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Some people just like to be a serious Susan all the time.. if you can't learn to take a joke, then the bible forum will eat you alive.. I assure you, Straightshot, tourist was only kidding when he said he'd pour you a drink..
Life is too short to be 100% serious 24/7/365..now back to your scheduled programming..carry on.. lol
J
Briefly, had to run and juggling, but to elaborate, there are wicked people still present in the millennium, who surely would profane the name of the Lord, His rule, willing rebellion at the end of the millennium, speaking for itself. Where is Biblical proof there is no sin in even Israel to rule with a rod of iron, during the millennium? Ezekiel ends with God's name profaned no more. This can in no way put these battle results being pre or mid tribulation, profanity ending before Armageddon, and tribulation Israel will be in the worst shape imaginable, at the time of Armageddon, not by any conceivable stretch dwelling in any safety or peace, rather in shambles. As to Gog and Magog being all nations, as Armageddon indicates, this is nowhere in the text of Ezekiel, just a bunch of nations, a coalition with many nations absent. For instance, I'd ask Bill Salus and company, with their "Psalm 83 war" (that doesn't exist in Psalm 83), then the Ezekiel war, why not that greater Israel, with Islam and the border neighbors long history past, at the end of the millennium? Again, as to the weapons that burn, at the end of the millennium, after a 1,000 weapons ban, primitive weapons would be "all she wrote" to quickly assemble, the weapons of our day long gone, illegal, swords to plowshares. "Enquiring minds want to know." What say ye?
My comments:
Bill Salus and David Reagan are most definitely wrong about a pre-tribulation war they claim supported by Psalms 83
Their proposed war is not even within the context of the coming 70 week decreed for Israel .... even the post 1948 wars are not recorded in any prophecy
Do these guys know that they are rigging the prophecies for the purpose of selling books and for clinging to the bankrupt ideas of the reformers and re-constructionists related to an "antichrist" led Euro-centric revived Roman Empire
Quite frankly, I don't think so ..... they just cannot give up the dogma because they fear the loss of their current following by admitting they have been wrong all along
These same Bible teachers also error with Ezekiel 38; 38 by insisting that "gog" is a Russian and not Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions .... just another left foot in the mix which does not fit the scope of the prophetic visions at all
Neither do either of them understand who Satan's beast is and the significance of this satanic mimic who has been around for eons and eons .... and rules over the 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms in the prophetic visions for Satan
Psalms 83 is in fact to be read in conjunction with Ezekiel 38 .... both speak of Armageddon .... the inner core of Israel's enemies, and the further expansion of the same confederation involved in the attack upon Israel at the Middle of the 70th week decreed
These two passage of scriptures are not two different conflicts .... one just before the beginning of the 70th week and the other at the end of it
Salus goes on to say that the psalms 83 war will grant to Israel the defeat of the Islam as the dominant religion, and the expansion to the Euphrates River promised by the Lord
He is doubly wrong about this matter .... Islam will remain in the same position and the land expansion to Israel will not come until after the Armageddon war at the ending of the 70th week and in conjunction with the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth
Salus makes his false case in order to stick to his reformation exegesis which tells of the Euro-Roman idea where the "antichrist" will be hatched and to refute those who see an Islamic centered Caliph rising in the prophecies
Bill Salus and David Reagan are most definitely wrong about a pre-tribulation war they claim supported by Psalms 83
Their proposed war is not even within the context of the coming 70 week decreed for Israel .... even the post 1948 wars are not recorded in any prophecy
Do these guys know that they are rigging the prophecies for the purpose of selling books and for clinging to the bankrupt ideas of the reformers and re-constructionists related to an "antichrist" led Euro-centric revived Roman Empire
Quite frankly, I don't think so ..... they just cannot give up the dogma because they fear the loss of their current following by admitting they have been wrong all along
These same Bible teachers also error with Ezekiel 38; 38 by insisting that "gog" is a Russian and not Satan's beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions .... just another left foot in the mix which does not fit the scope of the prophetic visions at all
Neither do either of them understand who Satan's beast is and the significance of this satanic mimic who has been around for eons and eons .... and rules over the 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms in the prophetic visions for Satan
Psalms 83 is in fact to be read in conjunction with Ezekiel 38 .... both speak of Armageddon .... the inner core of Israel's enemies, and the further expansion of the same confederation involved in the attack upon Israel at the Middle of the 70th week decreed
These two passage of scriptures are not two different conflicts .... one just before the beginning of the 70th week and the other at the end of it
Salus goes on to say that the psalms 83 war will grant to Israel the defeat of the Islam as the dominant religion, and the expansion to the Euphrates River promised by the Lord
He is doubly wrong about this matter .... Islam will remain in the same position and the land expansion to Israel will not come until after the Armageddon war at the ending of the 70th week and in conjunction with the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth
Salus makes his false case in order to stick to his reformation exegesis which tells of the Euro-Roman idea where the "antichrist" will be hatched and to refute those who see an Islamic centered Caliph rising in the prophecies
"Actually, no it's the truth. Too much seriousness in here will devour you unless you develop a sense of humor.. and there's no reason to get rude, either.. You just called Jesus a joke"
Your twisted response tells of your own lack of serious attention paid toward the Lord's Word
I would suggest to you that your own salvation is a serious matter .... one between life, or death
Loose discussion about these things is not a good idea .... it sends the wrong message to others
Your twisted response tells of your own lack of serious attention paid toward the Lord's Word
I would suggest to you that your own salvation is a serious matter .... one between life, or death
Loose discussion about these things is not a good idea .... it sends the wrong message to others
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And How do you know that I do not enjoy preaching and teaching the Lord's Word? .... I love it
Is what I do well accepted in today's world ..... far from it
People must told what they need to hear about the gospel of Jesus Christ .... and not what they want to hear
And there is no time for fools play in the process .... otherwise they will not take one seriously
Biblical Christianity is not an accepted and popular topic
So if you are going to joke around .... intentionally, or unintentionally .... it would best for you to refrain from playing around with a serious Bible topic on a public "Christian" message board
Is what I do well accepted in today's world ..... far from it
People must told what they need to hear about the gospel of Jesus Christ .... and not what they want to hear
And there is no time for fools play in the process .... otherwise they will not take one seriously
Biblical Christianity is not an accepted and popular topic
So if you are going to joke around .... intentionally, or unintentionally .... it would best for you to refrain from playing around with a serious Bible topic on a public "Christian" message board
E
what say me?
1. The battle in revelation is the final battle, human history as we know it will cease to exist, What follows is the final judgment, There will be no need of nations knowning God is God. the purpose is removed, because there will be no more nations, or anyone else saved after this.
2. Rev says Gog will be destroyed by fire from heaven in one swoop (immediate) Ez says it will take awhile. An earthquake, They will fight each other because of that earthquake, God will also bring heavy rain, Great hailstones, fire and brinstone, After which the people will go use their weapons to make fire, meaning they will not need to cut down trees to have firewood. After which, they will be buried, and after which people will have to walk around their burial sight because it will become and obstruction, It will take over 7 months to bury them all, The birds will be filled with their flesh. THEN, Isreal is retored to the land. Thus is when Israel repents.
a far cry from the scene in revelation.
1. The battle in revelation is the final battle, human history as we know it will cease to exist, What follows is the final judgment, There will be no need of nations knowning God is God. the purpose is removed, because there will be no more nations, or anyone else saved after this.
2. Rev says Gog will be destroyed by fire from heaven in one swoop (immediate) Ez says it will take awhile. An earthquake, They will fight each other because of that earthquake, God will also bring heavy rain, Great hailstones, fire and brinstone, After which the people will go use their weapons to make fire, meaning they will not need to cut down trees to have firewood. After which, they will be buried, and after which people will have to walk around their burial sight because it will become and obstruction, It will take over 7 months to bury them all, The birds will be filled with their flesh. THEN, Isreal is retored to the land. Thus is when Israel repents.
a far cry from the scene in revelation.
J
Can't find the "one swoop" with a scoop in Revelation. Revelation doesn't provide such details, just a mention. There is absolutely no mention of the period of time between Gog and Magog and eternity, the time it takes for the Great White Throne. There are still peoples outside the New Jerusalem in eternity, people who could be pretty good at building a fire and burying corpses, nations that, "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."
There's nothing expressed or implied, no basis for one sentence following another meaning there's nothing in-between or nothing is left unsaid, like the 2,000 year gap in Daniel's prophecy of weeks. Where's the scripture? Like that elderly lady in the burger commercials way back, "Where's the beef?"
(Also, is there not a principle of scripture interpreting scripture as to reference, mention in Ezekiel, then also in Revelation?)
There's nothing expressed or implied, no basis for one sentence following another meaning there's nothing in-between or nothing is left unsaid, like the 2,000 year gap in Daniel's prophecy of weeks. Where's the scripture? Like that elderly lady in the burger commercials way back, "Where's the beef?"
(Also, is there not a principle of scripture interpreting scripture as to reference, mention in Ezekiel, then also in Revelation?)
Exactly the scene in Revelation ..... the same as Ezekiel 38; 39
[Revelation 14;14-21; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]
The the Lord will set his millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth and restore it to Israel
.... and after the 1000 years will come another human rebellion against Him
He will quickly put down the rebellion
Then He will judge all of the unbelieving human spirits from the beginning of human creation and all will be sent to His lake of fire .... and then will come His perfect eternal kingdom which will last forever
This is the exact sequence of events given in Revelation 19; 20; 21
Ezekiel gives a view of the specific battle of Armageddon which will occur just before He sets up His millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth .... these will need his salvation just as we do today .... but many of them will turn against Him
[Revelation 14;14-21; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]
The the Lord will set his millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth and restore it to Israel
.... and after the 1000 years will come another human rebellion against Him
He will quickly put down the rebellion
Then He will judge all of the unbelieving human spirits from the beginning of human creation and all will be sent to His lake of fire .... and then will come His perfect eternal kingdom which will last forever
This is the exact sequence of events given in Revelation 19; 20; 21
Ezekiel gives a view of the specific battle of Armageddon which will occur just before He sets up His millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth .... these will need his salvation just as we do today .... but many of them will turn against Him
E
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[SUP][b][/SUP] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[h=3]The Great White Throne Judgment[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP] THEN I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God
Call me stupid, But seems prety clear to me, This gog and megog is after the 1000 years are up. They are destroyed by fire from heaven in one clean sweep. THEN (a very important word) comes the great white throne.
[h=3]The Great White Throne Judgment[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP] THEN I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God
Call me stupid, But seems prety clear to me, This gog and megog is after the 1000 years are up. They are destroyed by fire from heaven in one clean sweep. THEN (a very important word) comes the great white throne.
"Oh! And where is Gog and Magog in Daniel, please?"
Why don't you look for yourself .... maybe the Lord will show you .... maybe He will not
Hint: Satan [gog], his beast in the little horn, and their human followers [magog] are all found in the following passages of scripture [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45: 12:7]
And there are many other references found in the other prophets' visions .... and with in glaring evidence in Revelation's unfolding
Remember this [Ezekiel 38:17] .... are you the one Satan? ..... the Lord's answer .... you are
Why don't you look for yourself .... maybe the Lord will show you .... maybe He will not
Hint: Satan [gog], his beast in the little horn, and their human followers [magog] are all found in the following passages of scripture [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45: 12:7]
And there are many other references found in the other prophets' visions .... and with in glaring evidence in Revelation's unfolding
Remember this [Ezekiel 38:17] .... are you the one Satan? ..... the Lord's answer .... you are
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J
I wouldn't call you stupid! What there is in Revelation are a few sentences, covering events that certainly have other details, and I don't see a contradiction between this micro-Cliff Notes in Revelation, for the whole incident laid out in Ezekiel. In other words, don't see the mutual exclusivity, just because Revelation is sparse on details. Like fire from God: it's involved in Ezekiel, also. As for the THEN you mention, John is moving on to what he saw next, can't see why this is saying there was nothing John wasn't shown. We could obviously say John could not have covered the entirity of the incident and incidences in a few sentences, which take a considerable, indeterminate time not given in Revelation. I think, as to this thread, the OP points, having them torn down is the crux, which remains undone, all I've ever seen out there, mainly places other than CC thus far, are people who have to resort to symbols or suppositions, and, most importantly, that the Bible doesn't say what it says. Or an attitude, "We just won't talk about those verses," that is, verses that gore their ox. Of course, reject that which is literal intent in the Bible, get to plain words, in perfect context, don't mean what they mean, and one can make the Bible anything they want, and they do, but this never gets to truth.
E
ok. one more..lol
In ez, Isreal repents at the end, and is restored, as they receive their messiah. The nations (and a few people in here who think God no longer sees Israel as a chosen nation and is not bound to keep his promise in land) will also know that Israel is Gods chosen, as he, well here, let me let God speak himself.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. [SUP]24 [/SUP]According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’
Now in revelations, this happens 1000 years before that war.
In ez, Isreal repents at the end, and is restored, as they receive their messiah. The nations (and a few people in here who think God no longer sees Israel as a chosen nation and is not bound to keep his promise in land) will also know that Israel is Gods chosen, as he, well here, let me let God speak himself.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. [SUP]24 [/SUP]According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’
Now in revelations, this happens 1000 years before that war.
J
Though the OP objections are what I was looking for of the problem, the entirety of the Ezekiel 39 setting is problematic, one of the peripheral objections, but you've much hit a nerve that must belong in the discussion. There seems to be allusion to an ancient captivity, the Babylonian captivity, and then another captivity restoral situation, where, in both instances, the Lord is showing His mercy. It almost seems to me a mini preaching on sin of Israel being the problem, how this led to captivity, but not that Israel was Godless or forsaken, as the heathen were gloating over and thinking. God punishes sin, and gloriously restores the humble in His mercy, and He has also shown the heathen He's not beyond doing this to Israel, is not a respecter of persons. There seems a wide historical context in the whole of the statements, "Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob..." delving into a repeat captivity allusion, a "two captivity" phenomenon that must delve into a wide swatch of history.
Since, to my relish, you are making things difficult, hurling fiery darts of Revelation at Ezekiel, consider this,
Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This, we all can agree, is after any Gog and Magog, eternity. It is at this point "God Himself" is with his people, at the end of Ezekiel 39, "Neither will I hide my face any more from them..."
So, here we have another bottom line, finally "God Himself" present, both places in scripture. Then there's the OP, how, if Ezekiel is Armageddon, there's no conceivable way Israel could be characterized in a state of dwelling safely, through the whole of, nor at the close of the Great Tribulation. (We must also remember Armageddon is about the world armies and Antichrist fighting Christ, not God and Magog coveting and coming to take spoil of Israel, as in Ezekiel. Israel would be hugely prosperous at the end of the millennium, no?)
Bottom line, I don't know where everything fits, only those aspects that must be, as in the OP. The Ezekiel temple chapters are also a lot of "fun" to wrap your mind around, if you've never tried that, Ezekiel the most difficult book in the Bible, hands down, in my experience. All the commentaries also wrestle with it and find little agreement, on much.
I have no idea why you'd think anybody would call you stupid?! You're even becoming a pain... but I do love that, struggle with certain issues such as you mention, yet just a born glutton for punishment. LOL!
Since, to my relish, you are making things difficult, hurling fiery darts of Revelation at Ezekiel, consider this,
Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This, we all can agree, is after any Gog and Magog, eternity. It is at this point "God Himself" is with his people, at the end of Ezekiel 39, "Neither will I hide my face any more from them..."
So, here we have another bottom line, finally "God Himself" present, both places in scripture. Then there's the OP, how, if Ezekiel is Armageddon, there's no conceivable way Israel could be characterized in a state of dwelling safely, through the whole of, nor at the close of the Great Tribulation. (We must also remember Armageddon is about the world armies and Antichrist fighting Christ, not God and Magog coveting and coming to take spoil of Israel, as in Ezekiel. Israel would be hugely prosperous at the end of the millennium, no?)
Bottom line, I don't know where everything fits, only those aspects that must be, as in the OP. The Ezekiel temple chapters are also a lot of "fun" to wrap your mind around, if you've never tried that, Ezekiel the most difficult book in the Bible, hands down, in my experience. All the commentaries also wrestle with it and find little agreement, on much.
I have no idea why you'd think anybody would call you stupid?! You're even becoming a pain... but I do love that, struggle with certain issues such as you mention, yet just a born glutton for punishment. LOL!
J
And also no, no, no, no, no! I keep having to correct the same typo, typing God for Gog, missed this one. I think the 'ol fingers have typed God so very many times, they'll do this 75% of the time, trying to type Gog. This no matter what my brain is doing, and this is not to invite any comments from the peanut gallery on that score...
E
aww but you have too look at another passage in revelation and daniel, and even What Christ said.
1. the abomination which makes desolate. Spoke of by Daniel, Warned of by Christ,
2. As Christ said, run to the hills, As daniel and revelation says, God will protect them (the roman hourde powered by satan can not touch them, so he goes after her offspring)
so while I agree Israel is not fully restored in her land before Ez 38, She is protected.
again, it is at the end of Ez 39 that she is fully restored. which would be the beginning of the 1000 years
1. the abomination which makes desolate. Spoke of by Daniel, Warned of by Christ,
2. As Christ said, run to the hills, As daniel and revelation says, God will protect them (the roman hourde powered by satan can not touch them, so he goes after her offspring)
so while I agree Israel is not fully restored in her land before Ez 38, She is protected.
again, it is at the end of Ez 39 that she is fully restored. which would be the beginning of the 1000 years