True or False - "Another Jesus"?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,251
1,114
113
From the OT regarding circumcise:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Who was the following covenant made with?
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Man child at 8 days old is not capable of following the commandment. It's the parents who are in the commonwealth of Israel who are keeping the commandment. Even the stranger or alien had the same one law for all.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Do you remember when Jospeph had a private meeting with his brothers in Egypt? What did he show them to prove that he was their brother? His circumcision? That is correct. This is a covenant with God's people. Are you God's people?

From the NT regarding one very special flesh circumcision

Luk_2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

When Jesus was 12 years old how is it He could converse with the priests? Because the only scriptures at that time was the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, and because Jesus and the Father are one, Jesus was the author of the OT.

If Paul or anyone else teaches or preaches that the Torah is obsolete, then that person is not a follower of the true Messiah, but is following an "other Jesus". I strongly believe that Paul is just greatly misunderstood and that Satan is performing his great deception. The Torah carries "blessings and curses". Choose the right path and you are blessed. Choose the wrong way, and you will find that the deception is very strong delusions.

The Word Became Flesh
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Token or shadow of the covenant not the very covenant, not seen.

2 Corinthians 4:18 is needed to rightly divide the parables (we look to the things not seen the eternal hid from natural man not the things seen the temporal . Not a test to see how much pain a 8 year old can bear.

Big difference between moral laws (not shadows) and cerinimoinal law (shadows). One is subject to judgment till the last day . Not one jot or tittle will be removed (the letter of the law) The other kind of law not subject to judgenmet. . having another purpose .

More of a side ceremony show looking ahead to the bloody husband Christ a picture to the world...

Having received the end of the new faith that comes from hearing God not seen, Circumcision is a sign of the first born reserved for the birth of Jesus as the Son of man like the Sabbaths. Again they are ceremonial laws as shadows of the real not seen. They do not provide grace but provide a ongoing living hope to those who look to its outcome... grace coming to us.

1 Peter 8-11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Like other ceremonial laws the foundation must be searched out if we are to make any sense when looking at the parables.

It did not come about one day when someone decided to cause pain in 8 day old . The 8th day seems to be a period when blood coagulation is at its highest acording to some who have done reserch

Dr. Armand James Quick: “It is not a coincidence that the religion of Moses sets its ceremony for circumcision on the eighth day.” In other words, only on the eighth day of life do blood clotting substances reach their all-time high – well beyond the amount that will accompany a normal human being for the rest of his life


Moses as parable is used to represent the ceremonial Sabbath, a whole nation used to represent the time period God rested form his works. Two different reason in the two locations of the ten commandments.( Deuteronomy and Exodus) Both parables describe using different reasons provide the same spiritual understanding hid from natural man.

Moses upon entering Egypt was almost killed because he did not honor the ceremonial law used as a sign, like the blood around the door way to indicate the first born our bloody husband's suffering beforehand and the glory that followed as per 1 Peter 1 :11. You could say rescued by his gentile wife.

Exodus 4:18-24 Then Moses went back to Jethro, his father-in-law. Moses said to him, “Please let me go back to Egypt. I want to see if my people are still alive.” Jethro said to Moses, “Go in peace.” Then, while Moses was still in Midian, the Lord said to him, “It is safe for you to go back to Egypt now. The men who wanted to kill you are now dead.” So Moses put his wife and children on the donkey and returned to Egypt. He carried his walking stick with him—the walking stick with the power of God. While Moses was traveling back to Egypt, the Lord spoke to him, “When you talk to Pharaoh remember to show him all the miracles that I have given you the power to do. But I will cause Pharaoh to be very stubborn. He will not let the people go. Then you should say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son. And I am telling you to let my son go and worship me. If you refuse to let Israel go, then I will kill your firstborn son.’” On the way to Egypt, Moses stopped at a place to spend the night. The Lord met Moses at that place and tried to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint knife and circumcised her son. She took the skin and touched his feet. Then she said to Moses, “You are a bridegroom of blood to me. Zipporah said this because she had to circumcise her son. So God let Moses live

Like Abel the blood that represents the unseen Spirit of Christ cries out from the ground longing to be clothed with the incorruptible .

King James uses the phrase "bloody husband" twice as to Christ's suffering beforehand .Usually when mentioning twice it is used to emphasize.

Exodus 4:18-24 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said,
Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
 
Mar 14, 2011
65,223
11,742
113
The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them. He came preaching a gospel which virtually abolished the entire TaNaCh (Old Testament), the Laws of YHWY, and ridiculed and condemned all the religious leaders of the Jews.

To believe that the Old Testament has value in a modern-day Christianity is to be "legalistic". As if havings laws and following them are wrong!! In spite many scriptures of the Old Testament state they are forever, instead they are to be ignored, so says the learned.

Did Jesus come to make a new religion? When did the House of Judah make Jewish laws? Did Jesus hate the Pharisees and Sadducees for "adding to the laws"? Does that same Jesus hate the adding to and the taking away from the foundation of our Christian faith?

Are our beliefs handed down to us from seminary to pulpit? Does your leader/pastor tell you that Jesus is nothing like the God of the Old Testament? That Jesus nailed the Laws to the cross? That Peter's vision of unclean foods are now perfectly OK to eat, however we still call men "unclean" or "legalistic" or "forbidden"?

Just what does the Bible say is to be liefted up or what does the Bible say is on a lesser scale than what we are taught by educated seminary graduates in the church?

How many Christian denominations are there and which one is closest to being what the Bible teaches?

I really like the scriptural debates here on CC. At least we know people are reading their Bibles, right? And growing in maturity? So let's challenge the readers of the Bible and see if this clear as mud discussions can become as Living Waters.
The jesus who came understood the purpose of the law that it was given so when he came, his people would know who he was and why he came.

why would you want to go back to that which can only condemn, and not to that which can save (the fulfiment of the law)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
12,251
1,114
113
UnitedWithChrist said:
Regarding "second death", I believe it is a word-play with the "first resurrection". There is a first resurrection for all believers, and a second death for all unbelievers. Both of them happen at the same time.
I would offer. Yes the Amil position does not have to leave things in what it seems from my perspective is a state of confusion. . . guessing dates, and trying to create literal numbers when it comes to head count.

Mankind is quick to be one of the number as those the Bible say compare themselves to their own selves( Walking by sight) Going into battle when not commanded to trusting in numbers, and not going when commanded not trusting God. Showing in their action no faith that alone comes form hearing God. I think David was enticed in that way numbering the troupes. . . no faith in the word of God, creating time periods as dispensation etc. Looking for signs as wonders (a form of faith) finding none .

He will come on the last day, a unknown, signified by the word thousand.

"Last day", a phrase used 6 times in John alone is used to emphasize the timing of the twinkling of the eye, the thief in the night. We are warned and can watch for it like Noah .It could be today .There are no signs as wonders that must be fulfilled.

On the last day when those reigning with Christ on earth .They will rise with those who were dead asleep .The hibernation is over both in the twinkling of the eye receives the promise of our new corruptible body as the bride of Christ .

Death as the poisonous sting of law as to the letter. . . . kills . . . it will be tossed into the lake of fire. Never to rise and condemn another creation "to death".. "You will surely die" .

His wrath is clearly being revealed from heaven. . . we rest in Him . We have that reassurance in us form the comforter. . resting assured. . . it is not of us but of him we are yoked with. (Philippians 2:12-13)

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Thou shall surely die.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,720
1,848
113
The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them. He came preaching a gospel which virtually abolished the entire TaNaCh (Old Testament), the Laws of YHWY, and ridiculed and condemned all the religious leaders of the Jews.

To believe that the Old Testament has value in a modern-day Christianity is to be "legalistic". As if havings laws and following them are wrong!! In spite many scriptures of the Old Testament state they are forever, instead they are to be ignored, so says the learned.

Did Jesus come to make a new religion? When did the House of Judah make Jewish laws? Did Jesus hate the Pharisees and Sadducees for "adding to the laws"? Does that same Jesus hate the adding to and the taking away from the foundation of our Christian faith?

Are our beliefs handed down to us from seminary to pulpit? Does your leader/pastor tell you that Jesus is nothing like the God of the Old Testament? That Jesus nailed the Laws to the cross? That Peter's vision of unclean foods are now perfectly OK to eat, however we still call men "unclean" or "legalistic" or "forbidden"?

Just what does the Bible say is to be liefted up or what does the Bible say is on a lesser scale than what we are taught by educated seminary graduates in the church?

How many Christian denominations are there and which one is closest to being what the Bible teaches?

I really like the scriptural debates here on CC. At least we know people are reading their Bibles, right? And growing in maturity? So let's challenge the readers of the Bible and see if this clear as mud discussions can become as Living Waters.
Thats a load of questions there.
I will attempt to answer just one.,,when did the house of Judah make Jewish laws. Well it would have been when they added to the Bible (tanakh) the mishnah. The oral law which is a bunch of commentaries and then commentaries upon commentaries interpeting the scripture. This happened around 500 BC around the time the jews were captive in Babylon I think.

Correct me if Im wrong. The mishnah and its counterpart the gemera made up the Talmud. The Talmud was used as the jewish rabbis started referring to it more in their daily practice than actual scripture itself.

As a consequence these laws, rituals, traditions grew further and further away from what God intended.
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
The jesus who came understood the purpose of the law that it was given so when he came, his people would know who he was and why he came.

why would you want to go back to that which can only condemn, and not to that which can save (the fulfiment of the law)
Excuse me, but are you putting the entire OT in condemnation? There are many eternal and for ever instructions that set us apart from others who serve other Gods. The God of the OT wrote the Ten Words on stone, but not finding fault with the covenant, but finding fault with the people, did He choose to make a Renewed Covenant written on our hearts of flesh. Jesus had to come not just for one reason and one reason only, but on many levels He is understood. It's like the layers of an onion, the top layer is onion, but so are each subsequent layers still onions. I personally, will put out what I am thinking, but my heart says "Hold on, we are all on the same path, and some get to the center of the onion layers quicker or sooner than others. Judge not lest you be judged.

PS Jesus hasn't fulfilled the law, He still must fulfill the Fall Feasts at His Second Coming.
 
Mar 14, 2011
65,223
11,742
113
Excuse me, but are you putting the entire OT in condemnation?
Excuse me but did you read a word i said, i never even insinuated such nonsense

What is it with people who push oaw they can not understand basic concepts of what people are saying, my first suggestion to you is stop assuming and try to understand before you judge


There are many eternal and for ever instructions that set us apart from others who serve other Gods. The God of the OT wrote the Ten Words on stone, but not finding fault with the covenant, but finding fault with the people, did He choose to make a Renewed Covenant written on our hearts of flesh. Jesus had to come not just for one reason and one reason only, but on many levels He is understood. It's like the layers of an onion, the top layer is onion, but so are each subsequent layers still onions. I personally, will put out what I am thinking, but my heart says "Hold on, we are all on the same path, and some get to the center of the onion layers quicker or sooner than others. Judge not lest you be judged.

PS Jesus hasn't fulfilled the law, He still must fulfill the Fall Feasts at His Second Coming.
You mean the ministration of death written on stone paul spoke of?

If you do not think right now they condemn you, how can anyone help you?


Was paul wrong when he said the law is a schoolmaster whose purpose is to bring us to christ or did he state truth?
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
Here is another person's defining curse and blessings of God's Laws. Better than I can state it.

"The Law only does three things: defines sin (obedience or disobedience), curses us, and blesses us.

Once the Law defines sin for us, we then realize that we are under the curse of the Law (law of sin and death). We then realize that we require a Savior to remove that curse (second death). This is where grace offers us salvation to remove the curse of the Law in our faith.

Now that the curse is abolished after our faith is established, where does that leave us in respect to the “Law of God?”

We are still left with the “Law of God” defining sin (disobedience) and blessings (obedience), since the curse (Deuteronomy 11:26) is now gone. This is why Scripture focuses so much on the blessings of the “Law of God” for the obedient believer.
(Psalm 112:1, 119:1-2, 128:1; Proverbs 8:32; Isaiah 56:2; Matthew 5:6, 5:10; Luke 11:28; James 1:25; 1 Peter 3:14; Revevlation 22:14).

It is the unbeliever that is still under the curse of the law (second death)(law of sin and death). The Spiritual mind is after the “Law of God” (freedom from sin), and thus receives all of the blessings in obedience to God’s Law.

Clearly God's Law is not a curse, but we cursed ourselves by not obeying it (law of sin and death). That is why we need a Savior; the Savior did not come to abolish God's Law, but to take away the curse we deserve from not obeying."
 
Mar 14, 2011
65,223
11,742
113
Here is another person's defining curse and blessings of God's Laws. Better than I can state it.

"The Law only does three things: defines sin (obedience or disobedience), curses us, and blesses us.

Once the Law defines sin for us, we then realize that we are under the curse of the Law (law of sin and death). We then realize that we require a Savior to remove that curse (second death). This is where grace offers us salvation to remove the curse of the Law in our faith.

Now that the curse is abolished after our faith is established, where does that leave us in respect to the “Law of God?”

We are still left with the “Law of God” defining sin (disobedience) and blessings (obedience), since the curse (Deuteronomy 11:26) is now gone. This is why Scripture focuses so much on the blessings of the “Law of God” for the obedient believer.
(Psalm 112:1, 119:1-2, 128:1; Proverbs 8:32; Isaiah 56:2; Matthew 5:6, 5:10; Luke 11:28; James 1:25; 1 Peter 3:14; Revevlation 22:14).

It is the unbeliever that is still under the curse of the law (second death)(law of sin and death). The Spiritual mind is after the “Law of God” (freedom from sin), and thus receives all of the blessings in obedience to God’s Law.

Clearly God's Law is not a curse, but we cursed ourselves by not obeying it (law of sin and death). That is why we need a Savior; the Savior did not come to abolish God's Law, but to take away the curse we deserve from not obeying."
Cursed is EVERYONE who does not continue in all things, (paul)
cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word (moses)
If we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point, we are guilty of the whole law (in effect cursed) james

I think scruptire is quite clear. The law curses every soul ever born, because all have sinned.
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
Cursed is EVERYONE who does not continue in all things, (paul)
cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word (moses)
If we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point, we are guilty of the whole law (in effect cursed) james


I think scruptire is quite clear. The law curses every soul ever born, because all have sinned.
Gal 3:10 For those who rely on the works of the law are still under the curse, for as it is written, cursed is everyone who does not practice everything which is written in the book of the Torah. (Deut. 27:26)

Curses from Mount Ebal
Deu 27:9-26 And Moses and the priests, the Levites, spoke to all Israel, saying, Keep silence, and hear, O Israel: Today you have become the people of YAHWEH your Elohim. Therefore you shall obey the voice of YAHWEH your Elohim and do His commandments and His statutes which I command you today. And Moses charged the people the same day, saying, These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Joseph, and Benjamin. And these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali. And the Levites shall answer, and shall say to all the men of Israel with a loud voice: Cursed is the man who makes a carved and cast image, an abomination to YAHWEH, the work of a crafts-man's hands, and who sets it up in a secret place! And all the people shall answer and say, Amen! Cursed is he who dishonors his father or his mother! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who removes his neighbor's landmark! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who makes the blind to wander out of the way! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who perverts the judgment of the alien, the fatherless, and widow! And all the people shall say, Amen!
ursed is he who lies with his father's wife, because he uncovers his father's skirt! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who lies with any kind of animal! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who lies with his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who lies with his mother-in-law! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who strikes his neighbor secretly! And all the people shall say, Amen! Cursed is he who takes a bribe to strike a life, to shed innocent blood! And all the people shall say, Amen! 26 Cursed is he who does not carry out to do all the Words of this Torah, to do them! And all the people shall say, Amen!

Jas 2:8-13 If you truly fulfill the royal Law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. (Lev. 19:18)
9 But if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin; and ye are convicted by the Torah, as transgressors of the Torah.
10 For whoever shall keep all the Torah, even though he fail in but one statute, he has become guilty as to all of it. (Deut. 27:26)
11 For He who said, You shall not commit adultery, also said, You shall not murder. But if you do not commit adultery, but commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the torah. (Ex. 20:14, 13; Deut. 5:18, 17; Deut 27:26)
12 So speak and act as men being about to be judged through a Law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be without mercy to the one not showing mercy. And by mercy you will be raised above judgment.

I agree 100% "that all have sinned".

Our root of our faith is the precious perfect sinless lamb of God and His passion to save all who will receive His Work on the cross.

However, we may disagree to what our fruit of our faith entails. For me, 1Jn 3:4 Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is the breaking of the Torah.

Mat_7:23 And then I will declare to them, from everlasting, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" (Psa. 6:8)
Tit_2:14 who gave Himself on our behalf, "That He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify a special people for Himself, zealous of good works." (Psa. 130:8; Eze. 37:23; Deut. 14:2)
Heb_1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this, YAHWEH, Your Elohim, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows."(Psa. 45:6, 7)

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved he will receive the crown of life which YAHWEH promised to the ones loving Him.

Mat_22:37 And Yahshua said to him, "You shall love YAHWEH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." (Deut. 6:5)
Mar_12:30 and you shall love YAHWEH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)
Luk_10:27 And answering, he said, "You shall love YAHWEH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind," and "your neighbor as yourself." (Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18)
 

Moses_Young

Active member
Sep 15, 2019
200
99
28
From the OT regarding circumcise:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Who was the following covenant made with?
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Man child at 8 days old is not capable of following the commandment. It's the parents who are in the commonwealth of Israel who are keeping the commandment. Even the stranger or alien had the same one law for all.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Do you remember when Jospeph had a private meeting with his brothers in Egypt? What did he show them to prove that he was their brother? His circumcision? That is correct. This is a covenant with God's people. Are you God's people?

From the NT regarding one very special flesh circumcision

Luk_2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

When Jesus was 12 years old how is it He could converse with the priests? Because the only scriptures at that time was the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, and because Jesus and the Father are one, Jesus was the author of the OT.

If Paul or anyone else teaches or preaches that the Torah is obsolete, then that person is not a follower of the true Messiah, but is following an "other Jesus". I strongly believe that Paul is just greatly misunderstood and that Satan is performing his great deception. The Torah carries "blessings and curses". Choose the right path and you are blessed. Choose the wrong way, and you will find that the deception is very strong delusions.
Did I misunderstand? Are you saying that circumcision is for Christians today (from a religious, not merely a medical or social perspective)? Or are you talking about circumcision of the heart? Wasn't the requirement for circumcision done away with in Galatians?
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
Did I misunderstand? Are you saying that circumcision is for Christians today (from a religious, not merely a medical or social perspective)? Or are you talking about circumcision of the heart? Wasn't the requirement for circumcision done away with in Galatians?
God circumcises our hearts. If however, after God has circumcised your heart and you should have a male baby son and desire in your now circumcised heart (having the law written on your heart) to circumcise your son on the 8th day, is that "religious" or just obedience? My daughters circumcised their sons while still in the hospital on day 2 and the other on day 5. Neither of my daughters care at all for God's Word and do not have their hearts circumcised. I guess these grandsons where done for medical and social reasons. I never had a male child, and God's words didn't get written on my heart until around 2008/2009.
 

Moses_Young

Active member
Sep 15, 2019
200
99
28
God circumcises our hearts. If however, after God has circumcised your heart and you should have a male baby son and desire in your now circumcised heart (having the law written on your heart) to circumcise your son on the 8th day, is that "religious" or just obedience? My daughters circumcised their sons while still in the hospital on day 2 and the other on day 5. Neither of my daughters care at all for God's Word and do not have their hearts circumcised. I guess these grandsons where done for medical and social reasons. I never had a male child, and God's words didn't get written on my heart until around 2008/2009.
But doesn't Galatians say we don't need to circumcise for religious reasons anymore?

I know that most males are circumcised these days (even if only for medical or social reasons), but if one who had not been circumcised had his heart circumcised, should he be circumcised? If so, doesn't Paul count him as accursed in Galatians, and under the whole law? If not, isn't it hypocrisy to circumcise his sons while he is yet uncircumcised? Or isn't it hypocrisy for a mother to circumcise her boys if her husband is not circumcised?

What about all the other laws? Where does one draw the line as to which laws have to be kept? Why is circumcision obedience, but sacrificing bulls and rams is not? Or is it?
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
But doesn't Galatians say we don't need to circumcise for religious reasons anymore?

I know that most males are circumcised these days (even if only for medical or social reasons), but if one who had not been circumcised had his heart circumcised, should he be circumcised? If so, doesn't Paul count him as accursed in Galatians, and under the whole law? If not, isn't it hypocrisy to circumcise his sons while he is yet uncircumcised? Or isn't it hypocrisy for a mother to circumcise her boys if her husband is not circumcised?

What about all the other laws? Where does one draw the line as to which laws have to be kept? Why is circumcision obedience, but sacrificing bulls and rams is not? Or is it?
I don't think you have to keep any of the law, however, God does promise blessings when you seek to understand and practice what He has placed on your heart and curses for disobedience. From the book of Acts we see Gentiles being told that they will learn the Law of Moses in the weekly synagogue meetings where the Torah is read. Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Jesus also mentions
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

I saw a teaching regarding this "Moses' seat" and that the Rabbi/or one reading cannot add or takeaway from the Words of the Torah while sitting in the Moses' seat. However, once the scriptures are read and the reader stands up, he may make any comments or opinions he so wishes, even if it contradicts God's Words from the Holy scriptures. This is why Jesus said observe and do whatsoever they bid from the seat, but do not follow their example, for they do not do what they say in Moses' seat.
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Why didn't Jesus say while He was with the disciples that one day a man named Paul would come and tell the Gentiles that they don't need the Law?
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
What do you suppose the difference between "Jewish Law" and "Moses' Law" is? The Jews have an added book I believe is called the Talmud, a book of interpretations of what is meant in scripture and that the Rabbi's and teachers have greater power than God and that their laws are dominant. This is what Jesus hated about the Pharisees and Saducees, their laws making God's laws of none effect.


Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu_12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.


Act_3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. (Hint: we call this prophet Jesus, son of David.)
 
Nov 11, 2018
81
24
8
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

What things that you could not be justified by the law of Moses?

"intentional sin" vs "unintentional sin" intentional wrongdoing and harm"
synonyms: deliberate · calculated · conscious · done on purpose · intended · planned · meant · considered · studied · knowing · willful · wanton · purposeful · purposive · purposed · premeditated

The idea of unintentional sin in Leviticus 4 is related to sin by straying or by accident. In these cases an offering could be made. However, there was no offering available for when a person sinned intentionally. Numbers 15:30–31 states, “Anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.” Those who rebelled in committing intentional sin were to be cut off or separated from the people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
12,314
6,749
113
73
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

What things that you could not be justified by the law of Moses?

"intentional sin" vs "unintentional sin" intentional wrongdoing and harm"
synonyms: deliberate · calculated · conscious · done on purpose · intended · planned · meant · considered · studied · knowing · willful · wanton · purposeful · purposive · purposed · premeditated

The idea of unintentional sin in Leviticus 4 is related to sin by straying or by accident. In these cases an offering could be made. However, there was no offering available for when a person sinned intentionally. Numbers 15:30–31 states, “Anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.” Those who rebelled in committing intentional sin were to be cut off or separated from the people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
You are doing well Grace, hang in there. Don't let anyone discourage you! 5thumbsup.gif
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
Joh_7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Why didn't Jesus say while He was with the disciples that one day a man named Paul would come and tell the Gentiles that they don't need the Law?
Because God`s real plan was a secret and Paul is the one chosen to reveal it.
 

RickStudies

Active member
Sep 10, 2019
782
222
43
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

What things that you could not be justified by the law of Moses?

"intentional sin" vs "unintentional sin" intentional wrongdoing and harm"
synonyms: deliberate · calculated · conscious · done on purpose · intended · planned · meant · considered · studied · knowing · willful · wanton · purposeful · purposive · purposed · premeditated

The idea of unintentional sin in Leviticus 4 is related to sin by straying or by accident. In these cases an offering could be made. However, there was no offering available for when a person sinned intentionally. Numbers 15:30–31 states, “Anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.” Those who rebelled in committing intentional sin were to be cut off or separated from the people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26 is addressing the sin of apostasy, see Hebrews 10:29
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
63
The Jesus of modern-day Christianity all too often seems to be One who hated His Father's Law, especially the Sabbath day, and abolished it. He hated the holy days of YHWY, and abolished them. He came preaching a gospel which virtually abolished the entire TaNaCh (Old Testament), the Laws of YHWY, and ridiculed and condemned all the religious leaders of the Jews.

To believe that the Old Testament has value in a modern-day Christianity is to be "legalistic". As if havings laws and following them are wrong!! In spite many scriptures of the Old Testament state they are forever, instead they are to be ignored, so says the learned.

Did Jesus come to make a new religion? When did the House of Judah make Jewish laws? Did Jesus hate the Pharisees and Sadducees for "adding to the laws"? Does that same Jesus hate the adding to and the taking away from the foundation of our Christian faith?

Are our beliefs handed down to us from seminary to pulpit? Does your leader/pastor tell you that Jesus is nothing like the God of the Old Testament? That Jesus nailed the Laws to the cross? That Peter's vision of unclean foods are now perfectly OK to eat, however we still call men "unclean" or "legalistic" or "forbidden"?

Just what does the Bible say is to be liefted up or what does the Bible say is on a lesser scale than what we are taught by educated seminary graduates in the church?

How many Christian denominations are there and which one is closest to being what the Bible teaches?

I really like the scriptural debates here on CC. At least we know people are reading their Bibles, right? And growing in maturity? So let's challenge the readers of the Bible and see if this clear as mud discussions can become as Living Waters.
But if we actually read Jesus words, He never did away with the Law but rather showed the proper way it is to be followed:

Matthew 5:17-20, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

1 John 2:3-7King James Version (KJV)“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”

He even says because ppl toss the Law out is why there is no love:

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

We must abide in Him...