Understanding God’s election

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel, it is only because they had already become saved, but that response played no part in the obtaining of salvation.
What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel,
I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.

This is the difference between me and hyper-Calvinists who seem to believe that the will of God's elect image-bearers played no part in their salvation. I, see God as the indispensable Primary Cause (Mover) in man's salvation, and man himself as the willing respondent by God's grace. God actually "changes our mind" about who we thought he was, who we thought we were, what we thought we needed to do to please Him, what we thought our eternal destination was, etc., etc. -- all of this and more by his irresistible grace! And once a true change has taken place within one's soul, that person will respond accordingly.

As far as the flip side of the coin goes, the very same principle applies to all who were appointed in eternity to remain as a lump of clay suitable only for ignoble use. The damned who were never destined for eternal life have actually chosen their own eternal fate! God's will for them and their own personal spiritual choices throughout their life are also 100% in sync! No one is ever condemned to hell who truly desired to be in heaven with their one and only True Creator! IOW, no one is ever sent to hell against their will! (And this fact alone demolishes another favorite FW straw man objection of Determinism.) All the condemned freely choose to rebel against God, break his laws, love the world and everything in it, etc., etc. Most importantly, everyone sees and recognizes that the world is badly broken -- except for themselves! People naturally refuse to see themselves as being every bit as much of the problem as their fellow man is who they are so quick to criticize and condemn. But when they condemn others, they unwittingly condemn themselves, as they do not and indeed cannot see themselves as being in the same lump of clay they so often condemn! Inordinate SELF love prohibits them! Therefore, God is not unjust by not graciously opening the eyes to their hearts and souls to see the gospel truth, since He owes his grace to no one. He's not unjust to leave them in their reprobate condition -- a condition of darkness which they love, by the way, because their deeds are evil!

I hope I've made my position clearer.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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What about Mary? Didnt jesus bear her flawed human nature as well being a child of Adam.

“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Adam did not come into existence with a sinful nature -- yet, he still sinned.”

exactly the difference is when Adam was tempted he followed the temptation and then sinned and became a sinner . he didn’t become incapable of doing good but now they knew both good and evil and became conflicted between them .

jesus came as a man born of flesh and blood like we are and when he was tempted he did not sin he did not follow satans words but Gods words through life.

“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

we don’t die because Adam sinned , death came into the world because Adam broke the commandment war I g him about death . He died because he sinned . we die because like Adam we follow temptation and sin ourselves like he did.

Jesus became a son of man and subjected himself to flesh and blood and temptations that come with the flesh . Yet., he never sinned even being born under the law of Moses which defines sin , he never sinned. even when obedience took him to the suffering of the cross. He never sinned. But human nature he took upon himself so we could be redeemed to his image and live

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

he became a real man flesh and blood and faced all the same plight we do same temptations of his flesh but he never sinned he was without sin

He won a great victory it wasn’t just handed to him he suffered and bled and died for it he knows everything we face and all the struggle of our flesh against our spirit

became flesh and overcame it by the spirit thisnis what makes Jesus the man different from Adam Adam didn’t overcome temptation he followed it and let sin rule him . Jesus when tempted remained with Gods word and Satan never broke him
So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned? Or asked differently: Did the Last Adam also have the same capacity or capability to sin as the First Adam did?
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.
Sorry Magenta, I'm not sure I am entirely following your point (my fault) but if you're referring to the part of my comment
regarding law, the law that I was referring to was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, no other law.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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What of Romans 2:14-16? Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires,
they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 So they show that the work of the law
is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending
them 16 on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.
Exactly right, sister! And this is what makes man morally culpable at the end of the day. Men actually do possess the knowledge of Good and Evil! But mankind naturally does not want to biblically deal with this knowledge because it applies to themselves and not to just others.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
4,084
686
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I agree! But at the same time, we are free moral agents (not to be confused or conflated with "freewill" nonsense). God doesn't do the repenting and believing for us. WE do that! Granted, we do that by his grace -- by his enabling power. But even so we do that -- and we do it WILLINGLY! I don't know of any Christian who believes God "forced" or "coerced" or "conned" him into the Kingdom. We were all made willing in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). None us entered the kingdom against our will! When the time for the new birth arrived at God's sovereign discretion, we were made willing. We are not machines, or robots or AI devices, etc. None of these things have feelings, emotions, consciences or a conscious existence. Machines do not possess human faculties which is what makes us God's image-bearers. And all our faculties together play critical roles in the choices we make! The will does not say to the conscience, "I don''t need you". Or the will say to our affections, "Don't intrude on my turf", etc.
Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
nor feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Okay but doesn't God, not just enable us, but fundamentally change us and our perceptions so that no other conclusion is possible
or feasible for us other than what the gospel conveys as its tenets of salvation? We are informed that for those whom God saves, He gives unto them a new spirit, a new heart, a renewed mind, writes into them His law (the law of Christ), and indwells within them with His Holy Spirit, so that they will/must follow/adhere unto His doctrine. If that is so, then isn't God, in effect, actually controlling outcome so that those doctrines become manifested and revealed in us, and must not He therefore have placed them (within us) beforehand to produce the effect He had decreed for us?

Regarding our repentance and belief, I think they are granted as gifts to us which He places into our hearts, by which,
we then act upon and manifest them. Please observe in the following verse that our belief comes directly to us from Christ's faith - it is not of ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In the following verse we are told that any faith we might self- produce, is, and must be, of/from the law, and not of Christ.
The only faith/belief not of law is one given to us solely as a gift through Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Regarding repentance, I believe that too a gift from God.

[Act 11:18 KJV]
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do not mean to imply that our beliefs are very different from each other's at all - merely just a question of degree.
Absolutely! God is 100% in control of his universe and everything in it. As stated in my previous post, God is the Primary Mover (Cause) of our salvation. And His perfect will is never dependent upon any of his fallen creatures' will. In fact, all the changes you mention above are critically necessary to our salvation. God doesn't just renew man's corrupt will, He gives all his elect a heart transplant, meaning he has changed all our faculties that drive the will!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned? Or asked differently: Did the Last Adam also have the same capacity or capability to sin as the First Adam did?
you never answered , what about Jesus being made of a woman part ? Didn’t Jesus carry our flash as well ?

“So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned?”

To understand the problem we just look back

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is Jesus was subjected to the flesh and the flesh is what’s able to be tempted. It was necessary because there was no worthy man found so he became a man and proved himself worthy as a man.

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15, 17-18‬ ‭

It’s undeniable Jesus was tempted and it goes further sayong he was tempted on every way we are as humans tbrough our flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That one verse sort of answers your question did Jesus feel the feeling infirmity we do when tempted ? And was he actually tempted like we are ? Or was he never even tempted but just coasted tbrough like a computer program not feeling what it’s like to be tempted through the flesh ?

I submit that the bible teaches us that Jesus became like we are in his birth subject to satans temptations through the flesh and he never gave in to satans Will he always obeyed Gods Will. It was t that Jesus wasn’t tempted when he was tempted he o owe what it’s like for us when we are tempted we often fail like Adam sometimes we don’t but often we do

Jesus faced the same challenge all
Humans do , our flesh. And our enemy the devil. The tempter and accuser

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:1-4, 7, 10‬ ‭

My opinion is that Jesus was infact tempted like we are , the difference being he never followed temptation but always followed God

“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see Jesus under massive pressure sometimes and his humanity struggling in faith just barely but he never breaks Satan never stood a chance to break him but Jesus the man , bore alot on his shoulders you can see the weight sometimes on his flesh

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.( he was needing strength from the Father in his earthly trial and received it )

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, and said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-46‬ ‭

the point is jesus is God , we know this and believe but he became fully a man in order to be a high priest who could intercede for our sins and save us it had to be aman to intercede for man with god. There wasn’t one so he became the son of man our intercessor and savior our high priest

jesus felt temptations he overcame them he had emotions and stresses like we do he lives a life like we all do faced the same things that pull at us and try to corrupt us but he overcame when we couldn’t to make a way

My thought it he was either tempted like we are as it says or he was never tempted . I believe it teaches us he was in scripture that was part of his mission on earth to overcome temptation and the feelings of the flesh and be without sin unto his suffering and death on the cross




Did you notice Jesus often refers to himself as “ the son of man “ ? Adam wasnt “the son of man “ he eas created by God without procreation or being “born a son of man “ Adam is created mankind and then they had sins
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,582
533
113
you never answered , what about Jesus being made of a woman part ? Didn’t Jesus carry our flash as well ?

“So...in light of what you wrote above, do you believe that Jesus in his human nature could have sinned?”

To understand the problem we just look back

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im saying is Jesus was subjected to the flesh and the flesh is what’s able to be tempted. It was necessary because there was no worthy man found so he became a man and proved himself worthy as a man.

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15, 17-18‬ ‭

It’s undeniable Jesus was tempted and it goes further sayong he was tempted on every way we are as humans tbrough our flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That one verse sort of answers your question did Jesus feel the feeling infirmity we do when tempted ? And was he actually tempted like we are ? Or was he never even tempted but just coasted tbrough like a computer program not feeling what it’s like to be tempted through the flesh ?

I submit that the bible teaches us that Jesus became like we are in his birth subject to satans temptations through the flesh and he never gave in to satans Will he always obeyed Gods Will. It was t that Jesus wasn’t tempted when he was tempted he o owe what it’s like for us when we are tempted we often fail like Adam sometimes we don’t but often we do

Jesus faced the same challenge all
Humans do , our flesh. And our enemy the devil. The tempter and accuser

“Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭4:1-4, 7, 10‬ ‭

My opinion is that Jesus was infact tempted like we are , the difference being he never followed temptation but always followed God

“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see Jesus under massive pressure sometimes and his humanity struggling in faith just barely but he never breaks Satan never stood a chance to break him but Jesus the man , bore alot on his shoulders you can see the weight sometimes on his flesh

“And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.( he was needing strength from the Father in his earthly trial and received it )

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow, and said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:39-46‬ ‭

the point is jesus is God , we know this and believe but he became fully a man in order to be a high priest who could intercede for our sins and save us it had to be aman to intercede for man with god. There wasn’t one so he became the son of man our intercessor and savior our high priest

jesus felt temptations he overcame them he had emotions and stresses like we do he lives a life like we all do faced the same things that pull at us and try to corrupt us but he overcame when we couldn’t to make a way

My thought it he was either tempted like we are as it says or he was never tempted . I believe it teaches us he was in scripture that was part of his mission on earth to overcome temptation and the feelings of the flesh and be without sin unto his suffering and death on the cross




Did you notice Jesus often refers to himself as “ the son of man “ ? Adam wasnt “the son of man “ he eas created by God without procreation or being “born a son of man “ Adam is created mankind and then they had sins
So, it appears that you're pretty much on the same page as my new-found pastor is. He believes that Jesus in his divine nature could not have sinned, but in his human nature he could have. Prior to hearing this and the pastor's short explanation, I was pretty firmly in the Impeccability of Christ camp. But now...this pastor has got me thinking. Could Jesus have been fully human if, unlike Adam, he didn't have the capacity to sin in his human nature?

The Virgin Birth is a very important doctrine. For the longest time I believed it was necessary so that Christ would escape the sin nature; for I postulated that the inherited sin nature is likely passed on to all Adam's progeny through the male's sperm; hence, the need for the virgin birth. But I no longer think mankind's sin nature is really the issue regarding the nature of Christ's two natures. Adam sinned apart from having any sin nature! In fact, I also believe he sinned while being alive unto God in the Holy Spirit, for otherwise how could Adam have died spiritually on the day he disobeyed? Death always logically presupposes antecedent life! Only the living can die! So, it seem now the only true significance to the virgin birth was to sidestep the imputation of Adam's sin to Christ.