Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer
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I saw it in the works-based churches - those that believe in the false doctrine of losing one's salvation and that their eternal life in Christ is really dependent on them.
In the true grace believing churches I have seen the people growing in the grace and knowledge of God. There are still growing pains as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ but they do not give up on the Lord because they know there is no condemnation for them because they are in Christ.
Some do go off on tangents but I see them coming out of that quickly. Even then we don't water down the gospel just because some mis-understand it. If someone says "I can live in adultery because I am under grace. " The leadership talks with that person and tells them - no you are not living under grace because grace teaches us to live godly in this present world.
They are actually putting themselves back under law and trying to get life from an outside source other than the life of Christ in them.
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:6
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love.
Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
1 John 4:16
Now if you love God, love people, love the people of God, you know God.
I hate to offer advice, but when scripture is this clear, maybe more bible study
and application to the heart would make this clearer. God bless.
It has been shown multiple times that Jude 1:4 is not saying that people are saying that we can sin all we want because of grace and thus turning grace into something else. It actually says "exchanging , or removing grace" for something else.
Check out the meaning of the Greek word "turn" in the KLV of Jude 1:4 and then see where the very same word was used before and you will see that the belief that it says people are saying we can sin all we want now because of grace is completely false. it is what some religious teachings have taught us but it is not the truth.
I said that I have seen it before and I saw it in my own life = before the Holy Spirit taught me about the gospel of the grace of God. Something He did without me even hearing of it before. Then when I saw others on line - it was the very same thing I was taught.
Here is my story which I have posted a few times in CC.
The interesting thing about this is that I did not learn this initially from any preacher or teacher. I was just going about my own business and I had won a trip to Puerto Rico with my work. I remember in a social meeting one person in our group asked about heaven. I told them I know exactly where I am going. They said "how do you know that?"
I told them " I am going to kneel before my Father and declare that His Son ,,my Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for me and I am here because of Him."
They all looked at me as if I was from another planet. "I said this will be my greatest achievement if one can even call it that - and that is to kneel down and confess Jesus and what He has done". ( they were shocked because I had won more awards then many others and to them...performance was everything )
Then a few weeks later I woke up with a scripture in my spirit - not my head. I wrote it down and then every morning for a few months the Lord would drop a scripture in my spirit. I still to this day from time to time take out those scriptures and meditate on them ( which includes confessing/agreeing with them ) as I feel directed by the Lord.
Now, those scriptures were the gospel of the grace of Christ and as I was learning more about them the Lord started me to look on the web for things and sure enough there were preachers preaching the same thing the Holy Spirit was showing me. I had never heard of any of these preachers before the Lord directed me to them. So, I was taught the gospel of the grace of Christ before I ever heard another preacher talk about it.
I can remember times when the Holy Spirit would come upon me ( it seemed like He came upon me - or maybe welled up within me...I'm not sure but it felt like He wrapped me up as in a blanket of pure love ) - and He was teaching me things concerning Christ and the true nature of the Father.
His power is overwhelming and very heavy and I couldn't move a muscle but just sit there and weep as He revealed His love and grace to me. His love is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence. It is so strong and you can take much of it as it just overwhelms you.
Since then the Lord has led me to many different people from many denominations to learn what they are anointed to teach on.
The problem in churches is often in the realm of emotional intelligence.
They have the social side quite well figured out, but when it comes to emotional reality,
to caring and respecting people, it often becomes very superficial, and we are not family
but strangers speaking idealistic notions.
In my house group I have been working on this side of our lives, really knowing each other
and learning how to love and appreciate one another. And this is where things get hard.
If you cannot go beyond and see people as they are, and still like, appreciate and love
them, then life and faith is often just a show.
Jesus loves us beyond these surface issues, down to the very structure of our souls.
This is where the Holy Spirit speaks and wants us to work, to build, to encourage, to love.
When faith, going to church, does not work here, where are we, tumble weed drifting
along not sure which way our social conventions will push us? lol.
They have the social side quite well figured out, but when it comes to emotional reality,
to caring and respecting people, it often becomes very superficial, and we are not family
but strangers speaking idealistic notions.
In my house group I have been working on this side of our lives, really knowing each other
and learning how to love and appreciate one another. And this is where things get hard.
If you cannot go beyond and see people as they are, and still like, appreciate and love
them, then life and faith is often just a show.
Jesus loves us beyond these surface issues, down to the very structure of our souls.
This is where the Holy Spirit speaks and wants us to work, to build, to encourage, to love.
When faith, going to church, does not work here, where are we, tumble weed drifting
along not sure which way our social conventions will push us? lol.
Yes..our minds can get messed up for various reasons.
No churches are to be condemned. It's the belief system that is anti-Christ at it's core that is to be exposed for it's deceptiveness and destruction that it brings. God loves those people dearly.
It can happen in any church where the gospel of the grace of God is not taught as it should be - such as in this "surrender your life" stuff which denies the work of Christ on the cross. And I believe people will do it in grace churches too but the Lord will discipline all of us - no matter what church we go to.
No one is exempt from being deceived which is why we need to preach and teach the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ so that they will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him - other then that - we are just creating another religion that incorporates the name of Jesus, God, word of God and Spirit in it.
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Your story starting at a few weeks later is similar to how the Spirit is leading me I have feelings that are without words guiding me. You are a very spiritual man and I respect that and can't wait to meet you in heaven and talk about fishing trips, which we should do sometime instead of debating over things that really, in the end, we are both loving God.
Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that you see the Lord in me and I see Him in you too and the warnings of scripture for living in this life and depending on Christ are to be heeded so your words are not in vain.
I hear ya brother... All is well! And we will go fishing together and the Lord Himself will be with us and He will be smiling the whole time and having fun with us.
I believe truth is like driving in the early morning - we can see something up ahead and it looks like a moose on the corner of the road. As we keep beholding it - we get more light and then as we get closer - we see that it is really a tree.
Peter puts it this way. As the day dawns and the morning star arises in our hearts. Jesus is the morning star that arises from our hearts as we see Him for who He truly is.
2 Peter 1:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
I hear ya brother... All is well! And we will go fishing together and the Lord Himself will be with us and He will be smiling the whole time and having fun with us.
I believe truth is like driving in the early morning - we can see something up ahead and it looks like a moose on the corner of the road. As we keep beholding it - we get more light and then as we get closer - we see that it is really a tree.
Peter puts it this way. As the day dawns and the morning star arises in our hearts. Jesus is the morning star that arises from our hearts as we see Him for who He truly is.
2 Peter 1:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
the problem with most churches is NOT " emotional intelligence " , ( what ever that means ) . as usual, it is all about feelings and emotion with you. facts do not matter if they do not line up with your " feelings ".
the problem of most churches is false teaching, going against truth and facts. not going against emotions. false teaching works because it feeds emotions with feel-good stuff instead of facts.
the problem of most churches is false teaching, going against truth and facts. not going against emotions. false teaching works because it feeds emotions with feel-good stuff instead of facts.
I saw very similar things in the charismatic revival in the 70's.
Gods love is astounding, he overwhelms people when they encounter it.
The problem is this experience becomes the definition of everything and rather
than adding insight into the structure of life, people touched go off into condemnation
of their existing church organisations and those who hold a more conservative and less
expressive view of faith as non-believers or the real reason why the church is ..... whatever
negative insight they have.
So if I come sharing we need to love, love from the heart, walk in the word, the Holy Spirit,
be transformed, grow in grace and gain real victory and fulfillment in following Jesus I am
the enemy.
This demonstrates God reveals himself to many, it is up to them how they interpret this
experience and react. God sees how in this sinful world, if He reveals His heart to some
they end up worse than before, while holding back from others, brings some stability
but they miss the essence. Maturity does not come through I have x number of experiences
with the Lord so I really know my stuff...
Jesus spoke to Judas, and Judas still betrayed Him. What matters is what we do with revelation
not the fact we have received it.
Gods love is astounding, he overwhelms people when they encounter it.
The problem is this experience becomes the definition of everything and rather
than adding insight into the structure of life, people touched go off into condemnation
of their existing church organisations and those who hold a more conservative and less
expressive view of faith as non-believers or the real reason why the church is ..... whatever
negative insight they have.
So if I come sharing we need to love, love from the heart, walk in the word, the Holy Spirit,
be transformed, grow in grace and gain real victory and fulfillment in following Jesus I am
the enemy.
This demonstrates God reveals himself to many, it is up to them how they interpret this
experience and react. God sees how in this sinful world, if He reveals His heart to some
they end up worse than before, while holding back from others, brings some stability
but they miss the essence. Maturity does not come through I have x number of experiences
with the Lord so I really know my stuff...
Jesus spoke to Judas, and Judas still betrayed Him. What matters is what we do with revelation
not the fact we have received it.
E
No, Jude condemned people who because of pride refused to repent.. They came to church, Took grace and made a mockery of it.
But Jude also said they were never saved. And he NEVER said it would be a good idea to replace grace with works, because some people twist grace and make a mockery of it.. Legalism makes a mockery of grace just as much as liscentiousness does.. Both false gospels are based on PRIDE
James did the exact same in his letter. Claiming just because a person claims to have faith in God does not mean they ever did.. Many people are hearers not doers... They had no faith, thus their "claimed faith" could. Not save them.
Paul spoke of people who were false teachers also.. Peter said many twisted Paul's words.. John said many come to church, But it does not mean they were ever saved, for many have departed. Proving they were never part of the church.
Just because someone says they are saved, Even if they ACT like christians, does not mean they evert were..
But Jude also said they were never saved. And he NEVER said it would be a good idea to replace grace with works, because some people twist grace and make a mockery of it.. Legalism makes a mockery of grace just as much as liscentiousness does.. Both false gospels are based on PRIDE
James did the exact same in his letter. Claiming just because a person claims to have faith in God does not mean they ever did.. Many people are hearers not doers... They had no faith, thus their "claimed faith" could. Not save them.
Paul spoke of people who were false teachers also.. Peter said many twisted Paul's words.. John said many come to church, But it does not mean they were ever saved, for many have departed. Proving they were never part of the church.
Just because someone says they are saved, Even if they ACT like christians, does not mean they evert were..
E
Say what?
You never answered me,, Would you ever lose faith in someone who NEVER let you down, Who ALWAYS has your best interest in heart. Who saved you from eternal wrath?
Do you have an answer? Saying you have seen it does not answer my question. You can not prove those people ever had faith to begin with..