Those that God gave Christ

[Forest]

shroom

faith comes by hearing the word and in order for the word to take root in our hearts depends where God sows them,

look at the parable of the sower.

only those which had taken root are the elect.

Faith is a gift of God, the natural man does not seek God.

The parable of the sower is showing the different levels of understanding that God's elect have. Not all of God's elect understand the truth, in fact, there is a lot more of his elect that do not understand the truth than there are that do understand the truth. Understanding the truth does not save you eternally and all of God's elect who do not understand the truth are eternally saved. Someone on this forum said I was contradicting myself when making this statement but I assure you I am not. If you want scripture proof, just ask.

 

[Forest]

The parable of the sower describes different ways people receive the Word of God. God does not "predestine" some as good soil, rocky soil, etc. It's just the way people are. He want's ALL people to be "good soil".

All types of soil in this parable is the different levels of understanding the gospel of God's elect people. All are eternally saved even if they do not know the whole truth, just like you Shroom.

 

[Forest]

Exactly. It is by the grace of God that we receive the gift of salvation through faith. We cannot earn it. All we have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Yep. All men are sinners.


Keep reading...
20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Christ's faith justifies us not our faith Gal 2:16.

 

[AnandaHya]

The parable of the sower is showing the different levels of understanding that God's elect have. no its not, its about who has the SEED within them and bears fruit and who does not. if you don't bear good fruit you are not among God's elect.

Not all of God's elect understand the truth, yes they do otherwise they are not of God's elect

in fact, there is a lot more of his elect that do not understand the truth than there are that do understand the truth. yep on that wide road they are.

Understanding the truth does not save you eternally now that's just a flat out lie


and all of God's elect who do not understand the truth are eternally saved. Someone on this forum said I was contradicting myself when making this statement but I assure you I am not.

If you want scripture proof, just ask.

sure give me the scriptures...

by the way it don't matter to me if you contradict yourself you contradict scripture.

if you believe a lie then you are not a part of "God's elect"

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[AnandaHya]

Christ's faith justifies us not our faith Gal 2:16.

the verse says FAITH IN CHRIST not "Christ's faith" there is a difference you would like to ignore to your own peril.


Galatians 2
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

 

[Forest]

I agree with you. The preaching of the Gospel isn't the cause of our eternal salvation, but is a way by which the Holy Spirit saves His elect.

Salvation according to the Greek translators means a deliverance. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to a deliverance we receive here in this world, Rom 1:16 being one of those deliverances we receive here in this world. There is a deliverance in coming unto an understanding of the truth, not eternally but here as soon as we come unto that understanding. Shroom's favorite scripture of how man can save himself eternally, if you haven't noticed yet, is Rom 10. Paul is talking to born again children of God that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge and are going about to establish their own works of righteousness instead of comitting themselves to the righteousness of God and Paul is telling them if they would confess and repent of that selfesh sin that they can be saved (delivered) from depending upon their works for eternal salvation. Shroom interprets it as a way man can save himself by his actions. This is a deliverance(salvation) we can receive here in this world.

 

[Forest]

4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

They were "written of before", not predestined. The bible prophesies of evil men. It does not say God made them that way.

Are you falling for Calvinism too, cronjecj?

What about the potter and the clay, Shroom?

 

[Forest]

I agree with you.

Why are you telling me this?

I was trying to explain that many Arminians use the premise that God has predestined to salvation those whom He foresees will believe on Him.

Sorry about the misconception, my mind is much older than yours and slower.

 

[Forest]

Then who are the OTHER sheep mentioned that Jesus takes that ARE NOT OF HIS FOLD?

All of his elect that were and will be born into this world after that event.

 

[AnandaHya]

All types of soil in this parable is the different levels of understanding the gospel of God's elect people. All are eternally saved even if they do not know the whole truth, just like you Shroom.

omniscient is not a requirement of salvation but knowledge of the Truth and rejection of lies is.

the types of soil is not about the different levels of understanding the gospel of God's elect people.

if it was JESUS would have explained it as such.

Luke 8

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

the wayside people are lost people whom the Devil stole the seed. they don't believe and they are not saved.

the rock people hear but have no roots, they are those who are spoken of in Hebrews 10: 26-31 those who went out from us because they were not truly of us, us being the elect.

the tares people are double minded people spoken of in James 4 who would befriend the world and become enemies of God.

none of those three are among God's elect but if they have tares mixed with wheat and bear good fruit they can still be saved.

 

[shroom2]

What about the potter and the clay, Shroom?

For those interested, here is a link to a teaching on Romans 9

http://www.stfpodcast.com/File/september2011_romans_9.mp3

Here's the blurb about it:

The Bible says God is holy, righteous, and loving. However, there are Scriptures that make God seem unloving and unlovable, and Romans chapter 9 is one such section of Scripture. For example, Romans 9:11-13 seems to say that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before the two boys were even born. Then verse 18 says God hardens those people whom He wants to harden, and verses 21 and 22 seem to say God is a potter who makes people like He wants them, but then pours His wrath out on those who are “prepared for destruction.” Some Christians have no problem with this, believing that it is God’s right as Creator to do whatever He wants. To many others, however, Romans 9 has been confusing at best and has even turned some people away from God. In this 90 minute teaching, John Schoenheit employs his more than forty years of researching the Bible to interpret Romans 9. He shows that if we properly understand the Old Testament examples and quotations, and the use of Semitic idioms, and we translate the Greek text correctly, Romans 9 really teaches that God is loving, merciful, and patient in accomplishing His purposes. We can also see that God works with people according to the freewill choices they make, responding and adjusting as people choose to obey or disobey Him.

There are many good teachings here:

Spirit and Truth Fellowship International

 

[shroom2]

All types of soil in this parable is the different levels of understanding the gospel of God's elect people.

That, Forest, is your very own private interpretation.

All are eternally saved even if they do not know the whole truth, just like you Shroom.

Yes, I surely do not know it all. But I do know you're wrong on your interpretation of that parable.

 

[AnandaHya]

ok I'll listen to it after I finish listening to these lectures:

Critical Issues Commentary: Free Will Radio Broadcasts

Free Will or Bondage of the Will, Part 2
Presented by Bob DeWaay and Dick Kuffel
Broadcast Monday, March 26, 2007
Free will is a popular idea that many think is the key to understanding the Bible. However, it is more a complex philosophical issue than a theological one. This program will help you understand the issue in light of Scripture.
MP3 (duration 00:25:21)


Free Will or Bondage of the Will, Part 1
Presented by Bob DeWaay and Dick Kuffel
Broadcast Monday, March 19, 2007
Free will is a popular idea that many think is the key to understanding the Bible. However, it is more a complex philosophical issue than a theological one. This show will help you understand the issue in light of Scripture.
MP3 (duration 00:28:52)

 

[rafaelsald]

Sorry about the misconception, my mind is much older than yours and slower.

The problem is in me. My English is difficult to understand.

 

[Forest]

sure give me the scriptures...

by the way it don't matter to me if you contradict yourself you contradict scripture.

if you believe a lie then you are not a part of "God's elect"

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I'm sure you will agree that all scripture must harmonise to be the truth. Salvation, saved, saves, all of the different terms of salvation according to Greek translation means a deliverance. Most of the salvation scriptures are refering to deliverances we receive here in this world. If you are not able to understand the differences they will not harmonise. Many are called but few are chosen, Matt 22:14, this chapter is talking about a wedding. The church is the bride of Christ. Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. The person that did not have on the wedding garment was not clothed with the truth. God does not call anyone except his elect. Rom 8:29-30, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also CALLED, and whom he CALLED, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Those that were called to the wedding were all of the elect, but only those who God had revealed the truth were clothed with the wedding garment. The same example is given to us in Matt 7:13-14, God's elect are going in both gates. The elect children of God who go into the wide gate are those who are believing that their good works will save them eternally, they do not have on the wedding garment. The destruction that they receive is not eternal punishment, but they do not have full fellowship with God while here in this world. Those of God's elect who go in the strait gate are those who have on the wedding garment, they are clothed with the truth. Mark 16:16, a very treasured verse of the church of Christ, says that baptism SAVES us, and that is true, but it is a deliverance we receive here and not eternal salvation. 1 Pet 3:21, Noah was saved, not eternally, but saved from the flood, a timely deliverance, the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save (deliver) us from a guilty conscience realising that we were also raised with Christ when he arose from the grave. These are just a few of the salvation scriptures that uphold a timely salvation. Pay close attention as to what the scriptures are saying we are saved from. Eternal salvation is being saved from this sinful world.

 

[Forest]

the verse says FAITH IN CHRIST not "Christ's faith" there is a difference you would like to ignore to your own peril.


Galatians 2
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

If you are studying from the KJV it says, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ (some translations have changed the word "OF" to "IN"), even we have believed (our faith) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "OF" Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. In this one verse we can see both, eternal salvation and timely salvation. The moment that we understand that it was Christ that justified us and not our faith we have received a timely salvation, being delivered from depending upon our works for eternal salvation.

 

[AnandaHya]

For those interested, here is a link to a teaching on Romans 9

http://www.stfpodcast.com/File/september2011_romans_9.mp3

Here's the blurb about it:



There are many good teachings here:

Spirit and Truth Fellowship International

ok i'm on my fourth listening to the sermon. I think I fell asleep last night and my kids were kind of distracting this morning.

I found one point he has is very good. God's hate is not as the world hates. Even His hate is more loving then most people's love.

Do you remember the blessings and "hate" God made to Ishmael (or more to his mother Hagar) and Esau?

Genesis 16
7 Now the Angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?”
She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.”
9 The Angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD said to her:

“ Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi;[a] observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.


Forest I have to do chores but I'll come back after the kids go to bed tonight and respond

have a blessed day

 

[Forest]

omniscient is not a requirement of salvation but knowledge of the Truth and rejection of lies is.

the types of soil is not about the different levels of understanding the gospel of God's elect people.

if it was JESUS would have explained it as such.

Luke 8

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

the wayside people are lost people whom the Devil stole the seed. they don't believe and they are not saved.

the rock people hear but have no roots, they are those who are spoken of in Hebrews 10: 26-31 those who went out from us because they were not truly of us, us being the elect.

the tares people are double minded people spoken of in James 4 who would befriend the world and become enemies of God.

none of those three are among God's elect but if they have tares mixed with wheat and bear good fruit they can still be saved.

The nonelect can never become the elect just because they live among the elect. If you limit the elect to only those who fully understand the truth you will only have a few elect, and I don't think the scriptures teach that there will only be a few that are eternally saved.

 

[Forest]

For those interested, here is a link to a teaching on Romans 9

http://www.stfpodcast.com/File/september2011_romans_9.mp3

Here's the blurb about it:



There are many good teachings here:

Spirit and Truth Fellowship International

You can follow man and believe in him, but I will stick with the inspired word of God. There is a way that seemeth right unto man but the end thereof is the way of death. Matt 11:25-26, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[shroom2]

You can follow man and believe in him, but I will stick with the inspired word of God. There is a way that seemeth right unto man but the end thereof is the way of death. Matt 11:25-26, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

You have to rightly-divide God's Word to have Truth, Forest. Coming away from scripture believing God wills to save only some but sentences others to destruction before they are even born is believing error, not Truth. The error you believe was not revealed to you by God. It is your erroneous interpretation.

God is love, He is light, in Him is no darkness at all. Sentencing people to eternal destruction before they are born is not love, or light.