Those that God gave Christ

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cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
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and faith comes from hearing the word. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

But the word of God cannot grow in your heart,
unless you seek to have faith which is
a gift from above.

Look at the parable of the sower.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
7,489
73
48
27
and faith comes from hearing the word. Romans 10:17 (KJV)

But the word of God cannot grow in your heart,
unless you seek to have faith which is
a gift from above.

Look at the parable of the sower.
I think I can agree with that.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
Seriously. If it WAS truly up to God we'd all be in trouble.
Is that your argument?


Personally, I don't have anything against anything "being up to God". He is what he is.
 
F

Forest

Guest
Well said.

Forest, the wide gate leads to destruction not eternal life correct? Therefore those who go in there are not His elect right?
Wrong, There are many more of God's elect who do not understand the truth than God's elect that do understand.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
Natural man can want to know God.
Everything I read in the bible says otherwise.


Will/Choosing (Enslaved)

  • John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
  • 2 Peter 2:19 - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
  • Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
  • Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
  • Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed... For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
  • Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
  • 2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
c.f. Isaiah 42:6-7; Psalm 51:12; John 8:31-32,36; 2 Corinthians 3:17
Affections/Desires (Perverted)

  • Romans 1:24-27 - Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
  • Ephesians 2:3 - we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
  • Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
  • John 3:19 - And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
  • John 8:44 - "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires."
c.f. Genesis 3:16; Psalm 4:2, 52:3-4 140:8; Proverbs 10:23; 2 Timothy 3:2-4; 2 Peter 2:13
et al (Utter Ruin)

  • Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
  • Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.
  • Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?

  • Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
  • 1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes wickedness.'"
  • Matthew 7:18 - "A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit." (c.f. Luke 6:43)
  • Matthew 12:34-35 - "How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil."
  • Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
  • Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... from youth.
  • Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
c.f. Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; John 15:5; Romans 14:23; Philippians 1:11; 1 John 5:18-19
Total Depravity Verse List Travis Carden .com <--- just using this because it's organized for me already
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
We can be thankful that IT IS up to God, so that some actually will be saved.

If God in His mercy didn't intervene this way then all would be justly condemned.

Noone deserves ANYTHING else than judgment from God. Everything else is mercy and grace.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
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Wrong, There are many more of God's elect who do not understand the truth than God's elect that do understand.
Where is your scripture for this claim? And what precisely do you mean with not understanding the truth?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
Ignatius of Antioch- Died between 98 and 110 AD. Ignatius was likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John and was martyred (Ignatius was condemned to fight wild beasts in the Coliseum) in Rome. Seven of his letters have survived to this day; he is generally considered to be one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers):


  • &#8226; If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.

I don't see how this is supposed to be an argument against Calvinism. Care to clarify? Also, when you cite information from somewhere else, it's a good idea make note of the source.

More importantly, I'm going to take the bible over any church leader.

I can quote a church leader, too.


TOTAL DEPRAVITY

Barnabas (A.D. 70): "Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak."

Ignatius (A.D. 110): "They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual...Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief."

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): "Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners...No good thing dwells in us...For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit...Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God...He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life...Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold...Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly."

Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): "The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace."

Origen: "Our free will...or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner."

Eusebius (A.D. 330): "The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed."

Augustine (A.D. 370): "If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?...O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power...Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ...What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us...Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God's; how can they find it, I know not."


UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION

Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): "Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself...Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness...There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord...Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect..."

Barnabas (A.D. 70): "We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation."

Ignatius: "To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father..."

Justin Martyr: "In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation."

Irenaeus (A.D. 198): "God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life...Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever."

Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): "Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not [an earthly] place, but the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church...If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election...You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood."

Cyprian (A.D. 250): "This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach."

Ambrose Of Milan (A.D. 380): "In predestination the Church of God has always existed."

Augustine (A.D. 380): "Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, 'You did not choose Me, but I chose you' (John 15:16)."


LIMITED ATONEMENT

Barnabas (A.D. 70): "[Christ speaking] I see that I shall thus offer My flesh for the sins of the new people."

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): "He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are [actually] purified from all iniquity...As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of carious forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross."

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): "He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men...Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary...promising to give His life a ransom, in the room of, many."

Tertullian (A.D. 200): "Christ died for the salvation of His people...for the church."

Cyprian (A.D. 250): "All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved...Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape...He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood...Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ."

Lactantius (A.D. 320): "He was to suffer and be slain for the salvation of many people...who having suffered death for us, hath made us heirs of the everlasting kingdom, having abdicated and disinherited the people of the Jews...He stretched out His hands in the passion and measured the world, that He might at the very time show that a large people, gathered out of all languages and tribes, should come under His wings, and receive the most great and sublime sign."

Eusebius (A.D. 330): "To what 'us' does he refer, unless to them that beleive in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ's coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him."

Julius (A.D. 350): "The Son of God, by the pouring out of His precious blood, redeemed His set apart ones; they are delivered by the blood of Christ."

Hilarion (A.D. 363): "He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father."

Ambrose (A.D. 380): "Before the foundation of the world, it was God's will that Christ should suffer for our salvation...Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death?"

Pacian (A.D. 380): "Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price."

Epiphanius (A.D. 390): "If you are redeemed...If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou are not the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood...He gave His life for His own sheep."

Jerome (A.D. 390): "Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers...Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant...All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood...Christ came to redeem Zion with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one is Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church...He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe."

Remigius (A.D. 850): "Since only the elect are saved, it may be accepted that Christ did not come to save all and did not die on the cross for all."

Anselm: "If you die in unbelief, Christ did not die for you."


IRRESISTBLE GRACE

Barnabas (A.D. 70): "God gives repentance to us, introducing us into the incorruptible temple."

Ignatius: "Pray for them, if so by they may repent, which is very difficult; but Jesus Christ, our true life, has the power of this."

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): "Having sometime before convinced us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save them which otherwise were impossible to be saved...Free will has destroyed us; we are sold into sin."

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): "Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation...Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of the possessor, according to the mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word; that is, by Christ; that many may experimentally learn that not of himself, but by the gift of God, he receives immortality."

Tertullian (A.D. 200): "Do you think, O men, that we should ever have been able to have understood these things in the Scriptures unless by the will of Him that wills all things, we had received grace to understand them?...But by this it is plain, that [faith] is not given to thee by God, because thou dost not ascribe it to Him alone."

Cyprian (A.D. 250): "Whatsoever is grateful is to be ascribed not to man's power, but to God's gift. It is God's, I say, all is God's that we can do. Yea, that in nothing must we glory, since nothing is ours."

Arnobius (A.D. 303): "You place the salvation of your souls in yourselves, and trust that you may be made gods by your inward endeavor, yet it is not our own power to reach things above."

Lactantius (A.D. 320): "The vistory lies in the will of God, not in thine own. To overcome is not in our power."

Athanasius (A.D. 350): "To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirit's who is in us, and abides in us."

Jerome (A.D. 390): "This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he can have, is not his own, but the Lord's who gives it...See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us...When [Jesus] says, 'No man can come to Me,' He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors...Where is the proud boasting of free will?...We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will?"

Augustine (A.D. 370): "Faith itself is to be attributed to God...Faith is made a gift. These men, however, attribute faith to free will, so grace is rendered to faith not as a gratuitous gift, but as a debt...They must cease from saying this."


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): "It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. He has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His?"

Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): "Such a soul [of a Christian] shall never at any time be separated from God...Faith, I say, is something divine, which cannot be pulled asunder by any other worldly friendship, nor be dissolved by present fear."

Tertullian: "God forbid that we should believe that the soul of any saint should be drawn out by the devil...For what is of God is never extinguished."

Augustine: "Of these believers no one perishes, because they were all elected. And they were elected because they were called according to the purpose--the purpose, however, not their own, but God's...Obedience then is God's gift...To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God."
Source: Michael Horton, Putting Amazing Back into Grace (Grand Rapids, MI Baker, 2002), Appendix.
http://www.warrantedfaith.org/theology/calvinism/485-calvinism-declared-by-the-church-fathers <--- click

God did not cause Adam to disobey Him; otherwise man wouldn&#8217;t have been created in God&#8217;s image.
Don't confuse Calvinism with the Sovereignty of God. I believe both. Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve were not Totally Depraved, however, the LIP in TULIP would have still applied. Because I believe God is fully Sovereign, and not just partially sovereign over some things, I believe that disobedience is ordained, but not caused by God if that makes sense.

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/does-god-emauthorem-sin <--- john piper has a good short article talking about that.

The Bible tells us that God hates sin and that sin can&#8217;t enter heaven.
The garden of eden wasn't in heaven, if that's your point.

Solomon wrote
  • This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes. Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV
That's actually a total depravity verse. It demonstrates that man is basically bad.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fru_6LQgVZc[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiRpUtVByxU[/video]
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
Can the future be changed?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
Don't confuse Calvinism with the Sovereignty of God. I believe both. Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve were not Totally Depraved, however, the LIP in TULIP would have still applied. Because I believe God is fully Sovereign, and not just partially sovereign over some things, I believe that disobedience is ordained, but not caused by God if that makes sense.

What this should have said was that the ULIP in TULIP would still have applied. Adam and Eve could not have been Totally Depraved, as there was no Original Sin yet.
 
F

Forest

Guest
Romans 11:15-26

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
There is a nation of Israel and there is Israel which is Jocob, all of the elect. God changed Jacob's name to Israel, Israel in these scriptures are all of the elect. The word Israel is used in many of the scriptures as God's elect.
 
F

Forest

Guest
So that its what you do? Do you decide who is included in the word "all"?

Now where have I heard this before?....
If you use the "all" in this scripture to mean all mankind, you will run into contradicting scriptures.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
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Can the future be changed?
The answer is a big....NO

What is the use of a prophecy
if it can be changed?

Changing the future is like
God changing His mind and He
certainly won't change His
mind if He already decided
on something.
 
F

Forest

Guest
Romans 1:8-23 (NASB)

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ [g]for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 9 For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10 always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. 11 For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be [h]established; 12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine. 13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am [i]under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15 So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [j]from faith to faith; as it is written, “[k]BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [o]crawling creatures.
I don't know if you refer to the Greek translators, but the word "salvation" in Greek means "a deliverance. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to deliverances we receive here in this world. The inspired scriptures are preserved to instruct God's people as to how they should live their lives here in this world. There is no plan of eternal salvation in the scriptures other than God's plan to choose a people before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, and give them to Christ to pay for their sins and redeem them back to him, John 6:37-40, and God's plan for saving his elect was accomplished by Christ on the cross, and his plan for eternally saving the elect was finished on the cross, thats why Jesus, while on the cross, said "it is finished", meaning that he had finished the work that his Father sent him to do. The only way that anyone has been saved is by the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross.
 
F

Forest

Guest
Exactly. The Jews and Gentiles don't want to seek God because of sin in their deceitful hearts. Both are guilty and worthy of Divine justice (Romans 3:11-20). Unless they have the justification of their sins through Jesus Christ by faith (Romans 3:22-26).

Can the natural man, dead in trespasses and sins, have faith by his own will? (Ephesians 2:5-8)
We are justified for eternal salvation by Christ's faith and not our own faith, Gal 2:16. We come into contact with our spiritual faith after we have been born of the Spirit (the new birth) because faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Our spiritual faith can bring about many deliverances (salvations) here in this world, but our faith plays no part in our eternal salvation.
 
F

Forest

Guest
Seriously. If it WAS truly up to God we'd all be in trouble.
We all are in trouble but for the grace and mercy of a loving God. Man, without the imputed righteousness of Christ, is totally depraved without any righteousness of his own.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
7,489
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What's imputed mean? It sounds like an awful word but the way people use it, it's not...
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
Didn't slaves back during the Civil War escape?
Yes, there were slaves even before the Civil War, and all throughout human history who have escaped the clutches of their slave-masters.