True or False - "Another Jesus"?

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FollowtheShepherd

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I`ve been arguing with people over that ever since I joined this outfit.
It seems the is a ravenous wolf teaching the doctrine of Balaam and Jezebel and thus misleadning the herd away from the Only Shepherd...

In my circle everyone agrees that Jesus is the One of Acts 3:21-23. and that He is our only Shepherd. King of kings, Lord of lords. Well I have met Catholics, many of them that believe the Pope can change things, but I do not believe this.
 

RickStudies

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It seems the is a ravenous wolf teaching the doctrine of Balaam and Jezebel and thus misleadning the herd away from the Only Shepherd...

In my circle everyone agrees that Jesus is the One of Acts 3:21-23. and that He is our only Shepherd. King of kings, Lord of lords. Well I have met Catholics, many of them that believe the Pope can change things, but I do not believe this.
I meant I agreed that Jesus did not say He would do away with the Law. Calm down.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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I meant I agreed that Jesus did not say He would do away with the Law. Calm down.
I mean in the world, I dont know what everyone here believes. But I see this in the world, peolpe say that many things the Bible says not to do is actually ok now.
 

RickStudies

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I mean in the world, I dont know what everyone here believes. But I see this in the world, peolpe say that many things the Bible says not to do is actually ok now.
Yeah it`s all just a sign that we are in the last of the last days.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Yeah it`s all just a sign that we are in the last of the last days.
Yes, deception and evil is increase. More reason to shine His light!

and Ps 2 is very nice:

Psalms 2:1-12, " 1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” 7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” 10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
 

RickStudies

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Yes, deception and evil is increase. More reason to shine His light!

and Ps 2 is very nice:

Psalms 2:1-12, " 1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” 7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” 10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
I`m curious, how do you reconcile the Galatians controversy? I think it originates the another Jesus concept.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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I`m curious, how do you reconcile the Galatians controversy? I think it originates the another Jesus concept.
Well without touching on each verse, as that would be very time consuming, I would simply say much of what i have already.

I believe Jesus words are perfect and the pure teachings:

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life."

and that the Holy Spirit guides to these words/doctrine and that any that teach against Jesus words are the ones in error:

John 14:23-26, " 23 יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. 24 “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. 25 “These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. 26 “But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you."

As to Paul being the writer of Galations, I think I have heard so many differnt intrepratations of pauls letters that again any that are differnt than what Jesus taught in the fleash are error. (John 14:23-26 above)

and finally anyone who says Jesus words are obselete is in error because according to Him they are forever:

Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Now I have read in the other thread we talked in that ppl believe that Jesus words pre-cross are done away and "Paul is Jesus spokesmen"

However this goes against , directly against what Jesus Himself said.

If there is any other thing I have not answered you would have to be more specific, there is so much to read on these topics from so many ppl it is hard to cover every aspect.
 

RickStudies

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Well without touching on each verse, as that would be very time consuming, I would simply say much of what i have already.

I believe Jesus words are perfect and the pure teachings:

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life."

and that the Holy Spirit guides to these words/doctrine and that any that teach against Jesus words are the ones in error:

John 14:23-26, " 23 יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. 24 “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. 25 “These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. 26 “But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you."

As to Paul being the writer of Galations, I think I have heard so many differnt intrepratations of pauls letters that again any that are differnt than what Jesus taught in the fleash are error. (John 14:23-26 above)

and finally anyone who says Jesus words are obselete is in error because according to Him they are forever:

Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Now I have read in the other thread we talked in that ppl believe that Jesus words pre-cross are done away and "Paul is Jesus spokesmen"

However this goes against , directly against what Jesus Himself said.

If there is any other thing I have not answered you would have to be more specific, there is so much to read on these topics from so many ppl it is hard to cover every aspect.
And tricky to find one worth reading at times. Spam I calls it :alien:

So you deal with it by considering Galatians false scripture?
 

FollowtheShepherd

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And tricky to find one worth reading at times. Spam I calls it :alien:

So you deal with it by considering Galatians false scripture?
Well that is not what I said. To clarify a staement I made, I DEFINITYLY think ppl who say Jesus words are done away and Paul speaks in Jesus place is a false doctrine.

As to Galatians and every book of the Bible there are tests of a prophet and of a legal case in Deut 13 & 19.

Any writer of Scriptre HAS TO pass these tests.

Even Jesus Himself had to:

John 5:31-32, " 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true."

Deut 19 15 “A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established."

ALso the Deut 13 test.
 

RickStudies

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Well that is not what I said. To clarify a staement I made, I DEFINITYLY think ppl who say Jesus words are done away and Paul speaks in Jesus place is a false doctrine.

As to Galatians and every book of the Bible there are tests of a prophet and of a legal case in Deut 13 & 19.

Any writer of Scriptre HAS TO pass these tests.

Even Jesus Himself had to:

John 5:31-32, " 31 If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true."

Deut 19 15 “A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established."

ALso the Deut 13 test.
That`s not a direct answer. It`s common for Hebrew Roots people to reject the epistles. There`s no point in having a dialogue if you are going to do that.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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That`s not a direct answer. It`s common for Hebrew Roots people to reject the epistles. There`s no point in having a dialogue if you are going to do that.
Well I did answer. You put words into my mouth, I said I beleive when ppl throw out Jesus words pre cross that is error. He says His words will not pass and the the Holy SPirit will bring those words to mind. You said differnt words in my place then found me guilty of said words.

I believe Jesus, not ppls intrepratation of my words.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Again RS like I said in the other topic, I dont see how believeing Jesus words are to be followed and Him being the example to follow could cause a problem among Christians. Everyone I am in contact with believes Jesus words still and that He is our example. (again I have met catholics that say the Pope makes decree, but I do not beleive this)
 
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The jesus who came understood the purpose of the law that it was given so when he came, his people would know who he was and why he came.

why would you want to go back to that which can only condemn, and not to that which can save (the fulfiment of the law)
How did you get to the point of understanding that the OT is only for condemnation? That is a blind belief and a false accusation to those of us whose only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ and He alone is the root and nourishment to our branches. However, the branches will with goodness nourishing will produce good fruit, which is the evidence of what the branches are rooted in. Does bad seeds produce good fruit? Does good seeds, in good soil produce bad fruit?

What does good fruit look like?

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk_7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


How will you know the real Jesus since He is coming again a Second time if you refuse to know that Jesus and the Father are one, and that the Old Testament is not done away with but is the foundation of the scriptures?

The Old Testament is (also of many things and many layers of applications and understandings) so that Jesus' people will know who he is and He has come and we will not be deceived by the False Prophets and the antichrists.

Do you know and rehearse the LORD's Fall feasts? (Lev. 23) (Perhaps not because it is of Torah/OT/God's instructions and love letter to His people/and to Jesus' sheep) Do you study when and what the Feast of Trumpets is, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles and the Last Great Eighth Day?

If you refuse to know and understand these things, you are blind to what is coming in the future, the tribulations and the last days and the Day of the Lord. Obviously, I don't hold to replacement theology but believe Christians are to be added to the commonwealth of Israel sustained through the Root of our Faith (the work and passion of Jesus) so that we might bear Fruit of our Faith (good works by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the law written on our hearts - Jeremiah 31:31-33/Hebrews 8:6-13

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations (Gentiles), even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Ten men represents the House of Israel and the lost sheep. God divorced the House of Israel God cannot break His own law, namely the Deut. 24:1-4.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Jesus is God with us in the flesh and He made a renewed covenant for all the tribes and the foreigners who have accepted the God of Israel (Like Ruth did). Paul was given understanding to the mystery as well as ministry to the Gentiles /Nations/Ten tribes to bring them back into the house of the Lord/Kingdom. Romans 7 (Not for those who do not know the law)

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
 

Moses_Young

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Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Why didn't Jesus say while He was with the disciples that one day a man named Paul would come and tell the Gentiles that they don't need the Law?
Wasn't this referring to circumcision healing the part of the man that was circumcised, whereas Jesus healed the whole man? So if circumcision was allowed on the Sabbath, healing was even moreso? Jesus came to "fulfill the law", so circumcision, like the rest of the law, could not have been fulfilled until Messiah himself was cut off. Also, Jesus came first to the "lost sheep of Israel", so even if He could have abolished circumcision prior to the consumation, it would have been first to the Jews (not the Gentiles who were invited in after the Jews rejected their King). However, now that Messiah has come, and confirmed His covenant, I'd argue even circumcision isn't today required for Jews.

I don't think you have to keep any of the law, however, God does promise blessings when you seek to understand and practice what He has placed on your heart and curses for disobedience.
While I agree some aspects of the law do have benefits (e.g. health and hygiene benefits for circumcision, abstaining from pork and other unclean meats, washing etc.) isn't it spiritually dangerous to practice these to try to please God?

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

From the book of Acts we see Gentiles being told that they will learn the Law of Moses in the weekly synagogue meetings where the Torah is read.
Isn't it the opposite? Weren't the Jews concerned that Paul was forbidding them (Jews) to practice their customs such as circumcision, because he wasn't requiring Gentiles to be circumcised (or keep the rest of the law)?

Acts 21:21 - 25 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
 
Nov 11, 2018
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Isn't it the opposite? Weren't the Jews concerned that Paul was forbidding them (Jews) to practice their customs such as circumcision, because he wasn't requiring Gentiles to be circumcised (or keep the rest of the law)?

Acts 21:21 - 25 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 21: 25 should be read with

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

and balance all verses with words of Jesus:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


What's up with Moses' seat? Well in the synagogue is an actual chair made of stone and it is called Moses' seat. When one sits in the seat to read from the Torah (first five books of the Bible) that one may only read word for word that which was written. They may not make any comment or opinion while in the seat reading the Torah.

So the question becomes does what Jesus say apply to us today?
 

Guojing

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And tricky to find one worth reading at times. Spam I calls it :alien:

So you deal with it by considering Galatians false scripture?
Ahh, FTS sounds very much like a "Red letter Christian".
 

RickStudies

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Ahh, FTS sounds very much like a "Red letter Christian".
He is, doesn`t want to directly say it but he is. I flipped through the 8 hour long discussion about me in the Galatian thread yesterday and he said something to the effect that I was telling him what he believed because I picked up that he doesn`t believe the epistles o_O