C
I got my info before with all those verses right before this post from http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html
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G
Sorry for the delay in response, I caught your reply earlier just as I was about to head out the door for work.
The term "hen" simply means unity, it can describe any type of unity. It seems you are confusing the words, or the idea of the simplicity of unity within the Trinity. Take note of what I did not say: I did not say that Father, Son, and Spirit indwelled in one single Person. Notice what I did say was, "First I tought I would point out, since it seems to be fitting the overall discussion, the Greek word 'hen,' translated in John 10:30 as 'one,' is in the neuter gender, which expresses Jesus’ full unity of nature/essence, and equality of action/power with the Father. It does not mean that the Father, and Son are One in the sense of Persons, which would require the masculine form, rather than the neuter gender, 'hen.'"
Take note that Trinitarians do not believe Jesus and His Father are the same Persons, but totally distinct from one another; however, they are in unity ["hen"] of Being. For example, the Body of Christ, though it consists of many members, they are all One in unity within Christ (Galatian 3:28). Or another example is seen in Genesis 2:24, where a man and woman are One in unity. Likewise, the Father, Son, and Spirit, though they are three distinct Persons, exist in unity with one another, they exist in unity within the Divine Being.
You have to consider the surrounding context of John 10:30. Christ says, I and the Father - the Creator of all things, the Judge of all men, the Father of the spirits of all flesh, the one who is "greater than all" - are One, they are equals. One in nature, and One in power - equals. And so it is evident the Jews understood him, as they responded by picking up stones (v. 31-32), and charging Christ for blasphemy, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
As Albert Barnes points out:
1.) He affirmed that he was able to rescue and keep his people from all enemies, or that he had power superior to men and devils that is, that he had supreme power over all creation. He affirmed the same of his Father. In this, therefore, they were united.
2.) The Jews understood him as affirming his equality with God, for they took up stones to punish him for blasphemy John 10:31, John 10:33, and they said to him that they understood him as affirming that he was God, John 10:33.
3.) Jesus did not deny that it was his intention to be so understood. See the notes at John 10:34-37.
4.) He immediately made another declaration implying the same thing, leaving the same impression, and which they attempted to punish in the same manner, John 10:37-39. If Jesus had not intended so to be understood, it cannot be easily reconciled with moral honesty that he did not distinctly disavow that such was his intention. The Jews were well acquainted with their own language. They understood him in this manner, and he left this impression on their minds.
In no way would the Jews have ever have picked up stones and charged Christ of blasphemy if Christ simply meant that He and the Father were one in purpose. However, if Christ claimed equality with the Father as I have argued, then that is worthy of picking up a stone or two, or even maybe three.
The term "hen" simply means unity, it can describe any type of unity. It seems you are confusing the words, or the idea of the simplicity of unity within the Trinity. Take note of what I did not say: I did not say that Father, Son, and Spirit indwelled in one single Person. Notice what I did say was, "First I tought I would point out, since it seems to be fitting the overall discussion, the Greek word 'hen,' translated in John 10:30 as 'one,' is in the neuter gender, which expresses Jesus’ full unity of nature/essence, and equality of action/power with the Father. It does not mean that the Father, and Son are One in the sense of Persons, which would require the masculine form, rather than the neuter gender, 'hen.'"
Take note that Trinitarians do not believe Jesus and His Father are the same Persons, but totally distinct from one another; however, they are in unity ["hen"] of Being. For example, the Body of Christ, though it consists of many members, they are all One in unity within Christ (Galatian 3:28). Or another example is seen in Genesis 2:24, where a man and woman are One in unity. Likewise, the Father, Son, and Spirit, though they are three distinct Persons, exist in unity with one another, they exist in unity within the Divine Being.
You have to consider the surrounding context of John 10:30. Christ says, I and the Father - the Creator of all things, the Judge of all men, the Father of the spirits of all flesh, the one who is "greater than all" - are One, they are equals. One in nature, and One in power - equals. And so it is evident the Jews understood him, as they responded by picking up stones (v. 31-32), and charging Christ for blasphemy, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
As Albert Barnes points out:
1.) He affirmed that he was able to rescue and keep his people from all enemies, or that he had power superior to men and devils that is, that he had supreme power over all creation. He affirmed the same of his Father. In this, therefore, they were united.
2.) The Jews understood him as affirming his equality with God, for they took up stones to punish him for blasphemy John 10:31, John 10:33, and they said to him that they understood him as affirming that he was God, John 10:33.
3.) Jesus did not deny that it was his intention to be so understood. See the notes at John 10:34-37.
4.) He immediately made another declaration implying the same thing, leaving the same impression, and which they attempted to punish in the same manner, John 10:37-39. If Jesus had not intended so to be understood, it cannot be easily reconciled with moral honesty that he did not distinctly disavow that such was his intention. The Jews were well acquainted with their own language. They understood him in this manner, and he left this impression on their minds.
In no way would the Jews have ever have picked up stones and charged Christ of blasphemy if Christ simply meant that He and the Father were one in purpose. However, if Christ claimed equality with the Father as I have argued, then that is worthy of picking up a stone or two, or even maybe three.
It seems this site has some issues it needs to sort out. Here is my reply.
Hi GraceB4U
From what you say the Hebrew word hen could mean anything. It could mean single essence as Christians on other blogs have explained to me. So we need to look at the context of what it was said.
Verse 28 says that “No one can snatch them out of my hand” verse 29 says “No one can snatch them out of my father’s hand” then verse 30 says that “I and the Father are one”
It is one in purpose. In context, we come to know that Jesus pbuh is saying that once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one.
The Jews that were going to stone Jesus. Mobs act in irrational ways. How any peaceful protest turn violent. There would have been pharisees or people sympathetic to the pharisees in amongst the crowd that seized on the ambiguous meanings that hen had. What was his reply to the Jewish crowd.
"34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
He is quoting from Psalms 82:6
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Jesus pbuh is stating I am the son of God but hey you are as well. Don't stone me because I am claiming to be the son of God.
In the Lords prayer
Our father who art in heaven.
It is not My Father it is Our Father.
John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-- and the Scripture cannot be broken--
In Exodus 7:1 prophets are referred to as Gods. Jesus pbuh is stating you don't take exception to this why are you taking exception now when I state I am inferior to God ?
The miracles he performed, he never took the credit for it.
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:30
He had a chance to push the point home that he is God and here he is backpedaling, Hey what are you guys doing. These miracles are not mine. Don't go thinking I am a God now.
I with the finger of God cast out devils….
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]
Seems impressive what happened but it is not me guys.Don't go treating me as a God.
Unfortunately the scribes did not listen to him and throughout the bible now we have commentary that states Jesus pbuh is divine in contrast to him explicitly stating he is not.
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
Hi GraceB4U
From what you say the Hebrew word hen could mean anything. It could mean single essence as Christians on other blogs have explained to me. So we need to look at the context of what it was said.
Verse 28 says that “No one can snatch them out of my hand” verse 29 says “No one can snatch them out of my father’s hand” then verse 30 says that “I and the Father are one”
It is one in purpose. In context, we come to know that Jesus pbuh is saying that once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one.
The Jews that were going to stone Jesus. Mobs act in irrational ways. How any peaceful protest turn violent. There would have been pharisees or people sympathetic to the pharisees in amongst the crowd that seized on the ambiguous meanings that hen had. What was his reply to the Jewish crowd.
"34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
He is quoting from Psalms 82:6
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Jesus pbuh is stating I am the son of God but hey you are as well. Don't stone me because I am claiming to be the son of God.
In the Lords prayer
Our father who art in heaven.
It is not My Father it is Our Father.
John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-- and the Scripture cannot be broken--
In Exodus 7:1 prophets are referred to as Gods. Jesus pbuh is stating you don't take exception to this why are you taking exception now when I state I am inferior to God ?
The miracles he performed, he never took the credit for it.
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:30
He had a chance to push the point home that he is God and here he is backpedaling, Hey what are you guys doing. These miracles are not mine. Don't go thinking I am a God now.
I with the finger of God cast out devils….
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]
Seems impressive what happened but it is not me guys.Don't go treating me as a God.
Unfortunately the scribes did not listen to him and throughout the bible now we have commentary that states Jesus pbuh is divine in contrast to him explicitly stating he is not.
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.
3
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
it goes on and is the longest speech by Jesus recorded in the NT
then there's this from the OT
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
clearly there is an implied if not implicit separateness from the very first book of the Bible.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
it goes on and is the longest speech by Jesus recorded in the NT
then there's this from the OT
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
clearly there is an implied if not implicit separateness from the very first book of the Bible.
3
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and these verses say both.
So what's true.... both
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
I wouldn't let this be a stumbling block, no need to lean on our own understanding.
If I cling to one or another I make Christ a liar for he has declared both.
If I don't understand then I will take it on faith and have no cause to crumble within myself to distraction.
God Bless and keep you
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and these verses say both.
So what's true.... both
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
I wouldn't let this be a stumbling block, no need to lean on our own understanding.
If I cling to one or another I make Christ a liar for he has declared both.
If I don't understand then I will take it on faith and have no cause to crumble within myself to distraction.
God Bless and keep you
Hi Crazy4GODword
Jesus pbuh was quite clear that God was greater than he and without God he could do nothing. It seems quite clear that Jeses tells us he is not a God he is a messenger. Having said that a special messenger, he is the messiah but it still does not make him a God.
The stating of the father, son and holy spirit together does not prove a trinity. It only confirm that the author's belief that they should be mentioned during baptism.
Seems to be an important instruction just before Jesus pbuh acension. All the apostles were there. The gospels attributed to John and Luke make no mention of this. In Mark it states that the verses concerning the baptism but the publishers of the bible have come clean and stated that the verses on the baptism are a fabrication.
What a disaster the scribes of the current bible have perpetrated on mankind. They made the word of God the word of man.
The scribes meddling of the scripture occurred before JEsus pbuh.
How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
and the scribes were of the same quality during the time of Jesus pbuh.
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people
Jesus pbuh was quite clear that God was greater than he and without God he could do nothing. It seems quite clear that Jeses tells us he is not a God he is a messenger. Having said that a special messenger, he is the messiah but it still does not make him a God.
The stating of the father, son and holy spirit together does not prove a trinity. It only confirm that the author's belief that they should be mentioned during baptism.
Seems to be an important instruction just before Jesus pbuh acension. All the apostles were there. The gospels attributed to John and Luke make no mention of this. In Mark it states that the verses concerning the baptism but the publishers of the bible have come clean and stated that the verses on the baptism are a fabrication.
What a disaster the scribes of the current bible have perpetrated on mankind. They made the word of God the word of man.
The scribes meddling of the scripture occurred before JEsus pbuh.
How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)
and the scribes were of the same quality during the time of Jesus pbuh.
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people
Your understanding is faulty. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, put aside His divinity, because just as us, but without sin. And so, in an example to us, He did nothing but through His Father, God in heaven, by the power of the Holy Spirit. This so we could walk in the very same power.
If Jesus was just a messenger, then our faith is in vain, and we are to be pitied about all men.
Have this attitude in yourself which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above ever name, that at the name of Jesus Every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The relationship between the Son of God and God the Father is not that the Son is just a messenger.
C
Dear friend PBUH
I really really have testimony of the Spirit talk to me and it was like a voice you cannot hear, and WOW it was amazing and it goes good with this topic well.
(this actually happened to me and it fit perfect in this topic)
I was at my father's house and I was listening to Christian music and was what you might say dancing. And I was thinking and all of a sudden I had this thought in my head showing me some type of evidence without exact words. The thought was "Jesus is the Father but in a form" and I started to giggle and was very happy and pleased and this thought came around while i was listen to music. It showed me the connection, see God was the only Holy Lamb that was sacred enough to be sacrificed, but this knowledge I might have not yet learn and He taught me. I wanted to make sure this was true (not saying man has truth) so i asked my pastor and He said they were one and i knew that was from the Spirit within....Amazing right!!!!
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I really really have testimony of the Spirit talk to me and it was like a voice you cannot hear, and WOW it was amazing and it goes good with this topic well.
(this actually happened to me and it fit perfect in this topic)
I was at my father's house and I was listening to Christian music and was what you might say dancing. And I was thinking and all of a sudden I had this thought in my head showing me some type of evidence without exact words. The thought was "Jesus is the Father but in a form" and I started to giggle and was very happy and pleased and this thought came around while i was listen to music. It showed me the connection, see God was the only Holy Lamb that was sacred enough to be sacrificed, but this knowledge I might have not yet learn and He taught me. I wanted to make sure this was true (not saying man has truth) so i asked my pastor and He said they were one and i knew that was from the Spirit within....Amazing right!!!!
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
I love you LORD
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Hi C4GW
If my understanding is faulty then please show me how it is faulty. You have not produced any verses to back yourself up. I am very concerned for you. It seems looking at your later posts you are starting to let your emotions find the path to God for you. This is dangerous. Don't let these random inspirations be your only guide. You do not know where these inspirations are coming from. Remember your soul is on the line here. Do the hard work and verify that you are on the right path.
If my understanding is faulty then please show me how it is faulty. You have not produced any verses to back yourself up. I am very concerned for you. It seems looking at your later posts you are starting to let your emotions find the path to God for you. This is dangerous. Don't let these random inspirations be your only guide. You do not know where these inspirations are coming from. Remember your soul is on the line here. Do the hard work and verify that you are on the right path.
G
No sir, you must follow and understand the responses given by Christ, and the responses that of the Jews to understand in context, the true meaning.
Verse 28 and 29, Christ is comparing His power to that of the Father's. He has equated His power to give eternal life, which is a divine prerogative in and of itself, as well as the power to preserve His sheep safely in His hands alongside that of the Father's power to do the same. The Jews rebelled at the idea that Jesus and His Father shared this power to preserve the saints and, in this very sense, proclaiming that He was "one" with His Father, whom is "greater than all." This is what was considered as "blasphemy" in v. 33, and the reason they pick up stones against Christ in vv. 31-32.
You made mention of John 10:34, where Christ quotes from Psalm 82:6, "I [God] said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.'" Let's have a look at John 10:34-39,
As stated prior, this is a case of arguing from the "lesser to the greater." The reason the Old Testament judges could be called "gods" ("elohim") is because they were instruments of the word of God. However, granted that basis, Jesus is entitled much more than they to be called God. He is the Word of God, the Word incarnate (John 1:1-14, Revelation 19:14), whom the Father holds in the highest esteem, and sent into the world. The gist of the argument is like this: If it is acceptable to call men “gods" and "sons of the Most High," because they were the instruments of the word of God, how much more legitimate is it to use the word “God” and "Son of God" of Him who is the unique, only-begotten God (John 1:18), the Son of God? Essentially, Christ is saying, "If you are gods, sons of the Most High, much more, much greater am I. For I am the Son of God, heir to the throne of my Father." Notice Christ did not say in v. 36, "I am [a] Son of God" in the sense of one in a plurality of sons. No, He identified Himself as the Son of God, the one and only-begotten of the Father, whom existed alongside the Father, and shared glory with the Father before the world was (John 17:5; John 6:62; John 3:13; John 16:28). And Christ continued on to to make a very similar declaration in vv. 37-38 to that of in v. 30 that infuriates the Jews, in so much that they attempt to seize after Him, or attempt to attack again (v. 39).
In regards to John 5, which is so closely identical to that of John 10, you made mention of John 5:30, but no mention of John 5:17-18. Why? We have Christ who heals a man on the Sabbath, a day where working, or anything of the such is not permitted by Law. And because Christ healed this sickly man, the Jews accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath, and in response to such accusations, He equates Himself with the Father -- "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." In other words, "I am working on the Sabbath, likewise, so is My Father." Just as YHWH keeps the world in orbit, the grass growing, the snow falling, the flowers blooming, even on the Sabbath; Christ likewise claimed the same right to Himself -- i.e., "The Father works to sustain the world, to keep the orbit in motion, and like My Father, I too work on the Sabbath!" And to that, John writes, "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
In address to John 5:30, which states,
And how much more of a way can perfection of unity between distinct Persons be expressed? "I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." If the Trinity is to be true, there must be a perfection of unity between the Persons within. Christ isn't out to do His own will, but is in total agreement to the will of the Father, this is an example of the perfect harmony, and perfect unity between the Father, and Son. The Son is not a loose canon, so-to-speak, out doing His own thing, but is in perfect harmony with the will of the Father. If there was no perfection of unity, there would be no Trinity.
*In addition, the Greek (not Hebrew) term "one" (heis) in reference to two or more persons (or things) that are in union with one another. As the NET points out in regards to John 10:30, "The phrase ἕν ἐσμεν is a significant assertion with Trinitarian implications. ἕν is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one “thing.” Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted, but essential unity (unity of essence)."
Verse 28 and 29, Christ is comparing His power to that of the Father's. He has equated His power to give eternal life, which is a divine prerogative in and of itself, as well as the power to preserve His sheep safely in His hands alongside that of the Father's power to do the same. The Jews rebelled at the idea that Jesus and His Father shared this power to preserve the saints and, in this very sense, proclaiming that He was "one" with His Father, whom is "greater than all." This is what was considered as "blasphemy" in v. 33, and the reason they pick up stones against Christ in vv. 31-32.
You made mention of John 10:34, where Christ quotes from Psalm 82:6, "I [God] said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.'" Let's have a look at John 10:34-39,
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law,'I said, you are gods'? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.
In regards to John 5, which is so closely identical to that of John 10, you made mention of John 5:30, but no mention of John 5:17-18. Why? We have Christ who heals a man on the Sabbath, a day where working, or anything of the such is not permitted by Law. And because Christ healed this sickly man, the Jews accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath, and in response to such accusations, He equates Himself with the Father -- "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." In other words, "I am working on the Sabbath, likewise, so is My Father." Just as YHWH keeps the world in orbit, the grass growing, the snow falling, the flowers blooming, even on the Sabbath; Christ likewise claimed the same right to Himself -- i.e., "The Father works to sustain the world, to keep the orbit in motion, and like My Father, I too work on the Sabbath!" And to that, John writes, "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
In address to John 5:30, which states,
"I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
*In addition, the Greek (not Hebrew) term "one" (heis) in reference to two or more persons (or things) that are in union with one another. As the NET points out in regards to John 10:30, "The phrase ἕν ἐσμεν is a significant assertion with Trinitarian implications. ἕν is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one “thing.” Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted, but essential unity (unity of essence)."
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C
No friend I know the difference between my emotions and a spontaneously feeling out of nowhere. Plus friend how could I get that knowledge if I wasn't before sure about it and all of a sudden this happen. I believe i was also inspired by the music to lead me into that testimony. It felt like the Spirit moving through my heart!!!!
It is true that Jesus is the Father in human form.
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all(Ephesians 4:6).
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).
11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne(Psalm 132:11).
6Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works(John 14:7-10).
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory(1 Timothy 3:16).
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(Revelation 22:3-4).
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(1 Corinthians 8:6).
There is only one God,the Father,and one visible manifestation of God the Father,the Lord Jesus Christ,and the throne in heaven is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6;14-16).
Jesus is more than a visible God,for Jesus is the invisible God,who dwells in the light that no man can approach unto;whom no man has seen,and no man will ever be able to see Jesus.
While we cannot see Jesus because He is an invisible God,we can see a visible manifestation of Him.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father and He will do it(John 16:23-29),but in another passage of scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him and He will do it(John 14:12-14).
The Bible says the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God the Father(1 Corinthians 15:23-28),which the kingdom is the Church,and the kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:20-21),but in another passage of scripture Jesus will present the Church to Himself(Ephesians 5:25-27).
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5.
Our savior is the man Christ Jesus,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf.
No man is sinless,so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and laid down His human life for mankind(1 John 3:16,Acts 20:28).
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation(2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony,and all who have the Spirit are in harmony with God.
When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh,it means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus(Colossians 2:8-10,John 3:34,Colossians 1:19),and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,which means that Jesus is God Himself in a visible manifestation.
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all(Ephesians 4:6).
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).
11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne(Psalm 132:11).
6Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works(John 14:7-10).
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory(1 Timothy 3:16).
3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(Revelation 22:3-4).
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him(1 Corinthians 8:6).
There is only one God,the Father,and one visible manifestation of God the Father,the Lord Jesus Christ,and the throne in heaven is the throne of both God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen(1 Timothy 6;14-16).
Jesus is more than a visible God,for Jesus is the invisible God,who dwells in the light that no man can approach unto;whom no man has seen,and no man will ever be able to see Jesus.
While we cannot see Jesus because He is an invisible God,we can see a visible manifestation of Him.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father and He will do it(John 16:23-29),but in another passage of scripture Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven to ask Him and He will do it(John 14:12-14).
The Bible says the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God the Father(1 Corinthians 15:23-28),which the kingdom is the Church,and the kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:20-21),but in another passage of scripture Jesus will present the Church to Himself(Ephesians 5:25-27).
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5.
Our savior is the man Christ Jesus,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf.
No man is sinless,so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and laid down His human life for mankind(1 John 3:16,Acts 20:28).
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation(2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony,and all who have the Spirit are in harmony with God.
When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh,it means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus(Colossians 2:8-10,John 3:34,Colossians 1:19),and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,which means that Jesus is God Himself in a visible manifestation.
G
Yes, and no. Yes, three Persons in the Divine Being. Yes, God did visit Abraham; however, it was not all three Persons of the Trinity that visited Abraham. Christ explicitly said in regards to the Father, "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." Likewise, John 6:46 also proclaims, "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."
Yet, remarkably so, YHWH did appear before Abraham (Genesis 18:1; 18:22; 18:33), Abraham even carries out a fully fledged conversation (Genesis 18:9; 18:14; 18:17; 18:20; 18:23; 18:28) with one of the three men who are identified as YHWH. Likewise, in Genesis 19:24, the Lord is represented as present in the skies, whence the storm of desolation comes upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and on the earth where it falls -- one Person identified as YHWH on the ground, the other Person identified also as YHWH who is in the heavens. Amos 4 portrays this same idea, where YHWH is obviously speaking about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and yet in Amos 4:10-11 says, "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. 'I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD."
I argue, as did Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, two Early Church fathers, that it wasn't all three Persons of the Trinity that Abraham saw, but rather, it was Christ, YHWH, who spoke to Abraham, who reigned down fire and brimstone from His Father, YHWH, out of heaven. So what Jesus said in reference to John 5:37, and John 6:46 does not contradict what Genesis 18, 19, and Amos 4 so seemingly portray.
Yet, remarkably so, YHWH did appear before Abraham (Genesis 18:1; 18:22; 18:33), Abraham even carries out a fully fledged conversation (Genesis 18:9; 18:14; 18:17; 18:20; 18:23; 18:28) with one of the three men who are identified as YHWH. Likewise, in Genesis 19:24, the Lord is represented as present in the skies, whence the storm of desolation comes upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and on the earth where it falls -- one Person identified as YHWH on the ground, the other Person identified also as YHWH who is in the heavens. Amos 4 portrays this same idea, where YHWH is obviously speaking about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and yet in Amos 4:10-11 says, "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. 'I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD."
I argue, as did Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, two Early Church fathers, that it wasn't all three Persons of the Trinity that Abraham saw, but rather, it was Christ, YHWH, who spoke to Abraham, who reigned down fire and brimstone from His Father, YHWH, out of heaven. So what Jesus said in reference to John 5:37, and John 6:46 does not contradict what Genesis 18, 19, and Amos 4 so seemingly portray.
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G
Oh, I'm not denying the Trinity, seeing as I am a Trinitarian. However, a great number of Trinitarians are actually confused Modalists. Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, as I have been discussing from the very first post of this discussion, but that they are three distinct Persons in unity with one another -- three Persons in total unity of the Divine Essence -- the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit.
Modalism/Sabellianism is the view that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, that they are literally one Person, existing in one flesh. "Us," "Our," distinguish multiple People/Persons, which is the Trinitarian view.
Modalism/Sabellianism is the view that Jesus is the same Person as the Father, that they are literally one Person, existing in one flesh. "Us," "Our," distinguish multiple People/Persons, which is the Trinitarian view.
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