TORAH WHEN YESHUA RETURNS?

[Grandpa]

Grandpa? I just noticed your age. Your still a kid
Not condemned by the law, what does that mean to you?

HA! Thanks. I tell people I am young at heart, lol

Not condemned by the law means my faith in my Saviour Jesus Christ is what saves me. None of my works or the works of any other man can save me from sin. The law shows you your sin and therefore condemns. Sin leads to death. But Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the LIFE. I choose Life!!! I trust in Jesus.

God Bless You

 

[GloryBe]

This is definitely a confusing subject to me. The book of Hebrews points out many of the differences between the old outlined in the Torah and the new, outlined in the New Testament. The former being only shadows of what we have since recieved through Jesus Christ. The sacrifice of the blood of animals was a shadow of the true sacrifice of the blood of Christ. The role of high priest as mediator was only a shadow of our now high priest, Jesus Christ. The tabernacle and its design was only a shadow of the throne room of God to which we now have access through Jesus Christ. The ark of the covenant was a shadow of the throne of God in that throne room. Even the practise of the written law was only a shadow of the obedience of the heart that comes through submission to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

But...the law itself...or at least the moral law, such as the 10 commandments... is that still part of Jesus commandments that we are told to obey in obedience? I think it is. And if it is, why are we to now obey just the moral laws? Is there any scripture that separates these out as some being still applicable and some not? I guess what I'm getting at is that I know the motivation behind obedience has changed, but has what that obedience actually consists of changed?

These are just intended as some questions to ponder because I ponder them myself and would love to hear others input.

 

[AnandaHya]

Let me say first thing, this thread is not to get everyone barking at each other like a bunch of kids.
I'm looking for mature, Christ like responses, with scripture to back up your claims.

Alot of people, especially in the church, believe that Torah(law) is done away with through Messiah.
So what is your responses to these scriptures?

Isaiah 2:2-3 "Now it shall come to pass in the LATTER DAYS, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains. And shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it. 3) Many people shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH(law) And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Micah 4:1-2 says the exact same thing.

Again no attacking, insulting or anything negative. If you're getting mad or frustrated than don't respond till you're calm, PLEASE. THANK YOU. Shalom

I think God's law/torah is eternal but men like to add their requirements to God's and claim it is what God wants everyone else to do.

People tend to get lazy and either believe the legalistic Pharisical types or the other extreme the free-grace without repentance crowd. both are wrong but hey its simpler to let others do the thinking for you and not grow up and learn to divide truth from lies, good from evil.

I thank God for each and ever mature Christian I have ever encountered in my life. Praise be to GOD.

Hebrews 5:12-14
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[Grandpa]

Galations 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

really all of Galatians 5 but I just highlighted these couple of verses. I think when we say we are following the Law we are bringing it down to a human level where it can be followed. The Law is Holy as God is Holy, perfect. Flesh cannot be in the presence of God and say I am righteous.

Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

 

[im4Him]

God says in Deuteronomy 30:11-14.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

My concern is that I see way too many people who call themselves Christian and use grace as a license to sin and it is getting worse.

 

[Avinu]

My concern is that I see way too many people who call themselves Christian and use grace as a license to sin and it is getting worse.

Man did you nail that on the head, God save the body from itself. Shalom

 

[Grandpa]

I love God. I didn't will myself to love God to avoid the curse. I love God because He loved my first. He saved me and I love Him for it. I was saved by His Grace. I don't use grace as a license to sin. You don't spit on the one you love. That doesn't make any sense. I wonder about the people you talk about that use grace as a license to sin. I hope you are exaggerating. Jesus didn't say go and sin all you want. He said go and sin no more. Its got to be hard to go and sin no more if you are always focused on sin. If you focus on love and joy and peace you can go and sin no more. Because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

God Bless You

 

[im4Him]

I love God. I didn't will myself to love God to avoid the curse. I love God because He loved my first. He saved me and I love Him for it. I was saved by His Grace. I don't use grace as a license to sin. You don't spit on the one you love. That doesn't make any sense. I wonder about the people you talk about that use grace as a license to sin. I hope you are exaggerating. Jesus didn't say go and sin all you want. He said go and sin no more. Its got to be hard to go and sin no more if you are always focused on sin. If you focus on love and joy and peace you can go and sin no more. Because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

God Bless You

Hey Grandpa,
I'm sorry I've been out of town the last two days ministering.
I promise you I am not exaggerating. I could give you many examples. But let me ask a question, how can I tell who is using grace a license to sin without the law?
God Bless you too! I can tell that you are a sincere man of God and I appreciate your honest discussion. I know that we can learn from each other.

 

[zone]

Hey Grandpa,
I'm sorry I've been out of town the last two days ministering.
I promise you I am not exaggerating. I could give you many examples. But let me ask a question, how can I tell who is using grace a license to sin without the law?
God Bless you too! I can tell that you are a sincere man of God and I appreciate your honest discussion. I know that we can learn from each other.

its not up to us to tell who is using Grace as an excuse to sin.
that's The Holy Spirit's Commission.

if they are obviously sinning and in our churches, what does the bible say the PASTORS are to do?

if any are, it's because they are either in ignorance (which means God is giving them Grace before He starts PRUNING...in which case we should be there to help restore that one), or because they heard some seeker sensitive false gospel and aren't saved.

we PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR OUR SINS.

 

[zone]

I love God. I didn't will myself to love God to avoid the curse. I love God because He loved my first. He saved me and I love Him for it. I was saved by His Grace. I don't use grace as a license to sin. You don't spit on the one you love. That doesn't make any sense. I wonder about the people you talk about that use grace as a license to sin. I hope you are exaggerating. Jesus didn't say go and sin all you want. He said go and sin no more. Its got to be hard to go and sin no more if you are always focused on sin. If you focus on love and joy and peace you can go and sin no more. Because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

God Bless You

hi Grandpa.
i know you don't use Grace as a license to sin.
anybody who testifes as you just did KNOWS JESUS CHRIST, and knows who he is in Christ.
A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE.

 

[zone]

My concern is that I see way too many people who call themselves Christian and use grace as a license to sin and it is getting worse.

i don't see any i know are USING GRACE AS AN EXCUSE.
WHERE ARE THEY?

why is it so hard for us to actually find out who it was Jude was describing?

because its easier to throw this out recklessly and never bother studying.

 

[loveschild]

Let me say first thing, this thread is not to get everyone barking at each other like a bunch of kids.
I'm looking for mature, Christ like responses, with scripture to back up your claims.

Alot of people, especially in the church, believe that Torah(law) is done away with through Messiah.
So what is your responses to these scriptures?

Isaiah 2:2-3 "Now it shall come to pass in the LATTER DAYS, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains. And shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it. 3) Many people shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH(law) And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Micah 4:1-2 says the exact same thing.

Again no attacking, insulting or anything negative. If you're getting mad or frustrated than don't respond till you're calm, PLEASE. THANK YOU. Shalom

1. 2 Corinthians 3:6
   [It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.
   2 Corinthians 3:5-7 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)

 

[JaumeJ]

1. 2 Corinthians 3:6
   [It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.
   2 Corinthians 3:5-7 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)

This website has been very good to me and for me. Your debating capacity is amazing on this subject. Now I am a bit confused about what exactly is keeping Torah. I am attending online classes for learning some Hebrew, and in so doing combined with reading the debating here, I realize I am just a bit bewildered by everything. It was my impression the commandments we should always keep are the Ten of course, but also that anything Jesus commands us we should observe. I know that in order to fulfill all righteousness, Jesus was not guilty of breaking one law of Moses, and He is become our righteousness before God's holy throne. Does Torah include the clean laws? I know there is great blessing in keeping God's commandments, and I also know we are forgiven should we stumble, because according to John, and common sense, anyone who says he is not a sinner is a liar and the truth is not in him. Now, I do know that knowing and believing Christ crucified for our sins is all we need to know for salvation as long as we cling to Him and His Teachings. So where does one go from here? I know obeying God's laws is not a burden unless one is an law breaker. This goes in cylcles it seems...please continue and try to conlude after prayerful elaboration................

 

[im4Him]

its not up to us to tell who is using Grace as an excuse to sin.
that's The Holy Spirit's Commission.

if they are obviously sinning and in our churches, what does the bible say the PASTORS are to do?

if any are, it's because they are either in ignorance (which means God is giving them Grace before He starts PRUNING...in which case we should be there to help restore that one), or because they heard some seeker sensitive false gospel and aren't saved.

we PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR OUR SINS.

Sorry zone gotta disagree I think we are to tell who is using grace as a license to sin.
1 Corinthians 5:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

 

[zone]

Sorry zone gotta disagree I think we are to tell who is using grace as a license to sin.
1 Corinthians 5:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

LICENSE TO SIN? what's THAT?
are you without SIN?

is this THE church?
i said: if we see one in OUR CHURCH sinning, what does the bible say OUR Pastors are to do about it?

 

[im4Him]

i don't see any i know are USING GRACE AS AN EXCUSE.
WHERE ARE THEY?

why is it so hard for us to actually find out who it was Jude was describing?

because its easier to throw this out recklessly and never bother studying.

Sorry again zone. I could name things that people are doing that according to the Bible is sin but I chose not to. You recklessly accuse me of not studying which I do not appreciate so I will not argue rather I will bow out.

 

[Lad]

This website has been very good to me and for me. Your debating capacity is amazing on this subject. Now I am a bit confused about what exactly is keeping Torah. I am attending online classes for learning some Hebrew, and in so doing combined with reading the debating here, I realize I am just a bit bewildered by everything. It was my impression the commandments we should always keep are the Ten of course, but also that anything Jesus commands us we should observe. I know that in order to fulfill all righteousness, Jesus was not guilty of breaking one law of Moses, and He is become our righteousness before God's holy throne. Does Torah include the clean laws? I know there is great blessing in keeping God's commandments, and I also know we are forgiven should we stumble, because according to John, and common sense, anyone who says he is not a sinner is a liar and the truth is not in him. Now, I do know that knowing and believing Christ crucified for our sins is all we need to know for salvation as long as we cling to Him and His Teachings. So where does one go from here? I know obeying God's laws is not a burden unless one is an law breaker. This goes in cylcles it seems...please continue and try to conlude after prayerful elaboration................

The law of moshe and the torah arent just the ten commandments but the whole first five books of the ot.

 

[Avinu]

The law of moshe and the torah arent just the ten commandments but the whole first five books of the ot.
__________________

AMEN, LAD, AMEN.

 

[JaumeJ]

In my morning read, and after posting my concerns above, I have come to the teaching of Jesus, Yeshua, in Mark, and I would like all who participate in the tertulia, this debate, to please consider this teaching, and if you will, with prayer and some meditation, thank you. toda rabah!

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please forgive my error, I had intended to stress with a highlight the following from my previous post in this thread:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.