Things to Consider Before Attempting to Correct the King James Bible

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Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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You disagree with the answers found in Scripture, i.e. post #300 that details that God allows (actually creates) this (evil/calamity) and shows the usage of the term in other contexts.

It's easy to click disagree, but I would like to see you actually become an objective person and do this rather than see you travel along on subjective emotion: offer some actual exegesis or substance.

You've yet to offer any exegetical analysis or contextual evidence for your "disagreeing" position or anything to help understand the text(s) correctly. This would assist you with those whom you allegedly engage in said debate. If you're doing the same with them that you're doing here you're failing to provide anything substantial let alone offer a solid apologetic.

Have to say it: your entire premise is purely subjective and based upon emotion, not objective truth, that's just one reason you're disingenuous, brother.
When God set creation in motion the Bible states he knew the end from the beginning. Two different views of this are Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinists believe he reaches in and causes actions to take place in men while Armenianism believes he he just foreknew what would happen.

How you view that scripture defines which side of this never ending debate you are on. Keep in mind the creeds were created to define what a Christian must believe and opposing views are heresy. All other Biblical issues are agree to disagree. Thus all of the gospel preaching denominations exist.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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The issue here is bringing into question God's right to be the potter and us the clay. God does what He wants, when He wants, how He wants, and to whom He wants. We have nothing to say about that. If we believe God is evil, then something is wrong with us imo... To say God does evil, is to contradict, and thus deny, the scripture that says He is a Holy God!

When we have the entirety of the Word before us, and then cherry pick a scripture to say God is evil, then we are being carnal and fleshly. The GOD I serve Was not... Is not... Never will be.. "evil", and will never be the author of "evil".

KJV is just another translation, but it's NOT perfect, just as the others are not perfect.
The above is simply a cursory dismissal and complete lack of understanding of the biblical usage of the word evil in its contexts. Nothing but a plea of emotion. It is sadly disingenuous and in fact a straw man, nothing in the texts say God does evil or is evil.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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You are an ludicrous. Without looking up the word on the internet give a reasonable meaning to that list of words. Dung today is still used but the words listed are not part of the current language. Tell us why we should have to use the internet to look up word no longer used when using a modern translation it is not an issue. Also where are the sytars today.

My smartphone is my Bible. I use biblegateway.com on the browser and look up book and chapter. Then I can quickly go between translations. I use mostly NIV, ESV, KJV and AMPC. I sometimes look at other ones as well.
You do realize you're making yourself the final authority on God's word when you choose which words belong and which ones do not. I'd rather leave it, study it, and believe it.

The word dung is still used today?
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Peter was arrested during the days of unleavened bread. Passover had already passed over, no?
Passover is a week long time beginning and ending with an annual Sabbath. One of which is referred to as the high day of Unleavened Bread!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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This is true, and to add to this: Nobody speaks koine greek.

Im not gonna lie that was a shock to me. I think it was sister Angela here who told me that. I asked her if she spoke koine greek and she said (if i remember right) that nobody speaks it anymore, its a dead language.

Now could someone please tell me HOW can we go back to a dead language nobody has spoken for centuries and know what it means and how that language works?
Sounds impossible.
Historical documents in those dead languages with in one example with translations in other languages was the start of deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphics. Also documents coming down through history has shown the slow transition from early Greek to modern Greek. These documents in Greek and other languages helps. Hebrew is no longer a dead language. Israel adopted it to have a common language so all coming there to live would equally be forced to learn a new language. What is added to the Hebrew of today is vowels have been added to writing it. The original texts were only using consonants. Therefore we don't know how to pronounce YHWH in the English letters for the name of God. The meaning is "I AM".
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Can you guess what those verses are talking about? Your Bible is the trumpet!
You picked on one that has hardly any differences so I added John 3:16. Notice the major difference in AMPC by giving the other meanings of "believe in". Explain away now how superior the 400 year old outdated translation is to a modern one. You never bothered to define that list of words that are no longer in English without using internet. Why not!!!

1 Corinthians 14
NIV
7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?

ESV
7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle?

KJV
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

AMPC
7 If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played?
8 And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle?

John 3:16
NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Instead of looking for a different version for Isaiah 45:7 to find a word we like the sound of to replace evil, why not try something novel like context? ;)

Then mix in some 2 Timothy 2:15 for good measure? So, I mean not just context of Isaiah 45:7, but the whole of Scripture on this issue.

We should never adjust Scripture to serve what we think is reasonable, logical, to our liking, or what we deem correct. Scripture should do that for us instead. (Not accusing anyone here of this personally, and we know no one would do that anyway, right?) :LOL::rolleyes:

Hint: Job received the same from the LORD, evil, or call it what you will, calamity, what have you, and his attitude was that we receive this also from the LORD as well as we receive good from the LORD. But look at the context of what he received from God, and how. Note when Job said this, to add clarity to it (to reinforce the fact we receive both good and evil from God) Scripture said of Job that he didn't sin with his lips when he said it, Job 2:10.

Evil did not create itself arbitrarily out of nothing.

Now we are either left to deal with it and face it, or, we can brush it under the rug like many and get all offended about it while denying this reality. So, we can have a truncated view of God, or we can have a biblical view of God. Want to shock yourselves? Read The Existence and Attributes of God or similar title by Stephen Charnock or A. W. Pink.
A very interesting and indepth thought.....The fact that God allowed Satan to be, and then do what was done in the garden with the fall of man, the ensuing results, the wicked made for the day of destruction etc.....tells me that there is a much bigger plan than most, if not all are aware of.....God could have easily taken out the devil and man could have lived in bliss on a perfect world, yet God allowed it to unfold the way it has......I do not buy this view that God did not want robots or people to worship him out of love<<<-because I have never seen this stated in the bible.....seeing how love is of and from God he could have gifted all men with it.....so...why the bigger plan, what is the reason for allowing the devil, fallen angels, demons and the wicked men made for the day of destruction???????

Oh the things I ponder.......🤔😁
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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John 3:16
NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Was Jesus God's only son? Was not Adam a son of God? Was not the angels sons of God?

Jesus was God's only begotten son.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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You do realize you're making yourself the final authority on God's word when you choose which words belong and which ones do not. I'd rather leave it, study it, and believe it.

The word dung is still used today?
Fallacious reply. I am not the arbiter but those who created the translations made the different usage of words.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Do you even understand the problem of getting a good translation of the Greek? First there was the massive issue of putting Hebrew concepts into Greek which was a bad fit, then translating that mess properly into English.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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Was Jesus God's only son? Was not Adam a son of God? Was not the angels sons of God?

Jesus was God's only begotten son.
ROFL
You took the words out of my mouth.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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A very interesting and indepth thought.....The fact that God allowed Satan to be, and then do what was done in the garden with the fall of man, the ensuing results, the wicked made for the day of destruction etc.....tells me that there is a much bigger plan than most, if not all are aware of.....God could have easily taken out the devil and man could have lived in bliss on a perfect world, yet God allowed it to unfold the way it has......I do not buy this view that God did not want robots or people to worship him out of love<<<-because I have never seen this stated in the bible.....seeing how love is of and from God he could have gifted all men with it.....so...why the bigger plan, what is the reason for allowing the devil, fallen angels, demons and the wicked men made for the day of destruction???????

Oh the things I ponder.......🤔😁
I like what R C Sproul said, something like the right and wrong are the very keys to the universe. I'll see if I can find it, but what a brilliant mind God gave that man!

But evil serves a purpose, and God uses it to his glory, and man (professing believers) tries to get God off the hook instead of accepting the fact that God doesn't bow to our understanding and/or logic. It happens on here all the time like God needs to be defended and truths of him need to be denied or mitigated. It's ridiculous.

Man (professing believers) brushes off clear teachings in Scripture and makes feeble attempt to reconcile them with what they deem fair, or how they feel God should be, typically truncating God to their liking. In essence they create God in man's image.

Well, God created evil. We have to deal with it. He also purposefully uses it to his Glory.

We probably ought to allow the glory of God stand as it is, just as it is revealed to us in Scripture. This isn't to say any of us understand it all either, there has always been the so-called "problem of evil." But some of us accept it, and stand in awe, after all he is God.

One guarantee, God will definitely set it all straight on the other side because we will then see clearly.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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davidclark.hearnow.com
Instead of assuming that the KJV is wrong, you also would be much better served by merely looking up the word “evil” in any good English dictionary or like I said earlier, the Bible itself to learn more about his own native language. I have often found that simply learning a bit more about our own language goes a long way in clearing up many an alleged “error” in the King James Bible.

The various meanings of the word EVIL.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English language defines evil in this way.

e·vil

ADJECTIVE:
e·vil·er, e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. CAUSING RUIN, INJURY, OR PAIN; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future MISFORTUNE; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
NOUN:
1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. THAT WHICH CAUSES HARM, MISFORTUNE, OR DESTRUCTION: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. SOMETHING THAT IS A CAUSE OR SOURCE OF SUFFERING, INJURY, OR DESTRUCTION: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

The KJV itself has variously translated the underlying Hebrew word as “evil, wickedness, affliction, mischief, troubles, harm, adversity, sorrow, bad, ill and distress."

The NASB has translated this same word as “evil (136 times), bad, deadly, great, harm, miserable, misfortune, sore, trouble, ugly, wild, disaster and wretched”.

Likewise the NIV translates it as: “evil (190 times), wicked (24 times) bad, wrong, trouble, disaster, malice, wild, ugly, deadly, painful, ruin, ferocious, grievous, terrible, harm, great, sorrows, severe, unjust, vile, worse and wretched.”

You should take note of the significant fact that none of these Bible versions translates this Hebrew word as SIN.

God does in fact create and bring EVIL upon this world, either for punishment, judgment or correction.

In the book of Job we read: “What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? (Job 2:10).
I don't use carnal dictionaries to understand what a word means. Simple as that!
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You do realize you're making yourself the final authority on God's word when you choose which words belong and which ones do not. I'd rather leave it, study it, and believe it.

The word dung is still used today?
The above is utter nonsense and non sequitir. Who made you the final authority on God's word just because a sodomite King threw together a faulty translation of Scripture, of which there have been several versions? You've been hoodwinked by KJVO's into believing it's magical.

Go down to your local bookstore and pick up a nice ESV and read it. You won't go to hell for it, and you'd be better off.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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davidclark.hearnow.com
But evil serves a purpose, and God uses it to his glory, and man (professing believers) tries to get God off the hook instead of accepting the fact that God doesn't bow to our understanding and/or logic. It happens on here all the time like God needs to be defended and truths of him need to be denied or mitigated. It's ridiculous.

Man (professing believers) brushes off clear teachings in Scripture and makes feeble attempt to reconcile them with what they deem fair, or how they feel God should be, typically truncating God to their liking. In essence they create God in man's image.
Funny... when you point one finger at someone... there's 3 others that point back atcha and could be said the same thing about your perspective. I admit I don't understand everything, nor probably never will, but I won't strut around tell everyone that they brush off 'clear teachings' and are making 'feeble attempts' to what they think is 'unfair', because somehow, I have achieved all knowledge and everyone else are liars. This is the general attitude of many I run across.

I am knowledgeable enough to know that there are at least 800 words in the KJV that are outdated and do not mean what we 'think' they mean. The issue is, is that most preachers, teachers, and such, do NOT study these words. They teach every Sunday, or on television that God creates 'evil' and your 'feeble minds' just have to accept it. Well I don't accept it. God did not, nor will He ever do or create evil. If that is a 'feeble mind', then I'll be glad to be the first one to admit I have one. I know my Lord and Savior, and 'evil' is not part of His character, and never will be.

How shall they understand unless someone preaches... That's the problem again. Pastors go by an outdated bible that was not even translated from one original but only from translations of others, and then teach these false ideas because they think the word means what it means. Little things creep into the believers minds, because the believers are TRUSTING these preachers to do their jobs. Unfortunately they end up telling someone else what they heard; thus, the blind leading the blind begins.

I've said many times the KJV is okay, the ESV is okay, the AMP is okay, the TLV is okay... but just remember, there are errors in ALL of them; as man can err. Don't listen to anyone else and take it to heart. Study yourselves to see if what you are being told is scripture. Doesn't matter who is preachin atcha. I don't say this to those that 'know it all', or to those that have it 'all figured out', but to those that are on the side lines, searching the truth. Just b/c someone 'appears' knowledgeable as well, doesn't mean they know anything either. We have almost unlimited access to almost everything we need to be "berean" Christians; use that resource.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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davidclark.hearnow.com
Have to say it: your entire premise is purely subjective and based upon emotion, not objective truth, that's just one reason you're disingenuous, brother.
God does not create, nor does evil... EVER! That is not 'emotion' but FACT! And u're attacks on my character have no bearing on the conversations. Nugatory, effrontery of minuscule words don't bother me as I know who I am in Christ and what the Word says about His character... And evil is not in it.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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God does not create, nor does evil... EVER! That is not 'emotion' but FACT! And u're attacks on my character have no bearing on the conversations. Nugatory, effrontery of minuscule words don't bother me as I know who I am in Christ and what the Word says about His character... And evil is not in it.
:):rolleyes:

You're proving my point, pure emotion right there ^^^^^^^ and showing your character, all I've done is describe it.

On your part there is nothing objective, it is purely subjective ranting.

Scripture is clear in Isaiah 45:7 and shows you to be incorrect. What does it say again? He creates what? Evil? Calamity? He most certainly does! It didn't happen arbitrarily my friend.

Let's look at other factors: Nothing from you. No exegesis, no other Scripture, not an once of an apologetic treatment. Nada. Just a plain old hissy fit of emotion. Yelling and stamping your feet proves nothing.

If you want to be taken seriously, address the Scriptures I've provided, and the arguments in them. Merely clicking disagree means nothing since you cannot come back with a Scriptural reason as to why.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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:):rolleyes:

You're proving my point, pure emotion right there ^^^^^^^ and showing your character, all I've done is describe it.

On your part there is nothing objective, it is purely subjective ranting.

Scripture is clear in Isaiah 45:7 and shows you to be incorrect. What does it say again? He creates what? Evil? Calamity? He most certainly does! It didn't happen arbitrarily my friend.

Let's look at other factors: Nothing from you. No exegesis, no other Scripture, not an once of an apologetic treatment. Nada. Just a plain old hissy fit of emotion. Yelling and stamping your feet proves nothing.

If you want to be taken seriously, address the Scriptures I've provided, and the arguments in them. Merely clicking disagree means nothing since you cannot come back with a Scriptural reason as to why.
So we have a severe anomaly........logically let us deduce...

a. God did not create evil

This allows for two possible conclusions

a. Evil came about on it's own, which means that it was outside the perview and power of God

b. God is not in control of his creation

c. Logically deduced God is not all powerful and or all knowing because if the above is true then he had no inkling that evil was beyond his power to control, beyond his perview, and beyond his ability to know or understand All things....

Are these logical deductions valid and if so....then the whole bible falls apart because it portrays God as All powerful, All Knowing and over his whole creation and in charge of all things....

NOTE....I am not saying the above....just logically deducing the facts based upon EVIL coming into being on it's own and or already being in existence.....

??????????????
 
Dec 28, 2016
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So we have a severe anomaly........logically let us deduce...

a. God did not create evil

This allows for two possible conclusions

a. Evil came about on it's own, which means that it was outside the perview and power of God

b. God is not in control of his creation

c. Logically deduced God is not all powerful and or all knowing because if the above is true then he had no inkling that evil was beyond his power to control, beyond his perview, and beyond his ability to know or understand All things....

Are these logical deductions valid and if so....then the whole bible falls apart because it portrays God as All powerful, All Knowing and over his whole creation and in charge of all things....

NOTE....I am not saying the above....just logically deducing the facts based upon EVIL coming into being on it's own and or already being in existence.....

??????????????
Yep, which is why people come up with errant theologies to try and get God off the hook!

Scripture is clear, and God has a purpose in evil.