception, giving life to the "image of the beast." i.e. pagan idols. Trinitarianism gives life to the old pagan idol system.

The Trinity does not comprise of three different gods. If you think it does, then you do not understand it properly.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Re: Study up...

Do you have scripture of Jesus being called Yahweh? asking out of curiosity because if so that would be something I'd have to look at.

Yes -- there are a ton of them. But first, I would like someone to answer my question about Deuteronomy 32:39. Who do you believe it is referring to?

 

[Bowman]

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


They = disciples
Be one=either trinity or one of mind (that's the argument here)
Father=god
in me = one in the trinity or one in mind (said debate)
I=Jesus


Jesus is clearly saying to the disciples that he wants them to be one in him the same way he is one with God and God is one with him. If the trinity is real therefore to be one in God and Jesus the way they are one with each other means joining the trinity.

There you go again...artificially inserting the term Theos, when, in fact, Father is used.

Jesus is the one God just as much as The Father is.....you really need to understand this basic building block of scripture.

Further, John 17 NEVER states that the Righteous will become part of the Trinity.....it explains itself....'The Glory' has been given to them...i.e. The Son has been given to them....NOT that they now have deity and are part of the Trinity - but that they are saved...

 

[tucksma]

Re: Study up...

t t t

Are those toes getting sore and bloody yet?

Have you ever thought that there has to be more to being a Christian than you already have, so that you can gain Spiritual understanding.

I will make a serious effort to explain it to you, BUT if you do not have the Holy Spirit already IN YOU, the Word of GOD says it is not possible for you to intellectually make sense of it, "because it can ONLY be understood after your human spirit is brought to become eternally alive to GOD via the Holy Spirit; and THEN you begin to understand the deep spiritual things of GOD.

That born again experience cannot take place until you have broken and mournful heart over your utter sinfulness. THEN and only then, can you fall on your knees before GOD weeping out of a total sense of guilt over your sinfulness. THEN with the help of the HOLY SPIRIT you finally CRY OUT TO HIM, meaning every Word of a prayer like this from your inner most being; "LORD, forgive me, if you have a purpose for my life, I want you to come into my heart and take total control of my of my LIFE. I want YOU you run it, because I am making a total mess of it!"

Until you can get to that point, meaning it with your entire being; you have not gotten far enough down, to look up and see the Holy Trinity. That can ONLY be done by the HOLY SPIRIT working on your heart, until HE breaks that pride of your being lord of your own life, running it your own way. I was weeping and sobbing for an hour or more when HE BROKE my pride, and that guilt over my sinfulness washed over me, wave after wave. I knew when prayed that prayer, that I REALLY was surrendering completely to HIM forever.

Understanding the Holy Trinity is NOT something you can intellectually ascend to, IT IS RECEIVING THE REAL JESUS CHRIST, AS YOU FALL DOWN AND SUBMIT TO HIM.

Until then, there is not much we can do to convince you of any of it. THAT WORK IS DONE ONLY IN YOUR HEART BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Stop resisting HIM, and LET HIM IN!

Well that's odd I was exactly like that, and still am Just not actually crying at the moment.

Browman is at least providing scripture for his points youre avoiding the debate entirely. Explain to me John 17:21 that I've brought up.

 

[tucksma]

There you go again...artificially inserting the term Theos, when, in fact, Father is used.

Jesus is the one God just as much as The Father is.....you really need to understand this basic building block of scripture.

Further, John 17 NEVER states that the Righteous will become part of the Trinity.....it explains itself....'The Glory' has been given to them...i.e. The Son has been given to them....NOT that they now have deity and are part of the Trinity - but that they are saved...

But it says that I, a disciple, or you, a disciple, will be one with God and Jesus the same way that they are one with each other. Other parts talk about how we have received "The Glory" but explain this verse in a way with the trinity that doesn't have us becoming the trinity with Jesus and God, because of it saying we will be one with them.