To what extent does the OT apply to Christians?

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OrphanedRepublican

OrphanedRepublican

Banned
#21
Apr 26, 2021
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#21
Shlomit said:
So the laws of the OT are not relevant to Christians. I understand.
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Perhaps you don't understand the word "laws."

All of God's words can be characterized as laws, judgments, commandments, precepts, statutes, testimonies, sayings, etc.

Not one written word of God in the OT is "rescinded," therefore no "laws" are rescinded.

You are speaking about laws (perhaps the Levitical laws) as specific "practices" that must be observed, obeyed, carried out and performed. It's not able to be practiced, those "Levitical laws" these days even for national Israel. They don't have a temple. And the parable of the husbandmen of the vineyard teaches that the Levitical ways are taken from them and the covenant of baptism to repentance and of the Holy Spirit is performing all the work now the husbandmen neglected and refused to yield up.

You have heard that Jesus fulfilled the law. The Levitical laws are at an end, the final and perfect sacrifice for sin has been made.

The good news is that by heeding, observing, meditating, contemplating, recalling and studying is how a "doer" of the law is described. Jesus always reminded people "it is written ..." referring us back to his scriptures. Obeying them is to constantly examine, study and remember them.

A good place to start is a careful, thorough study of Psalm 119. It's like 179 verses, but every verse speaks to God's laws, testimonies, commandments, judgments, words, sayings.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#22
Jul 2, 2011
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#22
The Israel of today bears no resemblance whatsoeve to that of the original.

The original had no denominations.

The Kenesset was not needed for they had the Temple along with the constitution, that being the Word until it went out of existence.

The Israel of today is nothing more than the staging grounds for the fulfillment of Elohanu's will for the last moments of what is called dtime.

This list could go on and on, but anyone with just a small amount of reason can see this is true. All glory and power, and dominioin to our God, amen.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#23
Apr 21, 2021
8,271
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#23
Shlomit said:
Hello.

I have recieved many mixed messages from Christians regarding the OT. One on hand, many argue that the dietary laws, practises such as circumcision and obeying the Sabbath do not need to be observed. Many other Christians argue homosexuality should not be practised on the basis that it is forbidden in the OT.

Would anyone like to offer some clarity?

Thank you
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Shlomit, may I ask, are you a Christian?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
#24
crossnote said:
Without their Temple, priesthood, and sacrifices, it would be impossible.
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True. As a whole. But they still may want to keep it in living under their covenant.

Not saying they had to though. As always they have freedom also.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#25
Nov 24, 2012
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#25
eternally-gratefull said:
True. As a whole. But they still may want to keep it in living under their covenant.

Not saying they had to though. As always they have freedom also.
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It would do them no good to live in the old covenant as it would be an act of disobedience to God's New Covenant that He has offered to His people, the Jews. It's not a walk of faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#26
#26
crossnote said:
It would do them no good to live in the old covenant as it would be an act of disobedience to God's New Covenant that He has offered to His people, the Jews. It's not a walk of faith.
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Yes.

But I am talking about the land covenant.

I am not sure, I could be wrong. But I believe those things will still be in effect for them.

Not concerning salvation. If a jew wants to do them, I should not judge them as paul said. Each to his own.
 
soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#27
May 3, 2018
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#27
I have nothing to say about maintaining the Jewish tradition. I hope they can accept Jesus Christ and live in harmony with their neighbors Palestine.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#28
Nov 24, 2012
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#28
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes.

But I am talking about the land covenant.

I am not sure, I could be wrong. But I believe those things will still be in effect for them.

Not concerning salvation. If a jew wants to do them, I should not judge them as paul said. Each to his own.
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Yes the Land Covenant was given to Abraham and Isaac and does not fall under the Mosaic/Levitical system. It's based on promise, not obedience.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#29
Nov 24, 2012
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#29
soberxp said:
I have nothing to say about maintaining the Jewish tradition. I hope they can accept Jesus Christ and live in harmony with their neighbors Palestine.
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Problem is, every war since 1948 has been initiated by the Palestinians/Arabs.
 
soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#30
May 3, 2018
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#30
In the Old Testament, In a battle, less is better than more,Christians are still the minority, unbelievers are still the majority,This battle is a wonderful battle for Biblical Preaching. God wants us to know he will be with us, and will win the fight if we obey God.
I think that's what the Old Testament does and use for the NT.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#31
#31
crossnote said:
Yes the Land Covenant was given to Abraham and Isaac and does not fall under the Mosaic/Levitical system. It's based on promise, not obedience.
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Yes. But if they were to live in peace. The mosaic covenant, even the punishment for disobedience (lev 26), was the guide.

The moral law is absolute. the rest are civil laws as imposed by God who wanted to be their king. I am sure he will still want them to keep these laws under his rule. he gave them for a reason.

again, I could be wrong. This is just how I see it brother
 
soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#33
May 3, 2018
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#33
crossnote said:
Problem is, every war since 1948 has been initiated by the Palestinians/Arabs.
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We can't repeat the old tune,
If God is on Israel's side, let Israel win since 1984. And how about now? If Israel disobeys God, will Israel fail as the OT ?
Jesus said that you should treat others as you want them to treat you. it must not a war but peace.
The big size of the Arab world, if the Israeli solve the problem of water resources, then ask the Palestinian to move should not be a problem,and help others fix the desert.............
 
P

PaulNew

Banned
#34
Feb 24, 2019
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#34
We cannot follow laws by the efforts of our own wills, so forget about laws.

We need to receive and be led by the Holy Spirit which we receive through belief in Jesus Christ, which is why Jesus tells His disciples that their WORK is to believe in Him...

Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”[John 6:29]

The whole law is fulfilled in this, that we love our neighbor as ourselves. (It is by doing this that we Love and Worship God)

In Corinthians 13 Paul says that no matter how many 'good works' he does, if he 'has not love' it profits him nothing.

Love is when kindness to those in need has actually become your joy, your drug, your addiction and your all. No longer serving 2 masters, but one.

Getting to this place is a process. It occurs in us to the degree that we eat the bread of life which is Jesus Christ, allow ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit, submit to God, resist the devil, and ENDURE.

But if in your heart you want to serve your own self-interest beyond your basic needs, then even if you instead serve God's will you are still like the prodigal son's brother who served his father out of duty but not out of love, and you are an adulteress lusting after the world in your heart.

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(Regarding the Bible, personally I would say the mount of transfiguration and Jesus cursing the fruitless fig-tree encourages me to keep my eyes on the gospels mostly and then the rest of the NT secondly. Until recently I would have said to throw the OT in the bin but God has just showed me that isn't right, so I would keep that in third place as study material. But study should be only a small part of your growth, and mostly it should be through intimate, uninterrupted quiet time with God and through being led by the Spirit to practice Jesus Christ which is to practice Love.)
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#35
Nov 24, 2012
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#35
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes. But if they were to live in peace. The mosaic covenant, even the punishment for disobedience (lev 26), was the guide.

The moral law is absolute. the rest are civil laws as imposed by God who wanted to be their king. I am sure he will still want them to keep these laws under his rule. he gave them for a reason.

again, I could be wrong. This is just how I see it brother
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Yes, the moral law is absolute. But they can't possibly keep the Mosaic law.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#36
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#36
soberxp said:
We can't repeat the old tune,
If God is on Israel's side, let Israel win since 1984. And how about now? If Israel disobeys God, will Israel fail as the OT ?
Jesus said that you should treat others as you want them to treat you. it must not a war but peace.
The big size of the Arab world, if the Israeli solve the problem of water resources, then ask the Palestinian to move should not be a problem,and help others fix the desert.............
Click to expand...
What same 'ol tune?
God's purposes are being worked out in Israel.
Go tell tell Hamas and Hezbollah what Jesus said about peace.
Israel has already disobeyed God in that she rejected her Messiah. (God will rectify that in the Tribulation).
Why should Israel be the Palestinian's babysitters? They are grown up.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#37
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#37
Shlomit said:
Hello.

I have recieved many mixed messages from Christians regarding the OT. One on hand, many argue that the dietary laws, practises such as circumcision and obeying the Sabbath do not need to be observed. Many other Christians argue homosexuality should not be practised on the basis that it is forbidden in the OT.

Would anyone like to offer some clarity?

Thank you
Click to expand...
We are to put on the armor of God and read scripture, not as a fleshly man, but as words coming from the Lord. The old testament is scripture. The Lord had a reason for telling us about fleshly circumcision, dietary laws, Sabbath. We are to look for that reason and learn from it, it is information given to us by our God.

God used the entire old testament to show us in literal terms the spiritual world. Christ fulfilled all of it. The temple is a description of us as the temple of God. In the inner room of the temple was the ark of the covenant, in our inner room, in our hearts, is the spirit of the Lord when we accept Him. The sacrificial system was a description of the blood Christ sacrificed for us, it symbolized His blood required for the forgiveness of sin.

There is a commentary of the first five books of the old testament done by Tom Bradford who lets us have it for free on the "torahclass.com" website that, verse by verse explains how Christ fulfilled it all. The old testament is scripture giving what Christ did for us and explaining the kingdom of God in concrete form. This is explained by the two covenants God has with us: one giving us His word in stone and one giving that word in our hearts.

We do not need to cut flesh as a sign of belonging to the Lord, as it was in stone, but we belong to the Lord in our hearts. We do not need to never eat food from animals who ate garbage to know not to feed our minds and hearts garbage, but we know in our hearts to keep our mind clean. Etc.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#38
#38
Shlomit said:
Sin is still sin.

A is A.

Who are 'the jews'?
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that's an interesting question

since 'Shlomit' (Hebrew: שלומית‎) is a village in Israel :unsure: :whistle:
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#40
Sep 23, 2014
7,149
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#40
Hmm, can it be said the the OT served us with sacrifices to God but the NT serves Christ with us as sacrifices to Him?

In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul differentiates the ministry of death/condemnation and the ministry of the Spirit/righteousness.

For example, the OT approaches the commandments as thou shalt not this, thou shalt not that and thou shalt the other....and leaves each individual to his own shalting or not shalting. Meanwhile, the NT comes from an all encompassing 'love God, love yourself, love your neighbor' and provides muuuch needed help in doing such.

The Glory of the New Covenant
(Exodus 34:10–35)

7Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! 10Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

However, if you click the available link to Exodus 34:10-35, you will see it take you to the context where "The LORD renews the Covenant" even for them, after new stone tablets were needed, after God reveals His Name, the LORD, with the promise of His Presence, and the 13 attributes of His mercy in 34 vv. 5-7.

So it would seem to me that the exact differentiation between the two, since Moses ministry was indeed glorious in that God Presence was with them but there was something more needed...

The New Covenant
(Jeremiah 31:26–40)

6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
because they did not abide by My covenant,
and I disregarded them,
declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant I will make
with the house of Israel
after those days,
declares the Lord.
I will put My laws in their minds
and inscribe them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”b
13By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

I believe this distinction is not only God's Presence with us, manifest in Christ, but also that which gives us (as a living sacrifice) to Him.
 
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