Understanding God’s election

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Dec 27, 2024
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I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …


Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!


Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …

“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)

God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.

“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).


The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.
This is very much in line with my views of Biblical soteriology. For the same reasons as John Gill and Herman Hoeksema, I believe in supralapsarians double predestination and reject both "common grace" and the "well meant-offer", and for some reason people think this view is peculiar to Calvinists - it's not, it's just that a lot of radical Reformation heirs in the USA make it seem so.
What's peculiar to Reformed and Calvinists theology is actually accepted by most Evangelicals, but they're not aware of it.
Long story short, predestination was not invented but Calvin and half of what made Calvin distinctive is actually common to the same people that curse his name.
 
I included some pertinent verses which contradict the conclusion you draw from your verses that God hates those He does not choose to save--which is a blasphemous accusation that results from not arguing with the evil angel of false light. My argument aligns or harmonizes with all pertinent scripture as follows:

[Jhn 17:9 KJV] "I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Harmonization: Whoever believes in Jesus becomes one of them for whom Jesus prayed. Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.

DT 30:19, “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.”

Harmonization: Those who choose death/curses remain part of the world for whom Jesus did not pray.

MT 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

Harmonization: Jesus longed or prayed for the unbelieving world to repent and become willing to choose life/blessings.

1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

Harmonization: God wants everyone in the world to be saved although some choose not to be gathered under His wings. IOW, God initiates; souls cooperate–or not. (Cf. RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10)

RM 11:7, “What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did”,

Harmonization: This seems to speak of both corporate Israel and elect individuals including those from corporate “Gentiledom”.
An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart. Thus, we conclude that some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28), because the Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16). God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just as the Gentiles were (cf. ACTS 28:26-27), so that He may have mercy on them all–that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2THS 1:6).

EPH 1:3-14, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

Harmonization: What the all-loving God predestined was NOT that some souls would be damned, but rather the plan of salvation to elect potentially all humanity, whom He loves and atoned for (1TM 2:3-5), if they exercise their God-given grace of volition to accept His offer of grace IN Christ (2THS 2:10).

Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Harmonization: Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.

Luke 8:10, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'”

Harmonization: Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).

Luke 10:21, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”

Harmonization: This means that although the Gospel/salvation is available to all, it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to go through the eye of that needle (MT 19:23-24).

JN 12:32, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to myself."

This drawing is akin to calling, but it does not mean that all will cooperate and be chosen or saved.

JN 15:16, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.”

Harmonization: This refers to MT 1:16, which records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.

ACTS 16:14b, "The Lord opened her [Lydia’s] heart to respond to Paul’s message."

Harmonization: Everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God softens everyone's heart so they may believe--but this grace is not irresistible.

RM 3:10-18, "There is no one righteous, not even one...".

Harmonization: This does NOT say that man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, but rather...

RM 3:23-26, "All have sinned... and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus... to demonstrate His righteousness... so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

RM 9:11-16, "...Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!... It does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy... God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

Harmonization: This does not say that God wants to harden anyone, although He could have chosen to do so, but rather...

RM 9:23, " What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy... not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles... who did not pursue righteousness but have obtained it--a righteousness that is by faith."

2TM 2:25-26, "Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance... and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

Harmonization: LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free, and so God must give sinners sufficient sense for repenting/escaping, because...

2PT 3:9, "The Lord is not... wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." although He allows people to believe a lie...

2THS 2:10, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved."

P.S. regarding synonyms for "elect":

elect (MT 24:22,24&31) = disciples (MT 28:7-8,13,16&19) = reborn (JN 3:3&7) = believers (JN 3:16, 5:24, 6:35-40 & 20:29) = saints (ACTS 9:32, RM 1:7, 8:27) = Christians (ACTS 11:26, 26:28) = saved (ACTS 16:30-31) = those in Christ (RM 8:1, EPH 1:1-13) = Spirit-led (RM 8:2-16) = children/sons/heirs of God (RM 8:14-21) = the grafted in (RM 11:17-24) = sanctified/church member (1CR 1:2) = God’s people (1CR 16:1) = church/saints (2CR 1:1 = the faithful/holy (EPH 1:1, PHP 1:2) = chosen in Christ (EPH 1:4-11) = members of God’s household (EPH 2:19) = soldier/worker (PHL v.2&24)
Your attempted harmonizations. are in reality rationalizations that deny what is clearly revealed truth.
You make this unscriptural claim for example!
[An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart.]
Who says this? Scripture certainly does not say this! What this says is that you do not like the biblical God revealed in scripture, but rather you are now inventing your own god that you can dictate to, and have him do what you think he should do, after your own image.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Your attempted harmonizations. are in reality rationalizations that deny what is clearly revealed truth.
You make this unscriptural claim for example!
[An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart.]
Who says this? Scripture certainly does not say this! What this says is that you do not like the biblical God revealed in scripture, but rather you are now inventing your own god that you can dictate to, and have him do what you think he should do, after your own image.
Exactly right! The freewillers create a god made in their own image and likeness, and that god had better conform his thoughts to their thoughts and his ways to their ways; for their thoughts are much higher than their god and their ways far superior.
 

cv5

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[An all-loving God would have elected to give everyone a new heart.]
An all-loving God does not do shotgun weddings. It is far beneath His dignity.
And, just so you know, all of God's covenants require that BOTH parties are both CAPABLE and WILLING to discharge their FREE WILL consent before they are ratified. BOTH parties to God's covenants are always WILLING VOLUNTEERS with the benefit of INFORMED CONSENT.......not HOSTAGES.

They make conscious CHOICES.

Same goes for the New Covenant.
That is how Holy God does business with fallen men.

[Exo 19:8 KJV]
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Oh another thing dear Calvinites, Moses went UP AND DOWN the mountain at least EIGHT TIMES......negotiating WITH YHVH.
That right. Eight times. Hammering out the details. Yup.
 

Rufus

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What is the second advent to you?

During the Millennium the nations outside of Israel will consist of gentiles who survived the Tribulation.
Israel itself will be the homebase for the Lord Jesus Christ's rule on the Throne of David over the Jews as their King.

And.... for all the Christians who now insisted now upon living by weak, or false teachings?
They will not be allowed to reign with Christ for the Millennium.
Only those who seek sound doctrine will be chosen will reign with Him.

Many are called.
Many follow weak or distorted teachings.
Many will not be allowed on earth for the Millennium.
For, many are called (saved).
But only a few will be chosen to reign with Him.
Why can't you answer my question: How many second advents do you dispens have? I believe there is only one! And that would be the one Peter talks about in 2Pet 3.

And why do you bring up the irrelevant tribulation and millennium? Are these taught in Rev 21 - 22? Are these two chapters teaching that Israel is going to be the only nation that is going to occupy the new earth?

But since you brought up the 1,000-year millennium, I do have a question to ask you about that: Will that 1,000-year earthly kingdom that will be of this world and that flesh and blood cannot inherit be God's new order of things or will it still be the old order?
 
"cv5,

[An all-loving God does not do shotgun weddings. It is far beneath His dignity.}

not even sure what this is supposed to mean, but I do not see it in scripture at all. Again, you seem to want to invent your own god.


[And, just so you know, all of God's covenants require that BOTH parties are both CAPABLE and WILLING to discharge their FREE WILL consent before they are ratified. BOTH parties to God's covenants are always WILLING VOLUNTEERS with the benefit of INFORMED CONSENT.......not HOSTAGES.]

Another completely unbiblical statement. In the actual bible God had Abraham go to sleep before the Covenant was made with him,lol not Abraham using his mythical "free will" that you try and insert in your version of the events:cautious:.Where was the "informed consent"??
Why do you feel the need to attempt to re-write scripture?

{Same goes for the New Covenant.
That is how Holy God does business with fallen men.}


The biblical God is a Covenant making, covenant dealing God. who keeps His Covenants with love and mercy

[Exo 19:8 KJV]
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Oh another thing dear Calvinites, Moses went UP AND DOWN the mountain at least EIGHT TIMES......negotiating WITH YHVH.
That right. Eight times. Hammering out the details. Yup.


The people said they would obey, but they did not do it.
That is why all the judgments happened unto them and the Kingdom was taken away .Mt 21:43





[/QUOTE]
 
Nov 21, 2020
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There you go genius. Figure it out for yourself. I have already provided ample commentary earlier which you have ignored.
You have NO IDEA of the interpretation and types of this parable. Just to let you know.

[Luk 10:30 KJV]
And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.
Most dont believe man is dead spiritually through sin, dead in sin ! Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 

Rufus

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Yeppers! And this is why freewill is mandatory in Gods plan. Not only are we ALL on trial, we can be a WITNESS For or against Christ.

I choose to be a witness FOR Christ and be a willing witness against Satan.

For the unbelievers~~~~Christ lived and died for YOU personally. Anyone , everywhere Can and should believe on Him for their salvation. It's a FREE and universal offer to mankind.....Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

That is the GOOD NEWS and Glorifies Christ. It is a witness for Christ in this epic trial that we are in. ANYTHING else is a witness for Satan.
Talk about a day late and a dollar short! That "trial" or "test" ship sailed a very long time ago when Adam went down in flames.
 
Exactly right! The freewillers create a god made in their own image and likeness, and that god had better conform his thoughts to their thoughts and his ways to their ways; for their thoughts are much higher than their god and their ways far superior.
Yes, Free will is a carnal philosophical idea of fallen man. We are to think God's thoughts after Him
Eccl12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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Yeah, I know those verses and you're totally wrong! Those verses speak of a true believer's responsibility to share the gospel.
I'm not going to take the time and effort to parse your verses for you because you probably wouldn't be able to grasp it anyway, but
the verses @brightfame52 and I posted unquestionably show that it is God (alone) who gives someone spiritual life that was completely spiritually dead.
So what he trying to say, Eph 2:5 should read

5 Even when we were half dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

or Rom 5 15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be half dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Brilliant
 

Rufus

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Most dont believe man is dead spiritually through sin, dead in sin ! Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Well...the freewillers do pay lip service to spiritual death; they don't take the metaphor seriously. They think spiritual death is nothing more than a little flesh wound that didn't disable mankind.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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So what he trying to say, Eph 2:5 should read

5 Even when we were half dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

or Rom 5 15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be half dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Brilliant
Yeah, exactly, and great points. It's really absurd, isn't it
 

cv5

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Talk about a day late and a dollar short! That "trial" or "test" ship sailed a very long time ago when Adam went down in flames.
No. Satan went down in flames.
Adam and Eve were both unquestionably REDEEMED/SAVED.

Another Calvinite total fail to rightly comprehend Genesis 3. Which leads to the rest of the multitude of Calvinite heresies.

And total failure to rightly comprehend how (and why) it is that Adam was not deceived, what that means, and why Adam's sacrifice of himself makes him THE preeminent type of Christ.

Total Calvinte train wreck. Beware the leaven of the Calvinites!
 
Dec 27, 2024
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Exactly right! The freewillers create a god made in their own image and likeness, and that god had better conform his thoughts to their thoughts and his ways to their ways; for their thoughts are much higher than their god and their ways far superior.
I agree, and there are a couple of issues here that are inevitably shaped by the fall, each reminding us of our creaturely limitations and the prerogative of the Creator.
First, because we are not God, we lack omniscience. This means that even our best efforts to piece together the "big picture" inevitably fall short. Cornelius Van Til pointed out that, “Man is always in the process of becoming; God is Being.” What Van Til means here is that God’s infinite knowledge and authority are not scaled-up versions of ours but categorically distinct. Add to this our fallen condition—our minds darkened by sin—and we’re not just finite but also rebellious, determined to exalt our own opinions to the throne of judgment. We stubbornly cling to the notion that we are the final arbiters of right and wrong, of fair and unfair, but Scripture reminds us that “the Lord is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him” (Hab. 2:20). God alone is the standard of value, and we would do well to remember it.
Second, the disconnect between human norms and divine prerogatives is fundamental. We often attempt to map what is permissible or impermissible for us directly onto God, but this assumes equality where there is none. As John Gill aptly notes in his Body of Divinity, “God is under no obligation to his creatures, nor can they lay him under any.” For example, we as humans are not in a position to condemn anyone to hell—it would be the height of hypocrisy and presumption for us to attempt it. But God, in His infinite wisdom, justice, and righteousness, not only has the right but the moral perfection to condemn sin as it deserves.
This principle extends to the temporal punishments He prescribed for Israel. Were we to enact such penalties unilaterally, we would be overstepping our bounds, acting not as creatures under authority but as usurpers of the divine throne. Yet God, as the source and standard of all justice, has every right to demand what He will. His commands are not arbitrary; they reflect His perfect nature. As Van Til emphasizes, we must “think God’s thoughts after Him,” not pit our fallen judgments against His sovereign decrees.
We need to recognize both the chasm between Creator and creature and the fallenness of our own faculties. The sooner we stop judging God by human standards, the sooner we can begin to understand what it means to worship Him as He truly is—holy, righteous, and utterly beyond reproach.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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So what he trying to say, Eph 2:5 should read

5 Even when we were half dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

or Rom 5 15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be half dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Brilliant
Wake up and smell the coffee bub.

You DEMAND that all must partake of your supposed "gnosis" of Ephesians 2:5 to be saved.
In fact there were MULTITUDES UPON MULTITUDES who were saved BEFORE Eph 2:5 was ever written!
Same goes for the book of Romans.

Not to mention that you haven't the slightest idea of what those passages are meant to convey.
 
Well...the freewillers do pay lip service to spiritual death; they don't take the metaphor seriously. They think spiritual death is nothing more than a little flesh wound that didn't disable mankind.
Exactly correct... They think Adam was wounded and not dead, he justs needs a little rehab and therapy as if sin does not bring men and women into bondage
 
Nov 21, 2020
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Wake up and smell the coffee bub.

You DEMAND that all must partake of your supposed "gnosis" of Ephesians 2:5 to be saved.
In fact there were MULTITUDES UPON MULTITUDES who were saved BEFORE Eph 2:5 was ever written!
Same goes for the book of Romans.

Not to mention that you haven't the slightest idea of what those passages are meant to convey.
You believe Man isnt dead in sin as scripture says here Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

And yes there were people saved b4 the writing of Eph 2:5 so whats your point ? They were still at one time dead in sin, that goes all the way back to Adam Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.