Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Gentiles are grafted in. We don't replace the Jews.

The Jews (the cultivated olive tree) were grafted out.

Then the Gentiles (wild olive tree) were grafted in.

Both groups were branches attached to the root which was Christ.

In Christ the distinction between these two groups evaporates.

All becomes one eventually.

So I agree that the Gentiles cannot replace the Jews at the present time.

 

[Rufus]

........ for they are the only ones God wills to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth?

You have no idea how "donkey" backwards you are about God.
But, to make your inconsistencies work, you settle upon rationales that insult the Integrity of God.

Rather than question your position. One, that you should if you sensed the nature of God?
You take a position that makes God appear to be limited and frustrated, unable to have a righteous resolve,
making God look like he cheats at cards. And then? Declares... "I own the deck!"

You have your God caught in a dilemma of contradiction and inconsistency.
One that forces himself to contradict His divine nature, as to make things work for your choice doctrinal thesis to work.

And, when confronted by solid reasoning?
You duck duck behind some picket fence by writing off the other as an Armenian, or free-willer.

TULIP makes no sense in the light of the fairness and justness of a Righteous God.

But, back when it originated? TULIP would hold the mood of someone who just walked away from the tyrannical insanity of the Vatican, only to replace it with something less tyrannical, and seemingly less insane. The common man was uneducated at the
time both denominations faced off, and were seen as viable and fitting for those so inclined to be wanting to be told what to think
without question.

God decreed before the foundation of the world that I would make this post.

..............

Are you saying that God is as dumb as you are?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I guess you never read Rom 9:16ff.?

The verse doesn't change what I said. I have read the Bible, you can stop pulling out random verses. I know what it says and what it doesn't.

 

[Cameron143]

John 16:8
And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.

Not sure how you interpret "convict the world" but no doubt you will.

The gift of the Spirit, also referred to by Jesus as the gift of the Father and prophesied by the prophet Joel, is not what is in view in Romans 5:18, and neither is it Him functioning in the capacity that you have shared.

 

[fredoheaven]

What's the free gift that came upon all?

By the entry of Christ, salvation is made possible for all. Romans 6:23 answers who and what. Thanks

 

[Inquisitor]

I guess you never read Rom 9:16ff.?

Your reading Romans 9:16 out of context.

I will allow Chat GPT to make a comment.

Yes, in Romans 9:16, Paul is emphasizing that human will, effort, or attempts to attain righteousness—whether by the Jews through the Law or by any other means—are insufficient to reconcile humanity to God. Instead, reconciliation and salvation are entirely dependent on God’s mercy and grace, as revealed in Jesus Christ. To fully understand this, let’s examine Romans 9–11 and how Romans 9:16 fits into the broader context.
Romans 9–11 Overview
Paul addresses profound theological questions in these chapters, focusing on God's sovereignty, Israel's rejection of Christ, and the inclusion of the Gentiles in God’s redemptive plan. He explains that salvation is based on God's sovereign mercy, not human effort or ethnic heritage.
Romans 9: God’s Sovereign Mercy

• Paul begins by expressing sorrow over Israel's rejection of Jesus as the Messiah (Romans 9:1–5).
• He explains that God's promises have not failed because true Israel consists of those chosen by God, not simply those descended from Abraham (Romans 9:6–13).
• In Romans 9:16, Paul writes:
  "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."
  Here, Paul makes it clear that salvation is not achieved through human will, effort, or adherence to the Law. Instead, it is entirely dependent on God's initiative and mercy. This counters the Jewish belief that righteousness could be attained through the Law and human effort (Romans 9:31–32).

Romans 10: Righteousness by Faith

• Paul contrasts the righteousness based on the Law with the righteousness that comes by faith in Christ (Romans 10:4–13). He writes:
  "Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4).
  • The Jews, in their zeal to establish their own righteousness through the Law, missed the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ.
  • Paul emphasizes that salvation is available to all, Jew and Gentile alike, through faith in Jesus (Romans 10:9–13).

Romans 11: God’s Faithfulness and Plan

• Paul explains that Israel’s rejection of Christ is not total or final. There remains a remnant chosen by grace (Romans 11:5–6).
• God’s plan includes the temporary hardening of Israel to allow the inclusion of the Gentiles, ultimately leading to Israel’s future restoration (Romans 11:25–26).
• This chapter underscores that God’s mercy and grace, not human effort, govern salvation history.

The Jews' Attempt at Righteousness
Paul presents the Jews as a microcosm of humanity, striving to attain righteousness through their own efforts, particularly through the Law. Their reliance on works of the Law reflects humanity’s broader tendency to seek self-reliance rather than submit to God’s grace.

1. The Law and Righteousness:
   • The Jews sought righteousness by pursuing the Law (Romans 9:31), but they stumbled over the "stumbling stone," which is Christ (Romans 9:32–33).
   • The Law was never meant to justify; rather, it pointed to humanity’s need for a Savior (Galatians 3:24).
2. Human Will and Effort:
   • Romans 9:16 highlights that reconciliation cannot be achieved by human will ("desire") or effort ("works"). This is true not only for the Jews but for all humanity. The truth is that only Jesus provides reconciliation with God (Romans 5:10).
3. Christ as the Fulfillment of the Law:
   • Paul clarifies that Christ fulfills the Law and offers a new way to attain righteousness—through faith in Him, not through works or human striving.

Reconciliation Through Jesus Alone
Paul’s argument in Romans 9–11 is that reconciliation and righteousness come solely through God’s mercy, revealed in Jesus Christ. Human effort, whether through the Jewish attempt to follow the Law or any other means, cannot achieve this. Instead:

• God initiates reconciliation through His mercy and grace (Romans 9:16).
• Christ’s sacrifice is the only sufficient means of reconciliation (Romans 10:9–10).
• Salvation is available to all who call on the name of the Lord in faith, not by works of the Law (Romans 10:13).

Conclusion
Romans 9:16, in the context of Romans 9–11, reveals that salvation is not about human will, effort, or adherence to the Law, but about God’s sovereign mercy. The Jews' pursuit of righteousness through the Law represents humanity’s inability to reconcile itself with God. Only Jesus provides the reconciliation that humanity desperately needs, and this reconciliation is a gift of grace that comes through faith in Him.

 

[Blain]

So...you take the time to post definitions for the Gr. term "kosmos" and, yet, fail to see that not one of those definitions (or categories) say or imply each and every person in the world.

Moreover, I'm not assuming the opposite of what you are! The context of the passage, which you are still ignoring, tells me what John meant when he said the "whole world". Careless exegesis will inevitably lead to mistakes. Would you like for me to make my short case for my understanding of 1Jn 2:2?

yes please do because as far as I can tell we are getting nowhere

 

[Inquisitor]

The gift of the Spirit, also referred to by Jesus as the gift of the Father and prophesied by the prophet Joel, is not what is in view in Romans 5:18, and neither is it Him functioning in the capacity that you have shared.

Never the less, at all times the Holy Spirit is at work to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Does Romans 5:18 say "one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men".

Sounds like the world equals all men.

Or did Adam only introduce death to some?

 

[Cranberry]

Read my lips, it doesn't exist anywhere in the Word. God did not make a people for destruction. You are making Him a liar.

I don't read lips. I read Scripture. And you are in error. And it is you that calls God's word false when you falsley claim anything that is actually in Scripture is not there.

When we read the Bible we know you are false.

Why, is your burden.

 

[Rufus]

The verse doesn't change what I said. I have read the Bible, you can stop pulling out random verses. I know what it says and what it doesn't.

"Random" as unrelated to this discussion? So, tell me, please: What do you think the passage is saying?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

"Random" as unrelated to this discussion? So, tell me, please: What do you think the passage is saying?

Yes, unrelated to the discussion. It's not saying God created a people to be damned. Period.

 

[John146]

Well...I wouldn't go that far. Nowhere does Paul say that the kings and others in authority are saved. But if you can see how Paul is talking about leaders of Gentile nations, and by extension generally, then we can move on to the next stage of exegesis.

The context of “all men” include kings and all that are in authority. These “all men” are also part of verse 4, who will have all men be saved.

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Kroogz]

yes please do because as far as I can tell we are getting nowhere

Welcome Brother......to calvinism.

 

[Cameron143]

By the entry of Christ, salvation is made possible for all. Romans 6:23 answers who and what. Thanks

Eternal life didn't come upon every person. So are you saying all men refers to what?

 

[brightfame52]

@Genez

TULIP makes no sense in the light of the fairness and justness of a Righteous God.

Tulip is the Gospel

 

[brightfame52]

yes and the elect is with the words not wanting ANYONE to perish the words with the other scriptures I posted all whosover also says who the elect is and it is right there mall these words meaning the same thing not being taken out of context but take his word at face value and what do you get?

No interpretation needed just believe what the word of God says

The elect

 

[brightfame52]

nowhere in what you posted said anything like that show me where

You cant see it, i cant help u with that

 

[Cameron143]

Never the less, at all times the Holy Spirit is at work to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Does Romans 5:18 say "one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men".

Sounds like the world equals all men.

Or did Adam only introduce death to some?

But all men are not justified, are they? So who is all men?

 

[Cranberry]

Attack you!? You accused me of "abrogating" God's Word, remember?

Abrogation isn't an attack. It is a co-factor in Eisegesis.

Get back to me when you think you have begged, borrow, stole, rented or bought enough backbone to address those few passages about Judas that I posted previously.

Thanks again for your example.

Already addressed the matter of Judas. You did not understand those verses and resorted to abrogation yet again.

Your Judas version is your responsibility.

It is not Scripture.
I won't read you again. You've plummec to worldly depths at this point. I don't want to be responsible in any way for what causes your nature to plummet further.

 

[brightfame52]

That's correct, all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Israel were the chosen, the elect, the first at that time, the Gentiles were recently chosen in Christ.

I dont know what you talking about, but Rom 5:18 is about the elect, and all elect were altogether chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 regardless of ethnicity