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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,812
6,459
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62
#61
The instruction on the day of Pentecost was very clear "Repent AND be baptized for the forgiveness of sin,,, Could anything be clearer than that? Note - Repent AND be baptised.
When they HEARD this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEARTS, and said men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO?
How did they hear except their ears were opened as the word of God was preached...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?
What caused their heart to be pricked? Was it not the work of the Holy Spirit to convince them of sin?
What response should attend a genuine act of God upon the heart, mind and will of an individual? John the Baptist called the Pharisees who came for his baptism to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. What are the fruits of true salvation? Repentance and baptism. Fruits of...not seeds producing.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,222
3,566
113
#62
The most recent version of The Four Laws by Campus Crusade For Christ (Now called Cru) I could find is here: https://campusministry.org/docs/tools/FourSpiritualLaws.pdf

It makes a clear presentation of the gospel with no requirement to promise to do good works before you can be saved. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The introduction says:

"What does it take to begin a relationship with God? Devote yourself to unselfish religious deeds? Become a better person so that God will accept you? You may be surprised that none of those things will work. But God has made it very clear in the Bible how we can know Him. These principles will explain how you can personally begin a relationship with God, right now, through Jesus Christ."​
And the suggested prayer at the end says:

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."​
Groups or people who use this pamphlet might distort it for their own purposes, but the pamphlet itself is about as spot on as it gets.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,987
372
83
#63
The most recent version of The Four Laws by Campus Crusade For Christ (Now called Cru) I could find is here: https://campusministry.org/docs/tools/FourSpiritualLaws.pdf

It makes a clear presentation of the gospel with no requirement to promise to do good works before you can be saved. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The introduction says:

"What does it take to begin a relationship with God? Devote yourself to unselfish religious deeds? Become a better person so that God will accept you? You may be surprised that none of those things will work. But God has made it very clear in the Bible how we can know Him. These principles will explain how you can personally begin a relationship with God, right now, through Jesus Christ."​
And the suggested prayer at the end says:

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."​
Groups or people who use this pamphlet might distort it for their own purposes, but the pamphlet itself is about as spot on as it gets.
I fail to see the relevance of your comment,
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#64
The most recent version of The Four Laws by Campus Crusade For Christ (Now called Cru) I could find is here: https://campusministry.org/docs/tools/FourSpiritualLaws.pdf

It makes a clear presentation of the gospel with no requirement to promise to do good works before you can be saved. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The introduction says:

"What does it take to begin a relationship with God? Devote yourself to unselfish religious deeds? Become a better person so that God will accept you? You may be surprised that none of those things will work. But God has made it very clear in the Bible how we can know Him. These principles will explain how you can personally begin a relationship with God, right now, through Jesus Christ."​
And the suggested prayer at the end says:

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."​
Groups or people who use this pamphlet might distort it for their own purposes, but the pamphlet itself is about as spot on as it gets.
Okay.. actually that is very straight on the gospel. My bad. Maybe the tract i had was a bit old. Apologies to CRU.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,754
2,246
113
#65
Okay.. actually that is very straight on the gospel. My bad. Maybe the tract i had was a bit old. Apologies to CRU.
I think you do not need to apologize.

This prayer is convoluted, again requiring the person to make a commitment, and making Jesus the throne of their life. Very typical Lordship salvation

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."

Then their solution is to “take self off and put Jesus on the throne of our life.”

Lordship salvation
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#66
I think you do not need to apologize.

This prayer is convoluted, again requiring the person to make a commitment, and making Jesus the throne of their life. Very typical Lordship salvation

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."

Then their solution is to “take self off and put Jesus on the throne of our life.”

Lordship salvation
Hmmm.. yeah I can see that. Not as bad as some ..but you are right there.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#67
I think you do not need to apologize.

This prayer is convoluted, again requiring the person to make a commitment, and making Jesus the throne of their life. Very typical Lordship salvation

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."

Then their solution is to “take self off and put Jesus on the throne of our life.”

Lordship salvation
Yeah . . Like I posted before, the second tract from them, if you struggle with sin.. is 'putting Jesus back on the throne' .. so they assume to start with you are committing to your own effort in making Him Lord over every area of your life.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,738
29,098
113
#68
Yeah . . Like I posted before, the second tract from them, if you struggle with sin.. is 'putting Jesus back on the throne'
.. so they assume to start with you are committing to your own effort in making Him Lord over every area of your life.
I listen to a Christian talk radio station on my phone throughout the day while I am
at my main work stations... and I heard Johnny Mac teaching on the prodigal son,
taking some liberties with the text to tell us "what it really meant" that the older
son was out in the field, neither looking for nor awaiting the return of his errant
younger brother. There's always been something about that man I just cannot warm to...
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#69
I listen to a Christian talk radio station on my phone throughout the day while I am
at my main work stations... and I heard Johnny Mac teaching on the prodigal son,
taking some liberties with the text to tell us "what it really meant" that the older
son was out in the field, neither looking for nor awaiting the return of his errant
younger brother. There's always been something about that man I just cannot warm to...
Yeah, this is such a subtle thing. I mean.. you look at the 4 spiritual laws booklet and it has receiving Christ as Saviour.. it has believing He died and rose again.. it has asking for forgiveness of your sins.

The difference comes when what it is meant by turning from sin and putting Jesus on the throne. It's sort of hidden in there. That is why it is hard for me to explain why Paul Washer, John McArthur et al are pushing Lordship salvation. They still have believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But it's how much of self is mixed in there in how they say someone is saved.

I'm not saying someone who reads a tract like the 4 spiritual laws can't or won't get saved.. but just that it can lead to a dependence on self performance to maintain salvation.. rather than knowing you are saved purely by what Jesus has done.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
43
#70
More believers should be baptized. It's true we have slacked off in getting new believers immersed.

But it's vitally important to get salvation right. It's got to be all Jesus' doing and not by self effort. It has to be, because a lost person is always lost until they believe. Any works done before conversion are putting perfume on a corpse.
Biblically you should be baptized immediately, that is why it says who believes and is baptized. Because there is to be no delay in these two. Same thing.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
43
#71
I listen to a Christian talk radio station on my phone throughout the day while I am
at my main work stations... and I heard Johnny Mac teaching on the prodigal son,
taking some liberties with the text to tell us "what it really meant" that the older
son was out in the field, neither looking for nor awaiting the return of his errant
younger brother. There's always been something about that man I just cannot warm to...
My favorite is when Johnny tries to let us know he is "in the know" compared to his audience and starts going off on how in the middle-east "people just didn't run" and he highlights how in the prodical son story when the son is running back to the father, he is like utterly humiliating himself by being a nobleman and running. "They just didn't run" he says. Which is just completely untrue and easily disproven not only outside of the Bible but within the Bible, do a simple word search on "run" and "ran" (mark 5:6 one example of many) and you find many examples.

That guy just wants to impress people so all the ignorant folks who don't know what the Bible says will be like "WOW, thats amazing man!"
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,555
649
113
#73
I listen to a Christian talk radio station on my phone throughout the day while I am
at my main work stations... and I heard Johnny Mac teaching on the prodigal son,
taking some liberties with the text to tell us "what it really meant" that the older
son was out in the field, neither looking for nor awaiting the return of his errant
younger brother. There's always been something about that man I just cannot warm to...
JohnnyMac has no PHD in anything. I used to listen to him years ago until I found out he's a cessationist.
His wrote a book titled "Strange Fire": in it he openly condemns the Charismatic movement. If that's not enough, he judges the Pentecostals & charismatics as one group for creating strange fire. In my opinion he's the spiritual opposite of Kenneth Copeland & just as bad.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,738
29,098
113
#74
I believe it's what in your heart that counts. Are we in a race for the prize or running in rebellion?
Moses said he was the most humble man ever, and Paul told us he (Paul) was the chief of sinners, and
Solomon was the wisest, so if we want a prize for something, it had better be for something else
.;):unsure::giggle:
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,812
6,459
113
62
#75
Moses said he was the most humble man ever, and Paul told us he (Paul) was the chief of sinners, and
Solomon was the wisest, so if we want a prize for something, it had better be for something else
.;):unsure::giggle:
I imagine there's still a crown or two still available.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,879
5,623
113
#76
When they HEARD this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEARTS, and said men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO?
How did they hear except their ears were opened as the word of God was preached...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?
What caused their heart to be pricked? Was it not the work of the Holy Spirit to convince them of sin?
What response should attend a genuine act of God upon the heart, mind and will of an individual? John the Baptist called the Pharisees who came for his baptism to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. What are the fruits of true salvation? Repentance and baptism. Fruits of...not seeds producing.
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

v “he that is saved shall be baptized and believe “ if we believe the gospel and what it says we’ll understand baptism is for the remission of sins in Christs name if we believe that we’re going to get baptized as a reaction of faith because we want remission of sins

It’s not an afterthought though its something we’re commanded to do whether we have or haven’t received the spirit because we believe either like this

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost

( peter instantly says )Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-45, 47-48‬ ‭

Or if it’s this order

Its an act of faith it only becomes relevant if we believe what Jesus says of it what the gospel teaches of it what the epistles reveal of it

Stuff like this matters that we hear and accept it So we understand baptisms significance by faith “ hearing the word about it “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6, 11-12, 15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is important to overcoming sin believing we died with Jesus is part of our faith getting baptized is the instruction we’re given for inclusion by faith believing what we heard

baptism becomes important when we let in the teachings surrounding it

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, brethren, how that the law hath dominion over a man ( only ) as long as he liveth? Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When a sinner dies the law ends there’s no more it says to a dead sinner ot ends it’s authority at death , Christ died so we can have a New Testament that gives life Breathes new life into us baptism is what we’re told to do to have our sins remitted , to be born as a child of Abraham an Hier of God , to have Jesus death credited to our sins we accept it and act in faith it’s something Jesus told us to do and the Bible explains what it means it’s no more or no less it’s a matter of who will hear and believe it
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,228
1,124
113
New Zealand
#77
I believe it's what in your heart that counts. Are we in a race for the prize or running in rebellion?
I'm not in rebellion.. sin grieves me. But the grace of Jesus never leaves so I can get back up again.

So then sin in undone. Do you see how osas works? Since sin doesn't undo salvation... We can flee from it. We aren't on a mouse wheel of effort.

If we have to keep a level of performance.. then we are still in bonds to sin. See the difference?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,812
6,459
113
62
#78
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

v “he that is saved shall be baptized and believe “ if we believe the gospel and what it says we’ll understand baptism is for the remission of sins in Christs name if we believe that we’re going to get baptized as a reaction of faith because we want remission of sins

It’s not an afterthought though its something we’re commanded to do whether we have or haven’t received the spirit because we believe either like this

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost

( peter instantly says )Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-45, 47-48‬ ‭

Or if it’s this order

Its an act of faith it only becomes relevant if we believe what Jesus says of it what the gospel teaches of it what the epistles reveal of it

Stuff like this matters that we hear and accept it So we understand baptisms significance by faith “ hearing the word about it “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6, 11-12, 15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is important to overcoming sin believing we died with Jesus is part of our faith getting baptized is the instruction we’re given for inclusion by faith believing what we heard

baptism becomes important when we let in the teachings surrounding it

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, brethren, how that the law hath dominion over a man ( only ) as long as he liveth? Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When a sinner dies the law ends there’s no more it says to a dead sinner ot ends it’s authority at death , Christ died so we can have a New Testament that gives life Breathes new life into us baptism is what we’re told to do to have our sins remitted , to be born as a child of Abraham an Hier of God , to have Jesus death credited to our sins we accept it and act in faith it’s something Jesus told us to do and the Bible explains what it means it’s no more or no less it’s a matter of who will hear and believe it
Perhaps our difference stems from our understanding of baptism. I don't believe we are baptized into Christ in water baptism. I believe being baptized into Christ is not an act upon us but a judicial declaration positionally. This occurs in my understanding as a part of salvation and is metaphorically portrayed in water baptism.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#79
There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular...
One is Lordship salvation.
The other main problem is baptismal regeneration.
.

I don't think these 2 issues are the 2 primary salvation issues of today.

I think there are other issues, which confuse or prevent salvation, which are probably either more prevalent or more concerning.


Overall: These are good topics for discussion, and we SHOULD discuss them... but let's not answer these, and then lull ourselves to sleep thinking these answers give us the keys to the average unbeliever.






God Bless, and I hope you all have a great week.

.

.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,879
5,623
113
#80
Perhaps our difference stems from our understanding of baptism. I don't believe we are baptized into Christ in water baptism. I believe being baptized into Christ is not an act upon us but a judicial declaration positionally. This occurs in my understanding as a part of salvation and is metaphorically portrayed in water baptism.
yeah but see whenever baptism is mentioned it’s this

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see my point is there’s one baptism

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And that one baptism is always done in water it’s the same baptism Jesus partook of all his disciples partook of before and after the cross like that person above or there’s folks ot specifically mentions water in baptism

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If there’s one baptism like it says and it’s well explained to be done in water for remission of sins why are we talking about a second form of “ baptism “ the apostles established baptism in water done in Jesus name for the remission of sins it’s the same baptism God sent before Jesus came forth done in water for remission of sins there is no second is my point Jesus gives the spirit to anyone that believes that’s what John was talking about it isn’t a second baotism just part of the one baptism