Those that God gave Christ

[shroom2]

CONCLUSION: freewill is an allusion when it comes to spirituality. MAKE SENSE in a way.

Bad conclusion, and makes no sense.

Faith is simple trust, not a magical gift from God. Anyone can be curious about God. If they're curious enough, they will seek ways to learn.

Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If free will is an illusion, what is the point of witnessing? Why did Peter tell everyone in Acts 2:38 to repent? He told them to -change-. People can change their minds.

God wants all men to be saved. People decide whether they will believe or not.

2 Cor 5:20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[rafaelsald]

Obrigado, agora você faz o meu dia.

Dit is niks.

 

[cronjecj]

shroom

faith comes by hearing the word and in order for the word to take root in our hearts depends where God sows them,

look at the parable of the sower.

only those which had taken root are the elect.

Faith is a gift of God, the natural man does not seek God.

 

[Forest]

Sim, Eu concordo totalmente com você. Mas, aonde que eu disse que somos salvos ou justificados pelas obras?

Yes, I totally agree with you. But, where did I say that we are saved or justified by works?

You had quoted Rom 1:16 and I was trying to tell you that the gospel is not the cause of our eternal salvation. There is a salvation (deliverance) in understanding the gospel because it will deliver us from depending upon our works to save us eternally, but understanding the gospel will not save us eternally. God gets full credit for our eternal salvation.

 

[rafaelsald]

Bad conclusion, and makes no sense.

Faith is simple trust, not a magical gift from God. you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God
Ephesians 2:8

Anyone can be curious about God. If they're curious enough, they will seek ways to learn.




you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 14:2-3

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:11-12

 

[shroom2]

shroom

faith comes by hearing the word and in order for the word to take root in our hearts depends where God sows them,

look at the parable of the sower.

only those which had taken root are the elect.

Faith is a gift of God, the natural man does not seek God.

The parable of the sower describes different ways people receive the Word of God. God does not "predestine" some as good soil, rocky soil, etc. It's just the way people are. He want's ALL people to be "good soil".

 

[Forest]

Ja, ek stem heeltamal saam met jou, maar, waar het ek gese dat ons gered of geregtig is met werke?

Just translating what you said into my native

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Ephesians 2:8-9 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Romans 3:28 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Romans 4:2 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about - but not before God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]James 2:24 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. [/FONT]

i would say works (obeying the commandments) is the result of faith.

Peace.

Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 3:28, in both of these scriptures the faith spoken of is Christ's faith and not our faith, Gal 2:16.

 

[shroom2]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: {it is} the gift of God
Ephesians 2:8

Exactly. It is by the grace of God that we receive the gift of salvation through faith. We cannot earn it. All we have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
Psalm 14:2-3

Yep. All men are sinners.

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:11-12

Keep reading...
20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[cronjecj]

The parable of the sower describes different ways people receive the Word of God. God does not "predestine" some as good soil, rocky soil, etc. It's just the way people are. He want's ALL people to be "good soil".

That's not what Jude 4 says.

 

[rafaelsald]

You had quoted Rom 1:16 and I was trying to tell you that the gospel is not the cause of our eternal salvation. There is a salvation (deliverance) in understanding the gospel because it will deliver us from depending upon our works to save us eternally, but understanding the gospel will not save us eternally. God gets full credit for our eternal salvation.

I agree with you. The preaching of the Gospel isn't the cause of our eternal salvation, but is a way by which the Holy Spirit saves His elect.

 

[Forest]

He will not predestine someone because He knew that person would choose Him. That would never happen because the spiritual will of man is depraved. Therefore, no one would seek God to be saved, and so no one would be predestined to salvation.

Here in Brazil, many Arminian Baptists use that logic to say that they believe in predestination. But biblically there is a theological paradox. Unless you don't believe in Total Depravity.

Eph 1:5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. The elect are adopted children of God and Jesus paid the price for that adoption on the cross. The final phase of the adoption, at least in my view, is when he brings us home. An adopted child has no part in choosing his father. The father does all of the choosing. Predestination refers only to eternal life. The choices we make in life are not predestinated, but they are influienced either by the Spirit or by the flesh. The warfare Paul speaks of. There are some in this world that believe that everything we do is predestinated, but that is a false belief, they are called "absoluters".

 

[shroom2]

That's not what Jude 4 says.

4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

They were "written of before", not predestined. The bible prophesies of evil men. It does not say God made them that way.

Are you falling for Calvinism too, cronjecj?

 

[rafaelsald]

Eph 1:5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. The elect are adopted children of God and Jesus paid the price for that adoption on the cross. The final phase of the adoption, at least in my view, is when he brings us home. An adopted child has no part in choosing his father. The father does all of the choosing. Predestination refers only to eternal life. The choices we make in life are not predestinated, but they are influienced either by the Spirit or by the flesh. The warfare Paul speaks of. There are some in this world that believe that everything we do is predestinated, but that is a false belief, they are called "absoluters".

I agree with you.

Why are you telling me this?

I was trying to explain that many Arminians use the premise that God has predestined to salvation those whom He foresees will believe on Him.

 

[AnandaHya]

The parable of the sower describes different ways people receive the Word of God. God does not "predestine" some as good soil, rocky soil, etc. It's just the way people are. He want's ALL people to be "good soil".

yes I agree that is what the parable of the sower is about. He desires all people to be "good soil" that is why He sent Jesus to remove the curse that He placed upon all of mankind because of Adam.

Do you remember the curse? If people don't understand the curse they don't understand why they need a savior and why Jesus had to redeem them by His death on the cross and Justify them by His sinless life and be glorified by His resurrection.

Let us talk of the curse of mankind and how Jesus removed it:

Genesis 3
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“ Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

now what kind of ground/soil are people born with:

the kind that has thorns and thistles. the kind that takes toil to grow any type of fruit in: rocky.

so bind up Satan and his birds and you still have thorns and rocks.

it is only through the grace of God that you learn how to remove those thorns and those rocks so the seed might grow in good soil. it is only with a HUMBLE and Contrite and Repentant heart can one be "good soil"

so the choice is will you remain a descendent of Adam or will you be born again into the family of God? It is not by YOUR will this is done, it is by GOD'S

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

without mercy there would be no remission of sins and the curse would remain.

 

[Israel]

The elect are refered to as his sheep. The goats are not of the elect.

Then who are the OTHER sheep mentioned that Jesus takes that ARE NOT OF HIS FOLD?

 

[AnandaHya]

Then who are the OTHER sheep mentioned that Jesus takes that ARE NOT OF HIS FOLD?

the gentiles

 

[Israel]

the goats would be those people that Isaiah is not addressing. the "we" is not the entire world but those who are God's sheep.

the context and the people spoken to makes a big difference.

example

Ezekiel 4
12 And you shall eat it as barley cakes; and bake it using fuel of human waste in their sight.”

is the YOU referring to YOU?

if so...

bon apetit.

If context made that much of a difference, then why even read the bible? it was written for those long dead.

And when will we understand that NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

 

[AnandaHya]

Ezekiel 34:6
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill; yes, My flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them.”

Zephaniah 3:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I will leave in your midst
A meek and humble people,
And they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
13 The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness
And speak no lies,
Nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;
For they shall feed their flocks and lie down,
And no one shall make them afraid.”
14 Sing, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O Israel!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
O daughter of Jerusalem!

 

[DinoDillinger]

4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

They were "written of before", not predestined. The bible prophesies of evil men. It does not say God made them that way.

Are you falling for Calvinism too, cronjecj?

I wonder why most of the translations imply a selection being made, maybe it has something to do with the context.

 

[AnandaHya]

If context made that much of a difference, then why even read the bible? it was written for those long dead. no its not, God is not God of the dead but the living

And when will we understand that NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

when we understand that there ARE different types of flesh and the difference between celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies.

1 Corinthians 15
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

who is the BIBLE address to Israel?

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

It was sent to God's servants. It was sent to those who reads, who hears and who keep those things which are written in it.

again we have:

1 Corinthians 1

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


there is more but you get point, if not I'm always willing to post more scripture. I like scripture.