Torah Observant Christians.

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Excellent post! We have seen our fair share of people from the Torah observant movement over the years on Christian Chat who "claim" they "keep torah" but not for salvation purposes, yet certainly present an attitude of superiority over Christians who are not of the Torah observant movement.

Tragically, we have also seen our fair share of people from the Torah observant movement on Christian Chat over the years whose theology culminates in salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" which certainly is "another gospel" that does not save.

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Since you have responded to TooFastTrutle post as being excellent, my question to you... What do you mean by Torah and I am asking this question because it appears that many Gentile believers do not really understand what they are talking about when they say Torah, please respond?

 

[Think4Myself]

Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

People say there isnt a command to keep Torah in the Bible, but if they exam Acts 15:20-21, one can infer that to have fellowship with Judah we must keep 4 basic commands, then we learn the rest and grow slowly. Thats why the scripture says in verse 21, "for Moses is taught in the synogauges on Sabbath". Theres no dead letters in the Bible and James, Jesus brother, wasnt speaking idle words, he was implying we learn Torah.

I have a testimony, that Yah confirmed this in my life. The best I can ask anyone is to ask and receive, seek and find.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

People say there isnt a command to keep Torah in the Bible, but if they exam Acts 15:20-21, one can infer that to have fellowship with Judah we must keep 4 basic commands, then we learn the rest and grow slowly. Thats why the scripture says in verse 21, "for Moses is taught in the synogauges on Sabbath". Theres no dead letters in the Bible and James, Jesus brother, wasnt speaking idle words, he was implying we learn Torah.

I have a testimony, that Yah confirmed this in my life. The best I can ask anyone is to ask and receive, seek and find.

I think you are misunderstanding what we are trying to day

The question is can we keep the law

The other question is how (by following the law or by following something else)

The law says do not commit adultry

It does not say how to keep this command

Or give us every possible means which we can break this law

The problem we can never sleep physically with another person. Thus by defenition if law have not broken the law. And convince ourselves we have kept that command
yet as Jesus said. Still be guilt if breaking that command

This is why trying to follow the law to obey is not very smart. This is what the Pharisees thought.

There must then be another way. Sin is still sin. Our goal is to learn how to break the cycle of sin. And the answer is not by following the law

 

[Think4Myself]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus tells us plainly here, he didnt come to abloish but fulfil. He doesnt mean that in some circular reasoning manner, whereby, he abolishes the law by fulfilling it.
He contiues, "whosever therefore", wonder what the therefore is there for? The one that keeps and teaches the commands will be considered great in heaven, the one who doesnt will have no honor, as per Jesus' own words.

We know Jesus fufilled the law by fufilling Passover, and keeping the commands also. In fact, the Torah teaches a prophet that leads us away from the commands is a false prophet also. Id submit, Jesus came according to the fundamentals he, Himself, laid out as parameters for testing who is truly a prophets, and even the Prophet Moses spoke of, id submit as well.

 

[Think4Myself]

Anyway, im through with this conversation, peace, shalom

"...And they over came by the their testimony and the blood of the Lamb", as its written, albiet, not necessarily verbatim.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus tells us plainly here, he didnt come to abloish but fulfil. He doesnt mean that in some circular reasoning manner, whereby, he abolishes the law by fulfilling it.
He contiues, "whosever therefore", wonder what the therefore is there for? The one that keeps and teaches the commands will be considered great in heaven, the one who doesnt will have no honor, as per Jesus' own words.

We know Jesus fufilled the law by fufilling Passover, and keeping the commands also. In fact, the Torah teaches a prophet that leads us away from the commands is a false prophet also. Id submit, Jesus came according to the fundamentals he, Himself, laid out as parameters for testing who is truly a prophets, and even the Prophet Moses spoke of, id submit as well.

Jesus did fulfill the law
and as long as there are people who have not found Christ the tutor will continue

When we come to Christ the law is fullfiled in us

Now we have a new and better way to relate to god. The law of love

Seek after the things of the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust if the fire (break the law)

Love God with perfect love and love all men with the same perfect love. Do this and you will not break the law

The problem with us is we do not love perfectly or every minute of every day and do not always seek after the spirit. Thus the fact remains. Because of this truth we still do not keep the law as required

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyway, im through with this conversation, peace, shalom

"...And they over came by the their testimony and the blood of the Lamb", as its written, albiet, not necessarily verbatim.

Amen we did overcome by the blood.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

People say there isnt a command to keep Torah in the Bible, but if they exam Acts 15:20-21, one can infer that to have fellowship with Judah we must keep 4 basic commands, then we learn the rest and grow slowly. Thats why the scripture says in verse 21, "for Moses is taught in the synogauges on Sabbath". Theres no dead letters in the Bible and James, Jesus brother, wasnt speaking idle words, he was implying we learn Torah.

I have a testimony, that Yah confirmed this in my life. The best I can ask anyone is to ask and receive, seek and find.

--------------------

You are correct that the Gentiles who turned to God should not be trouble, nor be burden with the law as long as they abstain from four things, it is not the other way around. The problem is that the Gentile believers want to tell the Jewish believers that they are wrong in keeping the law, meanwhile they really do not know what a Jewish believer believe and I am not talking about groups like the Hebrews root movement who appear more like a cult. As a Jew, I am obedient to the law of God and I am referring to the Ten Commandment and not the sacrifices, Yeshua did it once and for all. The law has nothing to do with the salvation, nor does it make one God's righteousness, but many Gentile believers assume they know it all and start making accusations through their assumptions that Jewish believers believe that salvation comes by believing and keeping the law as if working.

Paul said to them it was find with the Holy Spirit for four things, but Gentile believers of old learned the truth of God's word and started keeping the sabbath. Men like constantine came along separated the Gentiles from the Jews by removing the Sabbath and in the bible times Rome were persecution Jewish believers. Why? They wanted nothing to do with the Jews and that is what is going on in nowadays, Gentile believers want nothing to do with Jews.

 

[Think4Myself]

I love Jews! Im not Hebrew Roots, but a Torah observent follower of Messiah.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Acts 15:19-21
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

People say there isnt a command to keep Torah in the Bible, but if they exam Acts 15:20-21, one can infer that to have fellowship with Judah we must keep 4 basic commands, then we learn the rest and grow slowly. Thats why the scripture says in verse 21, "for Moses is taught in the synogauges on Sabbath". Theres no dead letters in the Bible and James, Jesus brother, wasnt speaking idle words, he was implying we learn Torah.

I have a testimony, that Yah confirmed this in my life. The best I can ask anyone is to ask and receive, seek and find.

---------------------------------------

Another thing, I can see that you put the law of God in it's right perspective, slowly they will learn. We are not saying that we are save by the law, we are just obedient to the law of God, but they take it to mean that one is working for salvation. I tell them to read the story when the teacher of the law approached Yeshua and in the conversation Yeshua asked him how readest though the law and the teacher of the law responded with to laws, love God and love thy neighbor, Yeshua said thou said well do it. The teacher of the law under that the Ten Commandment was in to parts, which is why the two commandments (love God, Love they neighbor) were in the old testament. The Spirit of God enlightened my mind with this truth what God made clear when he first spoke.

In addition, you are correct they were reading and teaching the Torah, the Epistle came later and they were letters of corrections, reflecting a lot of the Old Testament as well.

 

[Hazelelponi]

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You are correct that the Gentiles who turned to God should not be trouble, nor be burden with the law as long as they abstain from four things, it is not the other way around. The problem is that the Gentile believers want to tell the Jewish believers that they are wrong in keeping the law, meanwhile they really do not know what a Jewish believer believe and I am not talking about groups like the Hebrews root movement who appear more like a cult. As a Jew, I am obedient to the law of God and I am referring to the Ten Commandment and not the sacrifices, Yeshua did it once and for all. The law has nothing to do with the salvation, nor does it make one God's righteousness, but many Gentile believers assume they know it all and start making accusations through their assumptions that Jewish believers believe that salvation comes by believing and keeping the law as if working.

Paul said to them it was find with the Holy Spirit for four things, but Gentile believers of old learned the truth of God's word and started keeping the sabbath. Men like constantine came along separated the Gentiles from the Jews by removing the Sabbath and in the bible times Rome were persecution Jewish believers. Why? They wanted nothing to do with the Jews and that is what is going on in nowadays, Gentile believers want nothing to do with Jews.

I don't think it's that at all..

It's more a matter of at what point are you just law keeping..

We have a responsibility to the covenant, in my faith which may or may not be slightly different than others.

Through the Spirit we keep the law more fully, yet it can never be said we keep it perfectly.. Just the love God with all your heart, soul and mind is near impossible alone.

We can move to law more strictly, but when we do are we beginning to trust in our works more than in God?

There's a line that must be found for every individual I think, a place where we have to say we aren't walking in the Spirit anymore..

Certainly it's individual I think, where we feel we are truly living a life for Christ, and sometimes it's difficult to find the right place perhaps.

The disciples and apostles did say that if we are saved, and then go back to law keeping we are lost.. so I think we have to find the place where we know we aren't crossing away from salvation.

That's all, it's just my thoughts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I love Jews! Im not Hebrew Roots, but a Torah observent follower of Messiah.

How do you follow the Torah? Do you also take you sacrifice to the priest?

 

[OneOfHis]

God specifically delivered me from any desire to follow jewish traditions or law. He would take no pleasure in me wearing a tzitzit or yarmulke. He would not appreciate an additional sacrifice. These sort of things won't glorify Him or edify in any way.

I am observant of Gods written inspired scriptures and I am a born again son of God.

(though if someone else is scared of eating bacon, I'd leave them be and just be honest about what scripture says when questioned about the fact I can wear mixed fabrics and eat any animal God provided)

The discussion I started with regards to “Tithing” was interesting to say the least. This brings me to another topic I would like to hear from people on. Torah observant Christians. Of course there plenty of scripture in the NT contrary to this brief, but I would certainly like to heard others views on the subject. Enjoy!

View attachment 209824

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I love Jews! Im not Hebrew Roots, but a Torah observent follower of Messiah.

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I do not follow the Hebrews root movements because they appear to be a cult (I think they are) and I do not say I am messianics because some of them appear to make the law part of salvations. I consider myself a follower, but lean more to christianity because my relationship is not with the law, it is with God in Yeshua, it is about a walk in God's righteousness, not about being spiritual, but about walking right before God that would be our evidence that we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law.

 

[Grandpa]

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I do not follow the Hebrews root movements because they appear to be a cult (I think they are) and I do not say I am messianics because some of them appear to make the law part of salvations. I consider myself a follower, but lean more to christianity because my relationship is not with the law, it is with God in Yeshua, it is about a walk in God's righteousness, not about being spiritual, but about walking right before God that would be our evidence that we are made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law.

So what do you do with this?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

I don't think it's that at all..

It's more a matter of at what point are you just law keeping..

We have a responsibility to the covenant, in my faith which may or may not be slightly different than others.

Through the Spirit we keep the law more fully, yet it can never be said we keep it perfectly.. Just the love God with all your heart, soul and mind is near impossible alone.

We can move to law more strictly, but when we do are we beginning to trust in our works more than in God?

There's a line that must be found for every individual I think, a place where we have to say we aren't walking in the Spirit anymore..

Certainly it's individual I think, where we feel we are truly living a life for Christ, and sometimes it's difficult to find the right place perhaps.

The disciples and apostles did say that if we are saved, and then go back to law keeping we are lost.. so I think we have to find the place where we know we aren't crossing away from salvation.

That's all, it's just my thoughts.

---------------------

Exactly, as I stated to many that the Scriptures tell us if we walk after the Spirit the Spirit will fulfill the righteousness of the law. So, I do not walk around saying you need to keep the law, one needs to seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and let the Spirit of God do what he will do, fulfill the righteousness of the law. My relationship is not with the law, it is with God in Yeshua.

I been telling everyone the same, it is about walking after the Spirit, it is about having a relationship God in Yeshua as I previously stated, but Gentile believers tend to attack even when I tell them that relationship is not with the law, but with God in Yeshua.

You are correct on your last statement, but they assume that if one is obedient to the law of God they are going back to the law, even if you tell them that you are saved by the grace of God through faith alone, made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

So what do you do with th is?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

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Grandpa, I explained that to you several time in the past, I need to stop repeating myself to you. If I tell you I am saved by grace, justified by faith in Yeshua, made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law, but obedient to the law of God, where do you see works there? Please read carefully.

Having heard from you in a while, nice to know you are okay.

 

[OneOfHis]

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Grandpa, I explained that to you several time in the past, I need to stop repeating myself to you. If I tell you I am saved by grace, justified by faith in Yeshua, made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law, but obedient to the law of God, where do you see works there? Please read carefully.

Having heard from you in a while, nice to know you are okay.

Quick question...
Are you aware of the absolute fact that Jesus Christ is God?

 

[Grandpa]

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Grandpa, I explained that to you several time in the past, I need to stop repeating myself to you. If I tell you I am saved by grace, justified by faith in Yeshua, made God's righteousness in Yeshua apart from the law, but obedient to the law of God, where do you see works there? Please read carefully.

Having heard from you in a while, nice to know you are okay.

Obedient to the law of God.

Which Law of God exactly?

And how is it NOT works of the law?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Quick question...
Are you aware of the absolute fact that Jesus Christ is God?

---------------------------

It do not like to use the word trinity because it gives the impression of a polytheistic view of God if not explain correctly. Yeshus was brought forth according the Scriptures, therefore, he is of the essence of the one who brought him forth, there he is God the Son and that is what the Pharisee understood when he said he was the son of God. I think I answer the question, but I will give you a visual example, put up three fingers, that is the one God. The Father sits on the Throne, do Son sits at his right hand and the Spirit of God is here teaching and directing up in the path for righteousness.

Did I answer your question or is that a question to say, so if Yeshua is God then Yeshua said and you will follow with something.