Two main issues

[wattie]

“Thanks for the reply. I'm saying all the good things we do like water baptism, forgiving others”

So you are saying even though Jesus says forgiving others or not forgiving others means you will be or won’t be forgiven your position is that’s not relevant to salvation ?

and even though Jesus says this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re saying this also has no saving value ? Having our sins remitted and receiving the Holy Ghost ? Is that related to this salvation you’re talking about ?


“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see no difference in the ones who heard what Peter was saying and got baptized ? And those who didn’t ?

It’s like saying Noah didn’t need to do what God said to do to be saved by faith or like Abraham didn’t need to go where god said to go to be blessed or like saying israel didn’t need to obey the law to keep their inheritance secure

christians aren’t those who now don’t need to do anything , they are those who hear and learn from Jesus what to do and they believe and follow beginning to apply those things to life

whether the chicken or egg comes first is irrelevant Christian’s are actually taught once you believe to now understand you have to change your ways also not given a free pass to continue in sin but given a road map out of sin

the answer isn’t “ now we don’t have anything to do “ it’s now we can understand what gods saying will save our souls believe him and be saved

God commands us to do good works after salvation.. but the good works don't attain salvation. They can't.. because sin remains in us no matter what we do before or after salvation. We can reduce sin in our lives after salvation of course.. and that is what God wants.. but it's all about Him.. not us.

Salvation about Him... all about Him... not us. And the service to God.. all about Him.. not us.

For the verses about water baptism.. as per other threads on this.. there are many many many others verses without water baptism.. about receiving eternal life.

So.. you'd put the water baptism alongside those verses to get the right picture.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh brother, another "if you make the effort to pray you're working for salvation" bit of nonsense.

Lordship salvation is taught by MacArthur, but not as has been suggested here. It more closely follows the thinking of James 2...faith without works is dead. He isn't trying to backend works into salvation; rather, he is saying if your life doesn't reflect obedience, it probably lacks real faith.

 

[ResidentAlien]

God commands us to do good works after salvation.. but the good works don't attain salvation. They can't.. because sin remains in us no matter what we do before or after salvation. We can reduce sin in our lives after salvation of course.. and that is what God wants.. but it's all about Him.. not us.

Salvation about Him... all about Him... not us. And the service to God.. all about Him.. not us.

I agree; but I don't hear anyone saying anything to the contrary. Are you saying that because someone says "turn from sin" rather than "repent of sin" they're teaching works? I've never heard any preacher, no matter how outlandish in other respects, say we must get the sin out of our lives before we can be saved. I'm wondering if maybe you're reading a lot more into it than what is actually there.

I'll tell you what I've I've noticed a lot more of these days, and that's "works hunters." It seems like nearly every week someone else is in here making more and more ridiculous claims about people trying to "earn salvation." They seem to be able to find works salvation under every rock.

 

[John146]

Lordship salvation is taught by MacArthur, but not as has been suggested here. It more closely follows the thinking of James 2...faith without works is dead. He isn't trying to backend works into salvation; rather, he is saying if your life doesn't reflect obedience, it probably lacks real faith.

I would say rather, if your life lacks living for the Lord, then you lack true discipleship.

 

[Cameron143]

I would say rather, if your life lacks living for the Lord, then you lack true discipleship.

I think he takes it the further step, but your view still is in opposition to the OP.

 

[wattie]

I agree; but I don't hear anyone saying anything to the contrary. Are you saying that because someone says "turn from sin" rather than "repent of sin" they're teaching works? I've never heard any preacher, no matter how outlandish in other respects, say we must get the sin out of our lives before we can be saved. I'm wondering if maybe you're reading a lot more into it than what is actually there.

I'll tell you what I've I've noticed a lot more of these days, and that's "works hunters." It seems like nearly every week someone else is in here making more and more ridiculous claims about people trying to "earn salvation." They seem to be able to find works salvation under every rock.

True true. .. what I'm getting at is challenging someone on their salvation.. based on their works.

When getting saved in the first place hadn't anything to do with works.

That's what the likes of MacArthur, Comfort and also Paul Washer will do.

Of course there are false converts .. who never get saved. But 'fruit inspection' takes away from Jesus Christ. It isn't brotherly kindness, daily faith that got them saved.. so be careful when you question someone on their fruit.

That's what I'm getting at

 

[Nehemiah6]

“Salvation isn’t the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it’s the fruit of actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile… The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny.”

What should have been included in the above is that justification is by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. That is salvation. But when you take into consideration that salvation includes both justification and sanctification, then the above quote is fully applicable. Faith without works is dead, and salvation is based upon a wholehearted turning from sins and idols to God and Christ. If believing is merely an intellectual exercise, then that is not genuine faith.

the way you explain it here is fine. But if Lord.. means 'I am reducing sin in my life and now Jesus can save me'... i.e. making Jesus Lord over every area of of your life.. before you can be saved.. then that's works for salvation.

This sounds rather nonsensical. This would be putting the cart before the horse, and that is similar to the Calvinistic notion that people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. However people respond to the Gospel as they are. The changed life comes only after repentance and faith, which is then followed by regeneration, and a new creature in Christ.

 

[Fundaamental]

God commands us to do good works after salvation.. but the good works don't attain salvation. They can't.. because sin remains in us no matter what we do before or after salvation. We can reduce sin in our lives after salvation of course.. and that is what God wants.. but it's all about Him.. not us.

Salvation about Him... all about Him... not us. And the service to God.. all about Him.. not us.

For the verses about water baptism.. as per other threads on this.. there are many many many others verses without water baptism.. about receiving eternal life.

So.. you'd put the water baptism alongside those verses to get the right picture.

Hi, what is a false Convert, is it somebody who believes there saved but there not, or somebody who is unsure whether there saved.

I've been reading the bible and it seems that salvation came to the Jews first.

The Jews had all believed in the father first, thus all reducing sin in there life first, thus being trained on understanding and obedience and thus being able to believe the reason why the Messiah came,

How can you have full belief in the son without first believing the father,.
Jesus said these words to all Jews, you have believed in the Father now believe in me.

See there is no way the Jew could fully believe the son without first believing the father.

That's how I read it, but it makes sense that being able to believe in truth comes from obedience. Which came to the Jew first then the Gentile. You can't dismiss 40 years of training and call this a false Convert, because it was works for salvation.

40 years of training was for works of obedience to be able to believe in the son also.

And this is not simply understanding works and faith, but practising works and faith for 40 years to the point where the natural man can believe fully in the father and then in the son,


You can't eat your cake befor it's cooked.

 

[wattie]

Hi, what is a false Convert, is it somebody who believes there saved but there not, or somebody who is unsure whether there saved.

I've been reading the bible and it seems that salvation came to the Jews first.

The Jews had all believed in the father first, thus all reducing sin in there life first, thus being trained on understanding and obedience and thus being able to believe the reason why the Messiah came,

How can you have full belief in the son without first believing the father,.
Jesus said these words to all Jews, you have believed in the Father now believe in me.

See there is no way the Jew could fully believe the son without first believing the father.

That's how I read it, but it makes sense that being able to believe in truth comes from obedience. Which came to the Jew first then the Gentile. You can't dismiss 40 years of training and call this a false Convert, because it was works for salvation.

40 years of training was for works of obedience to be able to believe in the son also.

And this is not simply understanding works and faith, but practising works and faith for 40 years to the point where the natural man can believe fully in the father and then in the son,


You can't eat your cake befor it's cooked.

There is being convicted and coming to learn Jesus is God..that He died and rose again.. coming to faith in Him.

I agree with that.. but the salvation point isn't when they started searching or when they were sad for their sin. It's solely when they believed on Jesus Christ.

No more no less.

Most people take time to believe.. thats normal. But the point of belief and being saved is instant.

 

[glf]

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

"For without faith it is impossible to please him, but we must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Faith is a miracle from Jesus that is given to those who believe God's word in their day of salvation and who respond to the Holy Spirit's call and conviction with a godly sorrow, calling upon the Lord Jesus for forgiveness.
The seed of Faith is given by the Lord Jesus to those who choose to believe, repent, and walk with God. The Lord wants us, to want to do his will. Perhaps that's why, "the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Our Faith is then affected by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who uses our devotions in Scripture to 1) reveal Jesus to us, Spirit to spirit, and we learn of him. 2) increase our faith with exceedingly precious promises. 3) fulfil the promise of the New Covenant by writing the Lord's law and commandments upon the tables of our hearts and minds, transforming each of us into the moral image of Christ; some thirty-fold, some sixty-fold, and some a hundred-fold.
"And this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." Thank you, Jesus!

 

[ResidentAlien]

When getting saved in the first place hadn't anything to do with works. That's what the likes of MacArthur, Comfort and also Paul Washer will do.

Are you saying this based on their theological disposition or because you've actually heard or read them saying it? If you have a specific instance where someone said you must get the sin out of your life first before you can be saved could you please post it or post a link.

 

[Fundaamental]

There is being convicted and coming to learn Jesus is God..that He died and rose again.. coming to faith in Him.

I agree with that.. but the salvation point isn't when they started searching or when they were sad for their sin. It's solely when they believed on Jesus Christ.

No more no less.

Most people take time to believe.. thats normal. But the point of belief and being saved is instant.

Good ok so a false Convert is somebody who believes being saved is not instant, or I think your refering, a false Convert believes they can't recieve salvation until there race is run.

However is such person equating works for salvation ? Or are they simply unsure about being saved.

Some equations, with a thought.

The seed of Adam which had been corrupted was so severe it would be many generations later befor mankind could receive a new seed in the form of Jesus,

However even tho Jesus was with us For 33 years how was it befor his elect deciples could recieve his new seed.

How long did Jesus minister to his decipels befor they where able to recieve the new seed.

Now some thoughts

God knew that all mankind would have rejected the seed of Jesus if he had sent him earlier, so there was no point.

Secondly God knew that even the most obedient men if all would still need time to believe in his son befor accepting his seed. Which was the gift of the holy spirit.

So the question is are all people today as obedient as the 12 decipels where to the father, and have all people received 15 years or of ministry from Jesus befor being asked if they believe in both the father and the son.

Look at doubting Thomas as an example, All tho he did not believe, The appropriate cause of action was to help him to believe.

I see that some believers mock new believers here. I've just been called a troll for my very first friendly Joke. I've looked at his profile and he says he's a Christian.

I wonders if I'm a practising Christian but unsure about me being a born again Christian.

Maybe if there was an option for practising Christian I would choose that option.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

If you are not submitted to Jesus as your Lord are you saved? (Being good at it or not)
Baptism is what Jesus and subsequently his disciples said it is. Trusting the word is part and product of being submitted to Jesus, which is what conversion is; going from rebellion against God amd his word to submitted to Him by his word.

 

[glf]

If you are not submitted to Jesus as your Lord are you saved? (Being good at it or not)
Baptism is what Jesus and subsequently his disciples said it is. Trusting the word is part and product of being submitted to Jesus, which is what conversion is; going from rebellion against God amd his word to submitted to Him by his word.

Jesus said, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and the Father will love him, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

Salvation clears our way to the Lord by removing our sin from before him. Once sin is removed, we are able to commune with the Lord who is found in the word of God by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who also uses the scripture to fulfill the promise of the New Covenant, which is to write the Lord's laws and statutes into our hearts and minds so that we might be obedient to the Lord; where Israel under the Old Covenant did not.

This putting of the Lord's laws into our hearts and minds purifies our consciences so that we more and more see sin as the Lord does. As the Lord sets us free from our sin, we're told in Heb 10, "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
PTL!

 

[HeIsHere]

There is being convicted and coming to learn Jesus is God..that He died and rose again.. coming to faith in Him.

I agree with that.. but the salvation point isn't when they started searching or when they were sad for their sin. It's solely when they believed on Jesus Christ.

No more no less.

Most people take time to believe.. thats normal. But the point of belief and being saved is instant.

Amen Wattie!

Lordship salvationists will preach that the performance of good works, or the promise of good works, or the evidence of good works must accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

Yet no one knows how much evidence is required? It is definitely backloading works onto the Gospel.

No person needs to promise to make Jesus their Lord to be saved, He is Lord, salvation is not a "give in order to receive" salvation is not a bi-lateral contract.

The words of their sermons and books make this belief very clear.

Another tactic of these teachers is to tell people to look to themselves for assurance of salvation, instead we should trust God's Holy word.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24
No lordship required, no turn from sin, no be good and then come.

 

[Magenta]

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal
life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

John 5:24

 

[wattie]

Amen Wattie!

Lordship salvationists will preach that the performance of good works, or the promise of good works, or the evidence of good works must accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.

Yet no one knows how much evidence is required? It is definitely backloading works onto the Gospel.

No person needs to promise to make Jesus their Lord to be saved, He is Lord, salvation is not a "give in order to receive" salvation is not a bi-lateral contract.

The words of their sermons and books make this belief very clear.

Another tactic of these teachers is to tell people to look to themselves for assurance of salvation, instead we should trust God's Holy word.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24
No lordship required, no turn from sin, no be good and then come.

That is the thing, is at salvation they tend to promote making a promise to Jesus of a changed life from themselves. The turning from sin.. from themselves. So the salvation is conditional on performance from THEM. This is the problem. This is the issue.

 

[ResidentAlien]

That is the thing, is at salvation they tend to promote making a promise to Jesus of a changed life from themselves. The turning from sin.. from themselves. So the salvation is conditional on performance from THEM. This is the problem. This is the issue.

You have to repent; you have to turn from your sin; yes, you have to be serious about changing. However, the Lord doesn't look at a person's outward performance but their heart, their sincerity. He doesn't expect a person to be perfect but He does expect them to be willing to change. If someone is just mouthing some words in hope to get saved then yeah, they're trusting in their own merit. But if someone says the words and means them He will save them.

What do you suppose the Lord would think if someone knelt before Him and said: Lord, save me. I have no intention of changing; I have no interest in stopping sinning; I just don't want to go to Hell. Unfortunately, that's actually what most people these days think salvation is.

What you're saying sounds like dogma taken to the extreme and has become devoid of any common sense.

 

[Magenta]

What do you suppose the Lord would think if someone knelt before Him and said: Lord, save me. I have no intention of changing; I have no interest in stopping sinning; I just don't want to go to Hell. Essentially, that's actually what most people these days think salvation is.

Do you have a source for this? How would anyone determine that this is what most people think salvation is, anyways? .

 

[HeIsHere]

John 5:24

This is just a side bar.

I really like the flow of colors in this panel, just wondering why she only has one earing?