Torah Observant Christians.

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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It isn't funny at all that is wrong for you to criticize God for what you imagine God is doing. Your criticism is pathetic.
Blik you are the one who is saying that Torah is changed and that you can call yourself 'Torah observent' without actually observing it.

What is funny is that you are doing exactly the things you accuse me of even while you accuse.

I am not under Torah but the law of Christ. Torah isn't changed, not one jot or tittle is changed. You say it is. You say the jots and titles are erased and replaced.

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,873
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Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
Obsolete, not changed.
Torah is a picture of Jesus Christ. When you have the actual body of Him you aren't holding a shadow. The shadow does snt become Him - like a shadow being transformed into substance. The person is come, and now the shadows make a lot more sense that we know Who the person is. That doesn't make the shadow a body and it doesn't make the shadow unimportant or useless, but if you are observing Christ, you are not observing a re-defined shadow but observing the actual reality from which the shadows were cast.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

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Blik you are the one who is saying that Torah is changed and that you can call yourself 'Torah observent' without actually observing it.

What is funny is that you are doing exactly the things you accuse me of even while you accuse.

I am not under Torah but the law of Christ. Torah isn't changed, not one jot or tittle is changed. You say it is. You say the jots and titles are erased and replaced.

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
-------------------

What is the law of Yeshua? To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and might and to love that neighbor as thyself?

As for Hebrews 8:13, why don't you continue to read? The new covenant is not like the one that he made with their fathers, how was it different? He gave it to their fathers on tablets of stone (which is why it is old) and the new (not a replacement, still the same law) he stored them in the minds and written them in the hearts of both houses, the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Did you read the passage I sent you, the conversation the teacher of the law and Yeshua had?

Again, what is the law of Yeshua?

You pull out of context to fit your view, but according to the Scriptures your view is not what God made clear when he first spoke.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No one who knows scripture, or the Decalogue, believe animal sacrifice is a part of that.
Torah is a lot more than the first third of one chapter of Exodus. You said do yourself, remember? 5 books of Moses?

All I've done is point out that no one is Torah obsevant. You have substantiated that yourself. Apparently that strikes a nerve with some people who like to boast in 'keeping Torah'

smh
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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What is the law of Yeshua?
John 13:34-35
`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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info349479.wixsite.com
Obsolete, not changed.
Torah is a picture of Jesus Christ. When you have the actual body of Him you aren't holding a shadow. The shadow does snt become Him - like a shadow being transformed into substance. The person is come, and now the shadows make a lot more sense that we know Who the person is. That doesn't make the shadow a body and it doesn't make the shadow unimportant or useless, but if you are observing Christ, you are not observing a re-defined shadow but observing the actual reality from which the shadows were cast.
------------------------------

So, since you say the law is done away with my question to you, if you commit adultery what law did you break? Can't say adultery because you have not law. Not to mention, Yeshua elaborates on adultery, you lust after a woman and you committed adultery in your heart. If this is a true statement that Yeshua made and you will agree then you have to acknowledge that the Ten Commandments are not done away with. Right?
 

SUNDOWNSAM

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Dec 2, 2019
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John 13:34-35
`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
------------------

Isn't loving thy neighbor one of the Ten Commandments and if so, how did he obselete that commandment and reinstated it? What made the old old is that now he stores them in the minds and write them in the hearts.

It appears that what I previously sent you to look up you trashed. Remember that I said it appears, I am not being conclusive in my statement.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Can't say adultery because you have not law.
John 13:34-35
`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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when i say 'keeping Torah' i mean 'keeping Torah' not picking and choosing some parts of Torah to observe and others to discard.
i've been saying so. breaking any of Torah means you are not keeping Torah. that is where we disagree: you think you can break Torah and still consider yourself to keep it. you think Torah can be disassembled, much of it deleted, and still be called Torah. i do not believe this, and i do not believe the scripture speaks of it in this way. Moses says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 12:2. Jesus says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Matthew 5:18. James says keep all of it or be guilty of it, James 2:10. Paul says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Galatians 3:10. YHWH says keep all of it or be guilty of it, Deuteronomy 27:26.


you say the sacrifices are done away with; i agree.
can you point me to where the Bible says the sacrifices are done away with?

and in this place where i hope you will point me to, is the Bible talking about the whole covenant law or about deleting sections of it while pretending it is still whole?

I'm confused - are people talking about belief in Torah? Or Talmud? Or Mishnah?

I believe in the Torah as a Christian. I believe Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham and the fulfillment of the law (which isn't the Torah or the Talmud, its the Mishnah)

So what are we talking about?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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1 Corinthians 9:20-21
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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I'm confused - are people talking about belief in Torah? Or Talmud? Or Mishnah?

I believe in the Torah as a Christian. I believe Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham and the fulfillment of the law (which isn't the Torah or the Talmud, its the Mishnah)

So what are we talking about?
Well okay, technically it is the Talmud..
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,873
10,140
113
I'm confused - are people talking about belief in Torah? Or Talmud? Or Mishnah?

I believe in the Torah as a Christian. I believe Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham and the fulfillment of the law (which isn't the Torah or the Talmud, its the Mishnah)

So what are we talking about?
I just stopped by to comment on the title of the OP a few days ago ((posts #117 & 118)) and point out that there's no such thing as a Torah observent person, period, because Torah includes many things that are impossible to do without the temple and Levite priesthood.

I got attacked by 3 people who apparently are greatly offended by this truth. Not sure what they are talking about, they are changing the meaning of words and being a bit self-contradictory..?

Observing the law ((Torah: the first 5 books of the Bible, the books of Moses: not midrash/Talmud etc)) is not the same as "believing" them. I don't think anyone, at least not in this thread, is saying they don't believe the Torah. Some people seem to be insinuating that they don't believe the NT here, tho they won't come right out and say it.

Hard to tell really - they won't answer any of my questions.
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
190
181
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USA
I just stopped by to comment on the title of the OP a few days ago ((posts #117 & 118)) and point out that there's no such thing as a Torah observent person, period, because Torah includes many things that are impossible to do without the temple and Levite priesthood.

I got attacked by 3 people who apparently are greatly offended by this truth. Not sure what they are talking about, they are changing the meaning of words and being a bit self-contradictory..?

Observing the law ((Torah: the first 5 books of the Bible, the books of Moses: not midrash/Talmud etc)) is not the same as "believing" them. I don't think anyone, at least not in this thread, is saying they don't believe the Torah. Some people seem to be insinuating that they don't believe the NT here, tho they won't come right out and say it.

Hard to tell really - they won't answer any of my questions.

Oh okay.. makes sense thanks for the clarification.

We have a law, but it's the law of the Spirit instead of the law of the flesh, so there is still a morality the Spirit filled Christian should abide, but it's not law keeping, and it's made possible via the Spirit of Christ, and done in His Holy Spirit working through us, not done in our flesh.

So, I'll bow out politely I was confused with terminology.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
I'm confused - are people talking about belief in Torah? Or Talmud? Or Mishnah?

I believe in the Torah as a Christian. I believe Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham and the fulfillment of the law (which isn't the Torah or the Talmud, its the Mishnah)

So what are we talking about?
The Torah.
Many Christians make the mistake of thinking the Torah , the Old Testament, are irrelevant today. They admonish we are to be in the New Covenant, not the old. But that's a mistake. Often this idea arrives because one is speaking with someone who is a follower of what is called, Supersessionism or, "Replacement Theology". They assert that the chosen of God are no longer the Jews, but those who are Christian. Forgetting that the first "Christians" were mostly Jews. It is a form of Antisemitism in arguing that the New Covenant through the blood sacrifice of Jesus supersedes the Old Covenant and because that was a covenant made exclusively for the Jewish people.

Our church was founded on the day of Pentecost. Which according to the Jewish calendar is the holy day of Shauv’ot.


You might find this useful.Torah Awareness -Why Christians Should Study Torah
https://hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Torah-Aware/torah-aware.html

"...The "Church" was born on a Jewish holiday of Shauv’ot (Pentecost) among the Jewish people in Jerusalem. Peter's sermon during that festival (Acts 2:1-41) was entirely Jewish, copiously quoting from the prophets and David, which would have meant little to any Gentiles in earshot (if there were any). It is likely, therefore, that the 3,000 people who were saved that day would have been all Jewish. The earliest members of the new church met regularly in the Temple, where Gentiles were explicitly excluded (Acts 2:46). Note that the apostles Peter and John are recorded to have gone to the Temple for prayer during the time of the minchah (afternoon) sacrifices (Acts 3:1), and their ministry continued exclusively among the Jewish people, "among whom were thousands who believed and were zealous for the Torah" (Acts 21:20). Even after they were imprisoned but miraculously escaped, an angel told them to "Go, stand and speak in the Temple to the people all the words of this life" (Acts 5:20). "
 

Hazelelponi

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
190
181
43
USA
The Torah.
Many Christians make the mistake of thinking the Torah , the Old Testament, are irrelevant today. They admonish we are to be in the New Covenant, not the old. But that's a mistake. Often this idea arrives because one is speaking with someone who is a follower of what is called, Supersessionism or, "Replacement Theology". They assert that the chosen of God are no longer the Jews, but those who are Christian. Forgetting that the first "Christians" were mostly Jews. It is a form of Antisemitism in arguing that the New Covenant through the blood sacrifice of Jesus supersedes the Old Covenant and because that was a covenant made exclusively for the Jewish people.

Our church was founded on the day of Pentecost. Which according to the Jewish calendar is the holy day of Shauv’ot.


You might find this useful.Torah Awareness -Why Christians Should Study Torah
https://hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Torah-Aware/torah-aware.html

"...The "Church" was born on a Jewish holiday of Shauv’ot (Pentecost) among the Jewish people in Jerusalem. Peter's sermon during that festival (Acts 2:1-41) was entirely Jewish, copiously quoting from the prophets and David, which would have meant little to any Gentiles in earshot (if there were any). It is likely, therefore, that the 3,000 people who were saved that day would have been all Jewish. The earliest members of the new church met regularly in the Temple, where Gentiles were explicitly excluded (Acts 2:46). Note that the apostles Peter and John are recorded to have gone to the Temple for prayer during the time of the minchah (afternoon) sacrifices (Acts 3:1), and their ministry continued exclusively among the Jewish people, "among whom were thousands who believed and were zealous for the Torah" (Acts 21:20). Even after they were imprisoned but miraculously escaped, an angel told them to "Go, stand and speak in the Temple to the people all the words of this life" (Acts 5:20). "

I believe in covanent theology so I guess you would label me "antisemitic"...

Dispensationalism is my definition of unbiblical theology.

so we will leave it at that since I don't need others telling me what I am or am not. I have the Holy Spirit who can do that far better and more truthfully.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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info349479.wixsite.com
John 13:34-35
`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.'

Hebrews 8:13
in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
---------------------

Have you read what I previously sent you? If so, please respond.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
525
79
28
info349479.wixsite.com
1 Corinthians 9:20-21
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
-------------------------

What does that have to do with what we are talking about? But I will answer you...

- To the jews I became a Jew, wasn't he a Jew already?
- To those under the law I becames "AS ONE" under the law (he is referring to the works of the law, because he himself state to we do away the law and responded to his own question, God forbid.
- To those outside the law "AS ONE" outside the law, meaning he had the law, but understood that two laws fulfilled the law of God, just like the teacher of the law new that those two law fulfilled the Ten Commandments and Yeshua said thou readest well, do this and you shall live.

Paul did not dismiss the law, he understand how the law would be fulfill which is why he say, walk after the Spirit and the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,229
113
www.christiancourier.com
I believe in covanent theology so I guess you would label me "antisemitic"...

Dispensationalism is my definition of unbiblical theology.

so we will leave it at that since I don't need others telling me what I am or am not. I have the Holy Spirit who can do that far better and more truthfully.
My post does not implicate or indict you personally. There is no need for your defensive posture here. We have enough of those as it is. Maybe you should actually read what I wrote and then you wouldn't go on the offensive thinking it just. Also, you might study more.

Covenant Theology - What is it?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,873
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What does that have to do with what we are talking about?
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 proves definitively false the pharisaical charges against Paul of being 'lawless' because he, having died with Christ, affirmed that he is not under the law of the Sinai covenant. the charges you repeated against me for saying the same thing written in the epistle to the Romans.
it proves that there is a law of God above that law given through Moses; that it cannot be assumed that '
God's law' = Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy. yes, God gave it; yes, it is perfect. and it was perfectly given to a people who were proven unfaithful in Exodus 16 -- again explained in Isaiah 28: precept upon precept so that they may fall backward, be broken, and ensnared. if we had wisdom, we would have seen it in Genesis 16. if we lacked it, this is revealed for us in Galatians 4. if we are not too stiff-necked and vain to believe.

course, John 13:34 already proved that, and in case we were too slow to understand, Hebrews 8:13 illuminated it for us. so now you have 3 witnesses in scripture testifying of this to you. 1 Timothy 1:9 is another. how many do we require?