To comfort those who speak in tongues

[posthuman]

it is a command of Jesus and a demonstration of the power of GOD:

Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

well for goodness sake, what are you & Russ doing here on the internet??
why not at the morgues & the hospitals???

everyone in the western world has video-capable phones in their pockets these days, right?
so what's preventing one of you from raising the dead, posting it to youtube and handily linking the evidence here whenever someone doubts?

Christ worked miracles daily. His apostles evidently did the same things and more. there was abundant evidence and hundreds and thousands of witnesses.
now, if there's anything more than bluster and 'languages' no one is able to interpret, where is it?

or is the scripture accurate when it says those things will pass, but faith, hope & love remain?

i don't despise power or deny it. but all i see here is talk, talk talk.

 

[convallaria]

well for goodness sake, what are you & Russ doing here on the internet??
why not at the morgues & the hospitals???

Because that would be at the command of GOD....not yours?

 

[ladylynn]

well for sure...I never learned a thing about tongues or any gifts in the church I was brought up in and as a child I heard a sermon that led me to believe that tongues were something that came out of a jungle and ate natives...basically it seemed to be a lesson on why you should never participate because if you did it would be very dangerous

My grandparents also were against the gifts...they came over directly from Europe just prior to WWII and my grandad had some bad experiences in ...not sure if they were Pentecostal or what kind of church exactly, but he spoke of people loosing it and rolling on the floor...frothing...and just basically acting nuts

I have seen some really nutty things also...one church we visited in CA, there was one guy literally climbing up a pole and whooping and women were screaming and people on the floor and 'tongues everywhere'...it was chaos...interesting to watch...if anyone would have offered to pray for me...I would not have let them!

More recently, there was this phenomena going on also, where a person would bend over from the waist and bob up and down violently...I remember one time, being on the platform as part of the worship team and the pastor's wife suddenly starts doing that...she just interupted the time we were having with the Lord and it was like another spirit took over

so, I really can understand the hesitation of so many...




I totally agree with the above

As I said in posts before, when people get saved they don't lose their personalities. If you are a passionate emotional unsaved person, you won't just change into a subdued un-passionate unemotional person. Of course people take spiritual biblical things and put their emotions into them so that the actual truth is lost in the loudness of the persons behavior., but that does not take anything away from the truth of the Bible. That is A MAJOR reason why we better know what the Bible says for ourselves because we will come across many people who ARE Christians who will disappoint us and even shock us by their ungodly behavior. They know the Bible and go to church but they are carnal Christians given over to carnal behavior. This is not just about such things as speaking in tongues but being excessive with money or being a cheapskate or being dishonest or prideful.

It is a huge mistake to put up these walls and say "your God my God" When we do this on CC it just separates us into division and like I said before brings out the worse in us. But it is also a mistake to belittle and make fun of other believers who do or don't do what you do. It's silly and childish to get into fights over it. I'm all for discussion and it's one of the reasons I like coming here. But it is so childish to allow our emotions to get in the way and start with the name calling and accusations. That is just carnality coming out, allowing our flesh to lead and not the Spirit. There are better ways to make a point and it's even enjoyable to make a point and hit home using a timely word at the right time.

I was not won over by anyone who condemned or belittled me no matter how right they were. It's obvious there are many knowledgeable biblical Christians here on CC but we do not always agree with one another. To learn how to reason together is well worth the effort. It's not about YOUR God or MY God. He is OUR God and He is not surprised by our differences. He told us to use Love in such situations.

 

[notuptome]

No it is a command of Jesus and a demonstration of the power of GOD:

Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

And who is it that do these things? let me see.....

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So who would they be who don't do any of those things Jesus said?

Could it possibly be.....them that DON'T believe.......?

Mat 10:8 Jesus sends the disciples out to Israel to demonstrate the power of God. Pre resurrection so no Holy Spirit baptism or filling at this time. This was an example of what would be expected in the kingdom of God when Christ is seated on the throne in Jerusalem. Power was withdrawn after this one example and will be withheld until Messiahs return.

Mark 16:17-18 Poor examples and the text does not appear in the early manuscripts. Likely the real ending of Mark is lost and the one we have was written by a scribe who amended the prior texts. It is not confirmed or repeated elsewhere in scripture so it must be received with caution. I suggest that you do not play with poisonous snakes or drink deadly poisons on purpose to demonstrate the power of God. You will simply demonstrate that God is not to be tempted with capricious behavior.

Short answer Jesus did not say that to the church most likely Jesus did not say the Long ending of Mark at all. . Jesus prophecy to Israel in Mat is not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wattie]

wattie;2269269]The desire i have to see especially the sign gifts as not real for today is the conviction that nothing but the completed bible fits 1 Corinthians 13 as the 'perfect (mature, complete) thing'

This passage does not say the gifts won't cease, its just a matter of when, not if, and it has been nearly 2000 years since Paul wrote they would cease.

well if we keep reading, we will find that the Bible states everything will pass away...burn up in fact....I do not have the conviction that you have. My conviction leans more towards exposing how fake much of the use of the gifts actually are, keeping in mind I speak in tongues myself, I am well aware of the abuse that goes on...nothing like the biblical model!

and then people come on and encourage everyone to seek a particular gift when we should really seek Jesus...so, then we end up with a thread that is basically one big disagreement and no one is helped...so believe me, I definately see the other side of the coin

He was also particularly writing to the Corinthian church- not to us now.

well I totally disagree here...as the Bible states that ALL of the Bible is for teaching and admonishment and instructione tc, I would not be quick to state that this part or that part is not for us...either we accept the Bible or we do not...there is far far more to be learned in I and II Corinthians than just how to behave in a proper manner while exercising spiritual gifts

If Corinthians is not for us, then perhaps neither are Ephesians, Galatians and Jude or for that matter any other letter(s) written to a church? To be honest, I have not come across an awful lot of people who seem to think that certain portions of the NT are no longer valid for this day...I was brought up in a church where the entire Bible was valid other than that they did not believe tongues were for today...but this is actually common and not the same as what you are stating

I am sure u know this already that just because something is in the NT doesnt mean it is for us now unless there is no limit of time placed on it.

People dont 'greet eachother with a kiss' in Gods churches anymore as rule.

the customs of the day may not apply...but that is hardly the word of God, right? I mean Paul nor anyone else comes out and says 'I have it on the authority of God we all need to kiss each other in greeting'...he is simply referring to a custom of the day...like we might say give a handshake or a hug...it's not instruction from God

In the OT God promised never to flood the world again.

The system of sacrificing animals to please God is no longer in effect etc..

well, we have one final sacrifice so we no longer need to sacrifice animals, which, as you may remember, God said their blood could never actually remove sin anyway...only the blood of His Son can do this...I mean we also do not ride camels or live in tents...so that is hardly a comparison IMO

So my denial that tongues and prophecy and knowledge as a supernatural gift is not that it never happened in the first place but that these gifts have done their job.

Someone may share the gospel to an unbeliever in the unbelievers own language now. This isnt the 'gift of tongues'. The only way it would be was if the person sharing didnt know the language. If I saw this happening as the bible has it- then i would have to review what paul meant in 1corinthians.

The NT verses and instructions on tongues really surpass your knowledge of them it seems to me...tongues have actually far more to do with the believer than someone hearing a language spoken by someone who never learned it

But the fact is in all the Pentecostal and charismatic assemblies i have been to see.... NONE have abided by the biblical standards for practicing yhe gifts.

I can almost agree with you here but I have been to a few churches or homegroups where the biblical model is followed

I am not Pentecostal and I probably would not say charismatic either because of all the off the wall stuff that goes on in many churches

What I was meaning by writing that Paul was writing to the church of Corinth.. not to us now.. is related to the fact it has been 2000 years since he wrote to the church of Corinth.

You can apply almost everything in the NT to now.. but if 'the perfect thing' is the completed canon.. then you don't apply verses about guidelines for tongues, prophecy knowledge gifts to now.

That is all I am saying. Not that the entire book of Corinth isn't for now.. or Ephesians etc..

Just that if there is a limit placed on something in the bible.. and the thing that limits it has come and gone.. then you don't follow it!

That's all

 

[wattie]

Mat 10:8 Jesus sends the disciples out to Israel to demonstrate the power of God. Pre resurrection so no Holy Spirit baptism or filling at this time. This was an example of what would be expected in the kingdom of God when Christ is seated on the throne in Jerusalem. Power was withdrawn after this one example and will be withheld until Messiahs return.

Mark 16:17-18 Poor examples and the text does not appear in the early manuscripts. Likely the real ending of Mark is lost and the one we have was written by a scribe who amended the prior texts. It is not confirmed or repeated elsewhere in scripture so it must be received with caution. I suggest that you do not play with poisonous snakes or drink deadly poisons on purpose to demonstrate the power of God. You will simply demonstrate that God is not to be tempted with capricious behavior.

Short answer Jesus did not say that to the church most likely Jesus did not say the Long ending of Mark at all. . Jesus prophecy to Israel in Mat is not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Or Mark 16:17-18 was fulfilled in the apostles and disciples and early churches?

Eg. Jesus speaking to a particular group that then did just as He said they would.. and the early churches did as these did as the original group planted the early churches?

 

[posthuman]

Because that would be at the command of GOD....not yours?

yes, that's what Roger was getting at, and what i hoped you'd say

i don't manipulate God, saying "i'm a prophet - watch me prophesy"
or "i can heal" or cast out demons or raise the dead or whatever -- none of us "choose" the gift, but the Giver does.
i'm not a prophet. i'm not a healer. i'm not an exorcist. i'm not a "tongue-speaker" -- the Spirit of God lives in me, and it is that Spirit that is all these things, and more than that, greater than all those things - the Spirit works in me faith, hope and love.

to trust God, to have sure hope, and to love -- these are greater works than physical signs. those miracles were done so that others might see them and have faith! so that because of them others might have hope! so they worked to accomplish a greater thing!

if we were to boast in the Lord and His goodness towards us, we might be granted to be used to display His power. but if we boast of gifts & powers, isn't it vain? won't the Lord humble us because of our pride?

if God uses me to prophesy or to teach, i will not say "i am a prophet" or "i am a teacher" -- let another praise me, and not my own mouth. let God be praised, who works in ((manipulates)) me. if a tree is cut down, we say the one wielding the axe did it, not the axe itself.

 

[ladylynn]

Mat 10:8 Jesus sends the disciples out to Israel to demonstrate the power of God. Pre resurrection so no Holy Spirit baptism or filling at this time. This was an example of what would be expected in the kingdom of God when Christ is seated on the throne in Jerusalem. Power was withdrawn after this one example and will be withheld until Messiahs return.

Mark 16:17-18 Poor examples and the text does not appear in the early manuscripts. Likely the real ending of Mark is lost and the one we have was written by a scribe who amended the prior texts. It is not confirmed or repeated elsewhere in scripture so it must be received with caution. I suggest that you do not play with poisonous snakes or drink deadly poisons on purpose to demonstrate the power of God. You will simply demonstrate that God is not to be tempted with capricious behavior.

Short answer Jesus did not say that to the church most likely Jesus did not say the Long ending of Mark at all. . Jesus prophecy to Israel in Mat is not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If a person does not believe it, it most certainly will not happen. We can't just decide certain Bible verses are not in the Bible., God left it in there and God has preserved His Word for all these years so it is the scripture we are not to add or take away from it. Again, I totally agree with this writer and appreciate using His Bible commentary for such subjects like this.


Some people have tried to get around these verses by saying that they were not found in some of the oldest manuscripts. The only reason that people desire to explain these scriptures away is because their lives don’t match up with them. Instead of changing themselves, they would rather change the scriptures.
We still have the same authority today that Jesus gave His disciples to cast out devils. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it.

We are still supposed to walk in victory over the devil, and if a true believer lays hands on the sick, they will recover. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever” (Hebrews 13:8).
NOTE 11 AT MARK 16:17:
When Jesus said that we would do these signs in His name, He was referring to doing these signs through His power and ability. He gave us His power of attorney.
NOTE 12 AT MARK 16:17:
Casting out devils is not a special ministry for only some in the body of Christ. It is the right of every believer. No one who reads the Bible can deny that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of people. Still some don’t believe that this has any relevance to us today. All they have to do is look around at the depravity in our society, and they can see that we still have demon possession today (see note 3 at Mark 1:32).
NOTE 13 AT MARK 16:17:
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit discussed in 1 Corinthians 12-14. It is one of the first miraculous manifestations that accompanies receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4, 10:46, and 19:6).
There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels. The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost. There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1 Corinthians 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1 Corinthians 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it iinterpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5)Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1 Corinthians 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1 Corinthians 14:4).

 

[RussellJBenigno]

No it is a command of Jesus and a demonstration of the power of GOD:

Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

And who is it that do these things? let me see.....

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So who would they be who don't do any of those things Jesus said?

Could it possibly be.....them that DON'T believe.......?

The only manipulation going on here is manipulating people away from the True and Living God to a false god of paper and ink. A god who has no power because he is bound in a book of paper and vain imaginations of being inept.

Fall down and worship your god of paper and ink.
(Judg 10:14 [AKJV])
Go and cry to the gods which you have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Because that would be at the command of GOD....not yours?

Correct! We hear and see what our Father shows us and follow His commands.
We don't tell The True and Living God He can't do this and he can't do that.
(John 14:12-13 [AKJV])
Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father. And whatever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(Matt 18:19 [AKJV])
Again I say to you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Yet we are mocked, because we hold His Word to be True.

 

[RickyZ]

Well we get to hear from the first church of the heretic. Thou who dwellest in the land of delusion. Moved any mountains lately?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger you make me laugh. I don't know why but you do. Chuckle out loud.

And to answer the question, why yes, the Holy Spirit is enlisting my participation in moving a particularly large mountain at this time.

Climb any mole hills lately Rog? Or is the god you serve to impotent for even that?

 

[RickyZ]

well for goodness sake, what are you & Russ doing here on the internet??
why not at the morgues & the hospitals???

You know, I never saw Jesus empty a hospital. He must be a fake too.

 

[RickyZ]

Mat 10:8 Jesus sends the disciples out to Israel to demonstrate the power of God. Pre resurrection so no Holy Spirit baptism or filling at this time. This was an example of what would be expected in the kingdom of God when Christ is seated on the throne in Jerusalem. Power was withdrawn after this one example and will be withheld until Messiahs return.

Mark 16:17-18 Poor examples and the text does not appear in the early manuscripts. Likely the real ending of Mark is lost and the one we have was written by a scribe who amended the prior texts. It is not confirmed or repeated elsewhere in scripture so it must be received with caution. I suggest that you do not play with poisonous snakes or drink deadly poisons on purpose to demonstrate the power of God. You will simply demonstrate that God is not to be tempted with capricious behavior.

Short answer Jesus did not say that to the church most likely Jesus did not say the Long ending of Mark at all. . Jesus prophecy to Israel in Mat is not for the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So, then, since those writings don't apply to you, you've ripped them out of your Bible right? I mean, no sense cluttering up a good book with a bunch of irrelevant banter.

 

[Zoe1234]

Anyone of you who has suspicions, pray to God.
Anyone of you who thinks that you know for sure, pray to God.

"Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love."----1CO 13:13

Cant you guys see that Paul missed something? Obviously, argument remains too.

 

[convallaria]

yes, that's what Roger was getting at, and what i hoped you'd say

i don't manipulate God, saying "i'm a prophet - watch me prophesy"
or "i can heal" or cast out demons or raise the dead or whatever -- none of us "choose" the gift, but the Giver does.
i'm not a prophet. i'm not a healer. i'm not an exorcist. i'm not a "tongue-speaker" -- the Spirit of God lives in me, and it is that Spirit that is all these things, and more than that, greater than all those things - the Spirit works in me faith, hope and love.

to trust God, to have sure hope, and to love -- these are greater works than physical signs. those miracles were done so that others might see them and have faith! so that because of them others might have hope! so they worked to accomplish a greater thing!

if we were to boast in the Lord and His goodness towards us, we might be granted to be used to display His power. but if we boast of gifts & powers, isn't it vain? won't the Lord humble us because of our pride?

if God uses me to prophesy or to teach, i will not say "i am a prophet" or "i am a teacher" -- let another praise me, and not my own mouth. let God be praised, who works in ((manipulates)) me. if a tree is cut down, we say the one wielding the axe did it, not the axe itself.

Show me where you see boasting? You can't boast in something that you received, that wasn't yours in the first place.
We are compelled to keep speaking of this because of the spiritual poverty of those who believe cessationism is sound doctrine. There is no boasting. There is jealousy, but not on our part. And the jealous ones will call our part boasting and any other thing they can invent to discredit us.

 

[convallaria]

Anyone of you who has suspicions, pray to God.
Anyone of you who thinks that you know for sure, pray to God.

"Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love."----1CO 13:13

Cant you guys see that Paul missed something? Obviously, argument remains too.

PAUL MISSED SOMETHING? Ever heard of contending for the faith?

 

[convallaria]

The only manipulation going on here is manipulating people away from the True and Living God to a false god of paper and ink. A god who has no power because he is bound in a book of paper and vain imaginations of being inept.

Fall down and worship your god of paper and ink.
(Judg 10:14 [AKJV])
Go and cry to the gods which you have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.

Amen and if they would read the Bible properly, they would find those places where the quick and powerful Holy Spirit would reveal their rebellion and error instead of making us the bad guys, and everyone else who disagrees with them.

Jesus is the only solution when you find that GOD Himself disagrees with you, which they will, hopefully sooner rather than later...because by then it will be too late.

 

[Zoe1234]

Of course we should contend for the faith, and truth!

But see those arguments on if gifts like healing or speaking in tongues are ceased! it never ends. Did God tell you which side stands for the truth? and which side has real faith? All I was trying to say is, there is not use arguing things like this. Why dont we spend more time on building up our faith and doing what Jesus commands us to do like helping needys and praying and so on?

Thats all. Dont misinterpret, thanks.

PAUL MISSED SOMETHING? Ever heard of contending for the faith?

 

[convallaria]

Of course we should contend for the faith, and truth!

But see those arguments on if gifts like healing or speaking in tongues are ceased! it never ends. Did God tell you which side stands for the truth? and which side has real faith? All I was trying to say is, there is not use arguing things like this. Why dont we spend more time on building up our faith and doing what Jesus commands us to do like helping needys and praying and so on?

Thats all. Dont misinterpret, thanks.

But you have missed my point really.The Lord LOVES even people who are up to their necks in false teaching like cessationism....and that is why He sends people to help them out of the devil's snare. BUT He will never violate their free will, and unfortunately those who do not repent and wake up will find out too late that it led them down the road to destruction.

Sound doctrine is not just one of the many Christian options....it is essential and life-saving, because if we believe false doctrine we do not know the Lord at all, nor He us, and He will say "depart from Me I never knew you".

Now I think sound doctrine IS something worth fighting for, on that basis.

 

[RickyZ]

yes, that's what Roger was getting at, and what i hoped you'd say

i don't manipulate God, saying "i'm a prophet - watch me prophesy"
or "i can heal" or cast out demons or raise the dead or whatever -- none of us "choose" the gift, but the Giver does.
i'm not a prophet. i'm not a healer. i'm not an exorcist. i'm not a "tongue-speaker" -- the Spirit of God lives in me, and it is that Spirit that is all these things, and more than that, greater than all those things - the Spirit works in me faith, hope and love.

to trust God, to have sure hope, and to love -- these are greater works than physical signs. those miracles were done so that others might see them and have faith! so that because of them others might have hope! so they worked to accomplish a greater thing!

if we were to boast in the Lord and His goodness towards us, we might be granted to be used to display His power. but if we boast of gifts & powers, isn't it vain? won't the Lord humble us because of our pride?

if God uses me to prophesy or to teach, i will not say "i am a prophet" or "i am a teacher" -- let another praise me, and not my own mouth. let God be praised, who works in ((manipulates)) me. if a tree is cut down, we say the one wielding the axe did it, not the axe itself.

You are absolutely right in this, that boasting is a sign of falsehood. Like your axe the one and only thing we bring to this table is our availability. And we should take little more away from the experience than an ever sharper blade of praise for God. That's a point of discernment between the real and the false... who or what ultimately gets the glory? If it's God chances are it's real, if it's the participant chances are it's not.

The trouble here lay in the inability of a participant to convey personal experience without using the word "I". Too often the word I is taken to be boastful instead of descriptive.

Roger and I are a perfect example of all this. I (sorry there's that word again but please if you know another way to express it please let me know) have seen mountainous miracles performed by God, because I have had faith and like a good axe made myself available to them. And that's ALL I've had to do with them, is to tell God I believe He still does such things and that hey, if some day You might have use for this piece of human trash in delivering one count me in. That's it, that's all I can do and have ever done. And bless His Holy Name if He hasn't used this piece of trash to do just that. But really it was all Him, other than standing there with a dumb look on my face my involvement only happened to be right place/right time and availability.

So I share these experiences with Roger, and even tho they be lengthy and involved all he hears is one word - I. He thinks I'm boasting and thumping my chest when really, 1,000% in my heart of hearts, my soul just cries and begs that he learn to "put your name here". The only reason I share these things with him is to say hey look at what you're missing out on. And by your missing out, God is missing out on a chance to help someone, who is then also missing out on a chance to receive one. But his pride won't let him see that, or even entertain it. The point of the things I share is that a woman who was near slicing her wrist was taken to a place of safety and hope; a child for whom the raising of the waves confirmed God's power; a man who's anger towards God was mitigated by a vision and revelation... THAT THAT THAT is what I want Roger - and those like him - to see and hear in my relatings. But nope, deyup deyup deyup, all's he heres is "I". "Why's that boastfuul sob! I's don't wants no pawt in such things".

But you do. You really really do. It's only the availability of the axe that enables the lumberjack to topple the biigest trees. That's what the word "I" is trying to tell you.