"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[MacBestus]

MacBestus: Thanks for sharing Eliyah's teaching on it. I'm quite familiar with his writings. But for many of us who are short on time, it would be best to distill those previous posts into a few bullet points and then we can go back and read the full details later. Perhaps starting by answering the questions posed at the beginning of the first post and adding other brief points you think are important? I know -- I'm long-winded myself, so I even have to remind myself the effectiveness of brevity at times.

Lol. I agree. If not for my time crunch today I would have. However since this is in response to a comment that just said "Galatians 3" i took a page out of grace 777x70s book and posted in a shortened version of his Galations 3.

I reckon those who are interested in learning or sussing out the truthas bereans will read or skim it and get something out of it. And those who are only interested in their own position wouldn't read it long or short.

As g777x70 said in the other thread. I just want to make sure this is all recorded in the thread.

But thank you for keeping me in check. I am long winded for a fact.

 

[MacBestus]

what does the law say about offering sacrifices while traveling? I don't know.

I thought that yes, the Israelites were supposed to live near Jerusalem

DEUTERONOMY 16:16 Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.


I thought that when the Israelites were in the 70 year captivity, they couldn't keep Torah... that was part of the bummer...

between Moses and 70 ad, was there a time with no tent/temple other than the captivity?


but what does the law say about times with no temple? I can't think of anything

Dueteronomy 14:22 “You shall tithe without fail all the yield of your grain that the field brings forth year by year.

23 “And you shall eat before יהוה your Elohim, in the place where He chooses to make His Name dwell, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, and of the firstlings of your herds and your sheep, so that you learn to fear יהוה your Elohim always.

24 “But when the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to bring the tithe, or when the place where יהוה your Elohim chooses to put His Name is too far from you, when יהוה your Elohim is blessing you,

25 then you shall give it in silver, and shall take the silver in your hand and go to the place which יהוה your Elohim chooses.

26 “And you shall use the silver for whatever your being desires: for cattle or sheep, for wine or strong drink, for whatever your being desires. And you shall eat there before יהוה your Elohim, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

27 “And do not forsake the Lĕwite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

28 “At the end of every third year you bring out all the tithe of your increase of that year and store it up within your gates.

We are to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for festivals. If we cannot make it. Once every three years will do. If for some reason that cannot be done. If your destitute or in bondage. Our Father offers grace.

 

[Dan_473]

Dueteronomy 14:22 “You shall tithe without fail all the yield of your grain that the field brings forth year by year.

23 “And you shall eat before יהוה your Elohim, in the place where He chooses to make His Name dwell, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, and of the firstlings of your herds and your sheep, so that you learn to fear יהוה your Elohim always.

24 “But when the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to bring the tithe, or when the place where יהוה your Elohim chooses to put His Name is too far from you, when יהוה your Elohim is blessing you,

25 then you shall give it in silver, and shall take the silver in your hand and go to the place which יהוה your Elohim chooses.

26 “And you shall use the silver for whatever your being desires: for cattle or sheep, for wine or strong drink, for whatever your being desires. And you shall eat there before יהוה your Elohim, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

27 “And do not forsake the Lĕwite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

28 “At the end of every third year you bring out all the tithe of your increase of that year and store it up within your gates.

We are to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for festivals. If we cannot make it. Once every three years will do. If for some reason that cannot be done. If your destitute or in bondage. Our Father offers grace.

it looks to me like the passage is about tithing.

you may turn your tithe into silver and
'go to the place which יהוה your Elohim chooses.'



' We are to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for festivals. If we cannot make it. Once every three years will do.'

I haven't read this...
which part of Torah are you looking at?

 

[Blik]

Galatians 3

There is absolutely nothing in this chapter about not obeying the Lord! Because God saves us through grace is a fact that does not tell us not to serve the Lord. Because people were given physical things to do o lead them to obedience of God's ways and now we are given the Holy Spirit to be our schoolmaster, or leader guidance, does not mean we are not to listen to God.

When people speak against the rites given by the Lord like circumcision and food laws that were meant as guidance, and still refuse to be guided by the Hold Spirit they are in error. It is not against the principles of the Lord to eat meat from animals who eat garbage for that meat goes through us. The diet restriction were to act as guides to what goes in the mind. If you receive the Holy Spirit to guide them to keep what goes in the mind clean because what is deposited there stays there and still go to dirty movies and read dirty books they are in more error than those who do this after the guidance of obeying the rites.

 

[sparty-g]

The reason God gave the Jews those strict dietary restrictions was so they wouldn't mix socially with Gentiles. In those times the main means of social activity was banquet feasts. It was their primary source of entertainment and for developing relationships. So those dietary laws served Gods purpose in keeping the Jew and Gentile separate.


"You are therefore to make a distinction between the [ceremonially] clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that crawls on the ground, which I have set apart from you as unclean. You are to be holy to Me; for I the Lord am holy, and have set you apart from the peoples (nations) to be Mine.“ Leviticus 20:25-26

It's an interesting argument that you're poised to set up: The dietary commands were intended to keep the Israelites and the nations from socially mixing, but now God does not want them separated, thus the dietary commands no longer have a function. I dispute that narrow of an understanding and the argumentative logic that follows it.

The purpose of the dietary restrictions doesn't appear to be to keep them from socially mixing. They appear to be about emulating God in His holiness -- to be holy as He is holy. Consider the following verses in sections dealing with dietary commands:

I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. -- Lev. 11:44a (NIV)

I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy. -- Lev. 11:45 (NIV)

Even the verses you've shared, Lev. 20:25-26, say the same thing: We are to be holy because He is holy. Perhaps the emulation of God's holiness is related to the fact that unclean animals are not fit for sacrifice to God, so likewise they are not fit for human consumption. This idea becomes more pointed when you consider that unclean animals were unfit for the physical Temple where God's Spirit resided, and that our bodies are considered the Temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).

But it's because of holiness, not specifically the dietary commands but dedication to the LORD in general, that the Israelites were set apart from the nations to be His. Earlier in the same chapter, the LORD says:

Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy. -- Lev. 20:7-8 (NIV)

So you see, that which made them holy (or in other words, set apart from the nations, since the Hebrew word for holy just means set apart [to the LORD]) is their dedication to the LORD and His ways -- to emulate the LORD; to be Holy as He is holy. And this set-apartness from the nations doesn't just come as a result of keeping the dietary commands, but essentially in following the LORD's voice in all of His ways. Lev. 20 includes lists of several other sins, including idolatry, paganism, and sexual immorality, by which avoiding they would be set apart from the nations as holy to the LORD.

There is a lot to read in the OT about holiness and set-apartness. And the NT writings continue the call to holiness: 2 Cor. 7:1, 1 Thes. 4:7, 2 Tim. 2:21, Heb. 12:14, 1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 Peter 2:9, et. al. There is also a lot to be said about the nation of Israelite purposed with being a light to the nations, through which the nations would be blessed, not a nation completely cloistered off from them. But maybe that's a discussion for another day...

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul says here that he is convinced "in the Lord Jesus" that no food is unclean. The law is a "shadow" of things - Christ Himself is the real substance.

Until we understand that truth we will be forever talking about the law and what to do about it. Christians have died to the law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the law - because we are in Christ.



Those that have been taught religiously and falsely that we are under the law of Moses will have a weaker conscience because of a lack of understanding of Christ and the new creation that is in Christ now.

Romans 14:14-17 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:18-23 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Mark 7:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And He ( Jesus ) *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

 

[FreeNChrist]

There is absolutely nothing in this chapter about not obeying the Lord! Because God saves us through grace is a fact that does not tell us not to serve the Lord. Because people were given physical things to do o lead them to obedience of God's ways and now we are given the Holy Spirit to be our schoolmaster, or leader guidance, does not mean we are not to listen to God.

When people speak against the rites given by the Lord like circumcision and food laws that were meant as guidance, and still refuse to be guided by the Hold Spirit they are in error. It is not against the principles of the Lord to eat meat from animals who eat garbage for that meat goes through us. The diet restriction were to act as guides to what goes in the mind. If you receive the Holy Spirit to guide them to keep what goes in the mind clean because what is deposited there stays there and still go to dirty movies and read dirty books they are in more error than those who do this after the guidance of obeying the rites.

Ummm, you're premise was that the Law was given at creation. But Galatians 3 clearly tells us that the Law was "added" at a much later time. And not at all for the reasons you gave. The Law clearly had a beginning, but it was not at creation, it was 430 years after the Abrahamic promise.

That it was "added" marks when the Law began, just as "until" marks when it ended. It came into being at a certain point in history and was in effect "until" the promised Seed, Christ, came.

 

[Grace777x70]

Have we ever read where Jesus said that the priests who stand in the temple - break the Sabbath which is in the Law?...or that David and his men ate of the bread which was in the temple?

Matthew 12:2-6 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

[SUP]3 [/SUP] But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

[SUP]4 [/SUP] how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Why were the priest not breaking the Sabbath law - because they were in the temple. Why did David be able to eat of the bread? Because he was in the temple.

This is why the true believer in Christ will not be breaking any Sabbath law because we are in the temple. Know you not that you are the temple of God?

Those that are in the temple are not breaking the Sabbath law by doing work because we are in Christ. He is the true temple of God as we are in union with Him and are one in the spirit.

Until we understand the reality of our union with Christ and what that means - we will be resorting to going back to the Law and trying to live by our own flesh and we are exchanging the law for Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's an interesting argument that you're poised to set up: The dietary commands were intended to keep the Israelites and the nations from socially mixing, but now God does not want them separated, thus the dietary commands no longer have a function. I dispute that narrow of an understanding and the argumentative logic that follows it.

The purpose of the dietary restrictions doesn't appear to be to keep them from socially mixing. They appear to be about emulating God in His holiness -- to be holy as He is holy. Consider the following verses in sections dealing with dietary commands:

I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. -- Lev. 11:44a (NIV)

I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy. -- Lev. 11:45 (NIV)

Even the verses you've shared, Lev. 20:25-26, say the same thing: We are to be holy because He is holy. Perhaps the emulation of God's holiness is related to the fact that unclean animals are not fit for sacrifice to God, so likewise they are not fit for human consumption. This idea becomes more pointed when you consider that unclean animals were unfit for the physical Temple where God's Spirit resided, and that our bodies are considered the Temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).

But it's because of holiness, not specifically the dietary commands but dedication to the LORD in general, that the Israelites were set apart from the nations to be His. Earlier in the same chapter, the LORD says:

Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy. -- Lev. 20:7-8 (NIV)

So you see, that which made them holy (or in other words, set apart from the nations, since the Hebrew word for holy just means set apart [to the LORD]) is their dedication to the LORD and His ways -- to emulate the LORD; to be Holy as He is holy. And this set-apartness from the nations doesn't just come as a result of keeping the dietary commands, but essentially in following the LORD's voice in all of His ways. Lev. 20 includes lists of several other sins, including idolatry, paganism, and sexual immorality, by which avoiding they would be set apart from the nations as holy to the LORD.

There is a lot to read in the OT about holiness and set-apartness. And the NT writings continue the call to holiness: 2 Cor. 7:1, 1 Thes. 4:7, 2 Tim. 2:21, Heb. 12:14, 1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 Peter 2:9, et. al. There is also a lot to be said about the nation of Israelite purposed with being a light to the nations, through which the nations would be blessed, not a nation completely cloistered off from them. But maybe that's a discussion for another day...

Well, it's not my argument, it is clear historical and scriptural truth. But as long as you are looking at the Bible with old covenant eyes you will be unable to see it. The only solution to that is Jesus. Only in Him is that veil removed (2 Cor. 3:26).

 

[sparty-g]

Well, it's not my argument, it is clear historical and scriptural truth. But as long as you are looking at the Bible with old covenant eyes you will be unable to see it. The only solution to that is Jesus. Only in Him is that veil removed (2 Cor. 3:26).

I have shown you where I believe your argument doesn't measure up Scripturally. I agree with you that the Torah-Law never says the dietary commands are for health/nutrition reasons, but it also never says they are for social distancing -- it says it is because they are called to be holy as God is holy. You want to use the phrase "I have set you apart from the nations to be my own" (Lev. 20:26b), just because it comes after a summary of the dietary commands (Lev. 20:25), to create an artificial list of "social distancing" commands (which probably includes other commands that you arbitrarily assign to this list).

The argument fails for two simple reasons:

1. As I said earlier, following YHWH alone set the Israelites apart from the nations. Every Torah-Law command is predicated on the idea that He would be their God and they His people, which set them apart from the other nations who were not in covenantal relationship with Him but instead chased after false gods. So, not only were they set apart by their diet, and by their keeping of His appointed times (feasts/festivals), etc. etc, but also by not consulting sorcerers or mediums, and by not sacrificing their children, and by not prostituting themselves, etc. etc. -- and none of these anyone would argue is alright for Christians in the New Covenant period.

2. The Scriptures demonstrate that Israel was not meant to be a cloistered nation with no social contact with the rest of the world, but was supposed to be a light to the world, and was supposed to draw in people from the nations to come to know the LORD and follow His ways. Just read what Solomon prayed when he was dedicating the Temple: As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name (1 Kings 8:41-43, NIV)

The historical social distancing you mention doesn't mean that was God's intention (read point 2 above). We see this in Acts 10:28 when Peter visits the house of Cornelius and says to him, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." But this wasn't against the Torah-Law, for there is no command not to associate with or visit a non-Jew. By the time of Messiah, like many other man-made traditions and rules, the social distancing between Jew and non-Jew had become a cultural norm -- it was considered taboo for a Jew to associate with a non-Jew in many ways. Read the Talmud -- you'll find some Rabbinical commands intended to create social distancing, though even in there you won't find consensus on the matter. The Greek there in Acts 10:28 even attests to this, for it uses athemiton, which isn't the typical word for unlawful in the sense of violating Torah-Law or God's will, but in the sense of breaking a social taboo. Just because something happens historically, doesn't mean it was God's will -- the Scriptures are full of examples of man's mistakes that go counter to God's will.

 

[sparty-g]

The purpose of the dietary restrictions doesn't appear to be to keep them from socially mixing. They appear to be about emulating God in His holiness -- to be holy as He is holy.

...

Perhaps the emulation of God's holiness is related to the fact that unclean animals are not fit for sacrifice to God, so likewise they are not fit for human consumption. This idea becomes more pointed when you consider that unclean animals were unfit for the physical Temple where God's Spirit resided, and that our bodies are considered the Temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).

I had a follow-on thought about the call to the Israelites to emulate the LORD in His holiness -- to be holy as the LORD is holy, in all the ways that He commanded them to follow Him. Inasmuch as the Israelites were listening to the LORD's voice and obeying Him in all the ways that He commanded, they were ultimately emulating the Messiah, who would later come and walk according to those same commands in perfect obedience.

We are likewise called to be imitators of Him (1 Cor. 11:1) and live as He lived (1 John 2:6).

 

[Dan_473]

Ummm, you're premise was that the Law was given at creation. But Galatians 3 clearly tells us that the Law was "added" at a much later time. And not at all for the reasons you gave. The Law clearly had a beginning, but it was not at creation, it was 430 years after the Abrahamic promise.

That it was "added" marks when the Law began, just as "until" marks when it ended. It came into being at a certain point in history and was in effect "until" the promised Seed, Christ, came.

the Added and Until...

I hadn't seen that before.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by FreeNChrist

Ummm, you're premise was that the Law was given at creation. But Galatians 3 clearly tells us that the Law was "added" at a much later time. And not at all for the reasons you gave. The Law clearly had a beginning, but it was not at creation, it was 430 years after the Abrahamic promise.

That it was "added" marks when the Law began, just as "until" marks when it ended. It came into being at a certain point in history and was in effect "until" the promised Seed, Christ, came.

the Added and Until...

I hadn't seen that before.

The law of Moses is an Old Covenant that is obsolete and completely replaced by the New Covenant.

Luke 16:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 11:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Matthew 11:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

In Hebrews - the writer talks about how in the past God spoke to the Jewish forefathers in many ways but in these last days has spoken to us through His Son. Notice the "after" He had spoken - He now speaks through Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2[/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Galatians 3:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The seed is Christ Himself. The Christian has died to the law of Moses, been released from the law of Moses and is not under the law of Moses but under Christ alone which is grace.

"The just shall live by faith" - not by following the law of Moses - the law is NOT of faith.

The extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots movement are trying to get people to desert Christ by following the law of Moses. It is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

Trying to get Christians to not eat certain foods is one of the signs of the last days falling away from the faith - faith in Christ's completed work.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Dan_473]

Originally Posted by FreeNChrist

Ummm, you're premise was that the Law was given at creation. But Galatians 3 clearly tells us that the Law was "added" at a much later time. And not at all for the reasons you gave. The Law clearly had a beginning, but it was not at creation, it was 430 years after the Abrahamic promise.

That it was "added" marks when the Law began, just as "until" marks when it ended. It came into being at a certain point in history and was in effect "until" the promised Seed, Christ, came.




The law of Moses is an Old Covenant that is obsolete and completely replaced by the New Covenant.

Luke 16:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 11:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Matthew 11:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

In Hebrews - the writer talks about how in the past God spoke to the Jewish forefathers in many ways but in these last days has spoken to us through His Son. Notice the "after" He had spoken - He now speaks through Christ.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2[/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Galatians 3:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The seed is Christ Himself. The Christian has died to the law of Moses, been released from the law of Moses and is not under the law of Moses but under Christ alone which is grace.

"The just shall live by faith" - not by following the law of Moses - the law is NOT of faith.

The extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots movement are trying to get people to desert Christ by following the law of Moses. It is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't realize there were that many 'untils' before you pointed them out

 

[Dan_473]

I had a follow-on thought about the call to the Israelites to emulate the LORD in His holiness -- to be holy as the LORD is holy, in all the ways that He commanded them to follow Him. Inasmuch as the Israelites were listening to the LORD's voice and obeying Him in all the ways that He commanded, they were ultimately emulating the Messiah, who would later come and walk according to those same commands in perfect obedience.

We are likewise called to be imitators of Him (1 Cor. 11:1) and live as He lived (1 John 2:6).

yes, we live as He lived... but every person will decide which of Jesus particular actions are to be imitated... and which point to a direction


for example, I don't attempt to go to a synagogue in Nazareth.






ST. MARK 7:18 whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile them,
What comes out of a person is what defiles them.

but that seems like a direction to me... I try to live by that

 

[Grace777x70]

I didn't realize there were that many 'untils' before you pointed them out

LOL....some pun intended no doubt..

 

[sparty-g]

Trying to get Christians to not eat certain foods is one of the signs of the last days falling away from the faith - faith in Christ's completed work.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It's sad that you think that God's commands, which Paul referred to as holy, righteous, and good, are nothing but doctrines of demons and deceitful spirits. Sounds almost blasphemous, to be honest. The forbidding of marriage and eating certain foods had already started in Paul's times -- they were called ascetics, look it up sometime. They practiced and preached an esoteric lifestyle of avoiding sexual relations, starving the body in extreme manners, and more with the purpose of being more "spiritual". Those are doctrines of demons and deceitful Spirits, not God's commands.

Again, your problem here is that you're reading into the passage your personal definition of "food," i.e., what is permissible to eat and what is not. And you're ignoring God's definition. Verse 4 says "because it is consecrated by the word of God." The meat of unclean animals is not consecrated by the word of God for human consumption. Just the opposite, it is forbidden to eat. And thus, you always read these verses with your own definition of food and not God's, so you see them as supporting your personal theology.

V4 -- "everything": Doesn't mean literally everything. If I had a friend coming over for dinner tonight, and my wife asked me, "What kinds of things does he like to eat?" and I responded, "Oh, don't worry about him, he eats everything!", that doesn't mean my wife would start frying up rodents, cockroaches, shoe leather, pieces of metal, etc. Again, context is key, and the only context that matters, the only definitions of concepts like "food", etc. are those that God establishes.

 

[Grace777x70]

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness ( this is what the law of Moses is based on our own personal performance of the law ) so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance which is what the law was all about.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit,fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Blik]

Ummm, you're premise was that the Law was given at creation. But Galatians 3 clearly tells us that the Law was "added" at a much later time. And not at all for the reasons you gave. The Law clearly had a beginning, but it was not at creation, it was 430 years after the Abrahamic promise.

That it was "added" marks when the Law began, just as "until" marks when it ended. It came into being at a certain point in history and was in effect "until" the promised Seed, Christ, came.

You are getting the way God created our world and the additions that the rabbis made all mixed up.

Christ is God, and God would not tell us one thing today and tomorrow change it. God is eternal.

There were no rabbis until the people of Judah were sent to Babylon and the temple destroyed. The synagogues and rabbis were created then, without the Lord telling them to do this. The rabbis started interpreting scripture, adding to it in their interpretations. Pharisees said these interpretations were the same as scripture, Christ said they were not.

The rites the Lord gave the Hebrews was not the law although people in bible times called it law.

It is up to us to learn all this and keep this straight. God is our God, not an idea to be disobeyed. God told us what is law. Law is always part of the basic law of love like the ten commandments are.