TORAH WHEN YESHUA RETURNS?

Avinu · May 25, 2011

Let me say first thing, this thread is not to get everyone barking at each other like a bunch of kids.
I'm looking for mature, Christ like responses, with scripture to back up your claims.

Alot of people, especially in the church, believe that Torah(law) is done away with through Messiah.
So what is your responses to these scriptures?

Isaiah 2:2-3 "Now it shall come to pass in the LATTER DAYS, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains. And shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it. 3) Many people shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH(law) And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Micah 4:1-2 says the exact same thing.

Again no attacking, insulting or anything negative. If you're getting mad or frustrated than don't respond till you're calm, PLEASE. THANK YOU. Shalom

eternally-gratefull · May 25, 2011

Avinu said:

The law brings us to Christ, It does not save us. It also says the law shows us how to be like Christ. The torah is not done away with. It just not now (nor has it ever) saved us. The is where national Israel got it wrong in the time of Christ, and are still getting it wrong today. They are not looking for a savior. but a king. They need to recieve Christ as their savior before he will be their king.

Avinu · May 25, 2011

The law brings us to Christ, It does not save us. It also says the law shows us how to be like Christ. The torah is not done away with. It just not now (nor has it ever) saved us. The is where national Israel got it wrong in the time of Christ, and are still getting it wrong today. They are not looking for a savior. but a king. They need to recieve Christ as their savior before he will be their king.

I'll agree with that, nicely put. Shalom

livingbygrace · May 25, 2011

Avinu said:

I chattred to a Jew on cc a while ago. He said that he tried to obey the Mosaic law. But he knew that even if he failed at times(as inevitably he would) je was saved, that was without question because his bottom line and what saved him was faith in Christ.
But he believed the Mosaic law given to Israel was eternal, but he did not believe in blood sacrifices as Christ paid the penalty for all our sin and some of those laws are no longer possible to follow I believe to follow, sorry I do not know enough of them to expand on that

I am a firm believer in grace and salvation by faith, that is our one and only righteousness in God's eyes, and I a Gentile was not given the Mosaic law, it was given to the Israelites

Now I get in trouble with some for saying this. But if a Jew out of love for God wishes to follow what they can of the Mosaic law, but at the same time they do not believe it is in any way a salvation issue, that is by faith in Christ, but out of love for God they want to adhere to the laws they can, I find nothing wrong with that, but I would also ask a Jew to accept that I a Gentile not be asked to follow the Mosaic law.

So then, he(Abraham) is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised
Rom 4:11&12

If we base our hope of Heaven on the cross of Christ alone, I don't find a problem with a Jewish Christian out of love for God wanting to follow what they can of the Mosaic law, for in their heart they know they are saved by faith in Christ

I don't believe your above scripture can refer to all nations coming to Israel to follow the Mosaic law, for if that were the casse we would have to dismiss the author of nearly half the books of the NT immediately, as well as the leaders of the Jerusalem church
In Acts 15 when Paul and Barnabas went to discuss with these leaders, many of whom had been Christ's disciples which Jewish laws the Gentile converts be asked to keep, four were mentioned, three of which I believe were to appease Jewish legalists.

zone · May 25, 2011

Avinu said:

not done away with at all.
FULFILLED completely in Him.

the curses for breaking the Law laid on Him, and His Righteous Life lived in perfect obedience accounted to the repentent sinner by Grace through faith.

upon the earnest of the Holy Spirit we are now knit together as One in Him, able to be pleasing to Him by now being able to love Him without shame or spot.

the Law is not of faith. no one will be justified by the Law, that schoolmaster.

we are enabled to turn from sin and learn to live a righteous life (as is possible for any in this flesh) until the consummation.

AnandaHya · May 25, 2011

I believe the ten commandments is a universal code of ethics that are written in the heart of everyone. However those who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior have the Holy Spirit to help them live lives according to God's law. The Torah (or Old testament as many call it) shows the world how every day people struggle to fulfill God's commandments and it is full of real people who fail and how God reacts and responds to them. It show us how we are suppose to live and how no one could follow the law exactly until Jesus came and showed us a perfect example of how we are to live life and worship God. He did not do away with the law but expanded what it truly means and how we are to serve God not in order to get salvation (which is only given through faith In Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and grace ) no we serve God because He first loved us and we show our love for God by worshiping Him and loving one another.

I heard it said that Jesus summed up the ten commandments in His two:

1. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul (covers first commandments about Worshiping only God, no idols, etc, vertical relationship between us and God)
2. Love your neighbor as yourself (covers the others about how we are to treat others. horizontal relationship between us and the world)

And we can remember these two important relationship in the image of the cross that connects us to God and the rest of the world

Matthew 5:17-19 (New King James Version)

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Avinu · May 25, 2011

Livingbygrace, I understand all of what you're saying, I too am a hebrew who knows that my salvation comes only from Yeshua and the grace of YHWH. But I also keep the commandments of God and the feasts, why? Because since He created them and He allowed me to know Yeshua, I keep them to please Him as a child who does things to please there parents.(did that make sense)

Now you say you are a gentile, yet Paul says in Eph. 2 that you were formally a gentile, Gal. 3:26-29 For we are all sons of God through faith in Yeshua, We are neither jew or gentile, for we are all ONE in Messiah. And if we are Messiah's then we are Abraham's SEED, and Heir's to the promise. (paraphrasing) Also Romans 11, you are grafted in to the tree of Israel. And one last verse, (there are alot) Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."

Contrary to popular belief, God does not have 2 types of children, possibly you have children? You have your natural blood son/daughter, you adopt another child into your family. Are you going to honestly have 2 different sets of rules in the house for each kid, different punishment and reward? It wouldn't make sense, because I would assume if you went through all the trouble of adopting that child, you are going to treat them as your own blood. Food for thought. Shalom

livingbygrace · May 25, 2011

Avinu said:

Avinu

I understand from your point of view where you are coming from

Biut Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalerm to discuss with the leaders of the Jerusalem church, many of whom had been Jesus disciples, this specific question.
Which Jewish laws should the Gentile converts be asked to keep
Four only were mentioned, three of which were to appease Jewish legalists it is fair to say. Were they wrong? Did they fail in their responsibility to the Gentile converts concerning which laws they must follow?

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a sabbath day
These are a shadow of the things to come, the reality however is found in Christ

Col 2:16&17

Avinu

Can we not just be brothers in Christ united in what Christ did for us on the cross?

I have taken much flak in the past for saying I find nothing wrong with a Jew wishing to follow the Mosaic law out of love for God if they stand by faith in Christ for their salvation.

I hope you can accept me as a Christiasn even if I do not follow the mosaic law

dmdave17 · May 25, 2011

There are laws, and there are laws. Many scholars separate Mosaic Law into two components; "moral" laws and "ceremonial" laws. Christ himself said "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
(Matthew 5:17-18) I believe that He was talking about the moral aspects of the law.

When questioned in more detail about the law, Jesus responded to the questioner as follows,“'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?' (The questioner) answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself'. 'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'” (Luke 10:26-28) He also said "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12) I believe that this indicates that His emphasis was the Moral Law.

I also believe that all believers, Jewish or Christian, are motivated by love for God to obey His laws and precepts. Many of the ceremonial laws set down by Moses were really guides for living, but the moral laws remain as true and applicable today as they were when Moses wrote them down. When we are saved, we are infused with a desire to be more like our Savior. In pursuing this goal, by definition, we strive to conform to God's Law.

Avinu · May 25, 2011

Livingbygrace, I totally accept you brother, you and I are doing the same thing, trying to do our best to Honor God with our lives. I don't judge or condemn anyone, we are to encourage, exhort and rebuke each other daily. If one is doing wrong we are to say something, otherwise iron sharpens iron. We are servants in the same race. Shalom

Lad · Jul 19, 2011

1 Look, a day is coming for ADONAI when your plunder, [Yerushalayim], will be divided right there within you. 2 "For I will gather all the nations against Yerushalayim for war. The city will be taken, the houses will be rifled, the women will be raped, and half the city will go into exile; but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city." 3 Then ADONAI will go out and fight against those nations, fighting as on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies to the east of Yerushalayim; and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, to make a huge valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 You will flee to the valley in the mountains, for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel. You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of 'Uziyah king of Y'hudah. Then ADONAI my God will come to you with all the holy ones. 6 On that day, there will be neither bright light nor thick darkness; 7 and one day, known to ADONAI, will be neither day nor night, although by evening there will be light. 8 On that day, fresh water will flow out from Yerushalayim, half toward the eastern sea and half toward the western sea, both summer and winter. 9 Then ADONAI will be king over the whole world. On that day ADONAI will be the only one, and his name will be the only name. 10 All the land will be made like the 'Aravah, from Geva to Rimmon in the Negev. Yerushalayim will be raised up and inhabited where she is, from Binyamin's Gate to the place where the earlier gate stood, and on to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hanan'el to the king's winepresses. 11 People will live there, the curse will be broken, and Yerushalayim will live in safety. 12 ADONAI will strike all the peoples who made war against Yerushalayim with a plague in which their flesh rots away while they are standing on their feet, their eyes rot away in their sockets, and their tongues rot away in their mouths. 13 When that day comes, there will be among them great panic, sent by ADONAI, so that everyone lays hands on his neighbor, who in turn attacks him. 14 Y'hudah too will fight against Yerushalayim; and the wealth of all the nations will be assembled - gold, silver and clothing in great abundance. 15 A plague like this plague will also affect the horses, mules, camels, donkeys and all the other animals in those camps. 16 Finally, everyone remaining from all the nations that came to attack Yerushalayim will go up every year to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, and to keep the festival of Sukkot. 17 If any of the families of the earth does not go up to Yerushalayim to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, no rain will fall on them. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, if they refuse to come, they will have no [annual] overflow [from the Nile]; moreover, there will be the plague with which ADONAI will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. 19 This will be Egypt's punishment and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. 20 When that day comes, this will be written on the bells worn by the horses: "Consecrated to ADONAI"; and the cooking pots in the house of ADONAI will be [as holy] as the sprinkling bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every cooking pot in Yerushalayim and Y'hudah will be consecrated to ADONAI-Tzva'ot. Everyone who offers sacrifices will come, take them and use them to stew the meat. When that day comes, there will no longer be merchants in the house of ADONAI-Tzva'ot.

Isnt it interesting how here there are still sacrifices and the feast of booths going on AFTER armageddon?

Grandpa · Jul 19, 2011

I think it is error to follow Torah after you have recieved Christ. The bible says that the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Why would you continue to hug the types and shadows when you are given what the types and shadows foretold?

God tells Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When they did eat they fell (from grace) and had sin consciousness. Did God put bad things in the garden of Eden? NO. But some things are not good for us, because we are not perfect. The Law of God brings sin consciousness as well. Sin consciousness is not good for us. What we behold is what we become. That is why we were given Jesus. So we could look to the finisher of our salvation. Follow Jesus.

I know some habits are hard to break, especially if they have been passed down through the generations and your whole family is Proud of them. The Lord Jesus will pull these strongholds down if you ask Him. Sometimes religion falls into this category...

God Bless You

Laodicea · Jul 19, 2011

Romans 6:16-18
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Psalms 119:172
(172) My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
1 John 2:4
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Revelation 12:17
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

JaumeJ · Jul 19, 2011

There is a tragic reality among many professing followers of Jesus Christ, and that reality is they believe the Old Testament is not necessary, and to a point it is not providing they understand the New Testament implicitely, and NO MAN DOES. Just as Jesus told the pharisees, "If you believe Moses, you would believe me for he wrote about me." The same holds true for the New Testament, if you believe the New Testament, you should have a great hunger for the Old testament. Personally, I spend a lot more time reading the Old Testament than I do the New Testament. There is a simple reason I do this, the Old Testament is a lot bigger. God bless all in Jesus Christ, and remember, there is so much about Jesus Christ starting with "In the beginning," after all nothing was created without the Word, Jesus Christ, thus Genesis is talking about Him...

zone · Jul 19, 2011

2011-07-10-PJ
Justification by Faith, Not by Works of Law

Galatians 2:16
Listen

http://www.swordandtrowel.org/philsermons.htm
phil johnson

JaumeJ · Jul 19, 2011

zone said:

Faith automatically produces works or righteousness, starting with obeying Jesus Christ. It does no harm to obey the Laws which Christ fulfilled and teaches they will never be invalid, but there is punishment for disobeying the law, the curse; they are only a burden to law breakers. Don't forget, we may stumble at them, but He carries us through, it is by grace we are saved, not by performance because no man is perfect except the One Who is our Righteousness, Jesus Christ, or if you prefer, Yeshua Mashiach. Do not deny the Old Testament, it is a compilation of writings about Jesus Christ.

zone · Jul 19, 2011

JaumeJ said:

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

~

Romans 4:4-6
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

im4Him · Jul 19, 2011

I have been watching Avinu's questions on keeping Torah for the past few days. This is a subject that I am very interested in so I had to sign up so that I could throw my two denari in. First one scripture that I haven't seen quoted is Jude verse 4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
So grace doesn't give us a license to sin. What is sin? How would we know what sin is without the law?
Also Acts 26:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.
So it seems to me that we are expected to live right out of obedience. Are we free from all laws? If not which ones are still in effect and which ones are not and why?
There are too many scriptures that point to the law (old and new testaments) for me to just dismiss them.
Thanks Avinu for these discussions.

Grandpa · Jul 19, 2011

Are we free from all laws? If not which ones are still in effect and which ones are not and why?

The way I have heard it explained is that the law is like gravity and grace is like bernoullis law of lift. Gravity doesn't stop but grace allows you to rise above and observe a whole new law.

Bernoullis law about the way a wing of a plane is shaped and creates lift.

The law is not done away with. The law is the anchor of the world, otherwise chaos. But now with Jesus we are not condemned by the law. Thank you Jesus.

God Bless You

im4Him · Jul 19, 2011

Grandpa? I just noticed your age. Your still a kid

Not condemned by the law, what does that mean to you?

TORAH WHEN YESHUA RETURNS?

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