Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Recently I wrote a post on the doctrine of Compatibilism. And I'm very confident every true Christian out there can relate to what I'm about to say from an existential perspective. How many of us have acted out of a strong sense that God's hand was in what we decided or were doing? Here's an example from my personal life.
Up until about 8 years or so ago, I actually had little interest in actively supporting missionary work. (And I say this to my shame!) Even though a few times a year my previous church (which was big on missionary support) would give the Sunday School venue to a visiting missionary so that the congregation would be kept abreast of what is going on with the MTW organization that sponsors missionaries. But then one Sunday at Sunday School that all turned around for me! A husband and wife team visited our church to talk about their particular calling to plant churches in South America, Central America and Cuba. After they were all done, I was so moved by their stories and their zeal and love for Christ and for people, generally that the first thing I said to my wife, who was not in attendance because she was in the sanctuary rehearsing with the worship team, is that I found some really neat missionaries that I want to support. Just like that! After all the years I spent virtually ignoring missionary work, I now had a burning desire to support the couple I had just spent about an hour listening to.
And they were just the beginning. Once God put this particular couple in my heart, I shortly started supporting other missionary endeavors. And I certainly did (and still do) all this joyfully and willingly. But at the same time, I know in my heart of hearts that God moved me to get involved with missionaries. No doubt about it. And I praised God for causing me to act in accordance with his perfect, holy will and for the great privilege of supporting and partnering with evangelistic efforts all over the world.
I have to think many of you have very similar stories....whereby you KNOW God's hand was in your decision or actions.
Up until about 8 years or so ago, I actually had little interest in actively supporting missionary work. (And I say this to my shame!) Even though a few times a year my previous church (which was big on missionary support) would give the Sunday School venue to a visiting missionary so that the congregation would be kept abreast of what is going on with the MTW organization that sponsors missionaries. But then one Sunday at Sunday School that all turned around for me! A husband and wife team visited our church to talk about their particular calling to plant churches in South America, Central America and Cuba. After they were all done, I was so moved by their stories and their zeal and love for Christ and for people, generally that the first thing I said to my wife, who was not in attendance because she was in the sanctuary rehearsing with the worship team, is that I found some really neat missionaries that I want to support. Just like that! After all the years I spent virtually ignoring missionary work, I now had a burning desire to support the couple I had just spent about an hour listening to.
And they were just the beginning. Once God put this particular couple in my heart, I shortly started supporting other missionary endeavors. And I certainly did (and still do) all this joyfully and willingly. But at the same time, I know in my heart of hearts that God moved me to get involved with missionaries. No doubt about it. And I praised God for causing me to act in accordance with his perfect, holy will and for the great privilege of supporting and partnering with evangelistic efforts all over the world.
I have to think many of you have very similar stories....whereby you KNOW God's hand was in your decision or actions.
-
1
- Show all
PaulThomson said:
Where does scripture say that all those drawn by God become believers? wher does scripture say that there is anyone who has not been at any time drawn by God toward Christ? Where does scripture say that God's drawing must be efficacious? Where does scripture say that God's purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ?
Find out what the negative inference fallacy is, and realise that you are falling into that fallacy here.
No one can do Y unless someone else does X to them, does not necessitate that all those that someone else did Y must have done X.
e.g. No one can __Y___ unless _____ does ___X____ to them.
No one can ride a bike home from this store unless the business sells it to them. However, not everyone who the business sells a bike to has to end up riding the bike home from the store.
No one can win America's Got Talent (AGT) unless they first successfully pass an audition. However, not everyone who passes an audition on ends up winning AGT.
Spend a few months studing logical fallacies and then come back to John 6 and read it logically.
Where does scripture say that all those drawn by God become believers? wher does scripture say that there is anyone who has not been at any time drawn by God toward Christ? Where does scripture say that God's drawing must be efficacious? Where does scripture say that God's purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ?
Find out what the negative inference fallacy is, and realise that you are falling into that fallacy here.
No one can do Y unless someone else does X to them, does not necessitate that all those that someone else did Y must have done X.
e.g. No one can __Y___ unless _____ does ___X____ to them.
No one can ride a bike home from this store unless the business sells it to them. However, not everyone who the business sells a bike to has to end up riding the bike home from the store.
No one can win America's Got Talent (AGT) unless they first successfully pass an audition. However, not everyone who passes an audition on ends up winning AGT.
Spend a few months studing logical fallacies and then come back to John 6 and read it logically.
-
1
- Show all
Yes, there is election. But it is election to specific roles of service, not to salvation. Cyrus was chosen to reign and release the Jews from exile.
There is no biblical doctrine of compatibilism. And the theory of combatibilism does not reconcile the tension between God's sovereign decrees and the choices His free moral agents make. It simply asserts that both contradictory claims are mysteriously true.
There is no biblical doctrine of compatibilism. And the theory of combatibilism does not reconcile the tension between God's sovereign decrees and the choices His free moral agents make. It simply asserts that both contradictory claims are mysteriously true.
-
1
- Show all
What exactly are you looking for here? It seems you want men to have some credit for salvation? Can not both these things be true and a bit beyond what we can understand and explain? The more I watch, read, and engage in this debate the more I see how much we talk past each other and don't try at all to find common ground.
An example of this I'm going to use an example of someone that God brings to a church, the person hears the gospel in truth, God brings them to repentance then and there, they respond to the alter call, repeat the prayer, and God truly saves them then and there. This person is saved and believes exactly as you do, and are 1000% right. For the next guy, he was younger and felt "attracted to Jesus" after seeing his first son born and starts going to church now and then with his wife. He too feels the pull at the alter call and goes up front and does the whole thing too. Then gets baptized as well after. He is told he's saved, thinks he loves Jesus and goes about his life as a "Christian" until tragedy hits. His body is broken in a irreversible way and he is crushed by it. Time goes on and he wants and thinks about nothing but suicide and wanting to die every day uncontrollably.
He loses all hope and thinking he was a Christian feels abandoned by God and reaches the conclusion that there can't be a God for real. Not "mad at Him", but no longer had any kind of hope. This man finds everything on his shoulders too heavy and one day while all along, he finally buckles. He hit's his knees in complete defeat and see's very clearly what his whole life to that point amounted in, him on the ground with no hope crying and broken with no way to fix any of it, and he just "quits". That was what "his way" had earned him and he just quits the whole world.
He wakes up the next day a new creature. He had no clue what happen to him, and it doesn't even hit him until lunch the next day at work, but he after 2 full years of uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every 5 minutes of every day he realized, "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!" In that moment he knows 2 things, 1. What ever this was, it was from God. 2. Jesus is His Son.
Thinking back on this the man see's no way to say he choose this, now looking back he sees how "quitting" he was turning from "his way", he was making a choice, but there is nothing he can testify but God saved him. When he made "the choice" he was not saved, but when he had no clue what was even going on, God saved him.
So the first guy says "of course our choice is necessary", and the other man says "it was 100% God that saved me", and they're both 100% right, but will both sit on CC arguing with each other all day long making themselves look crazy and disgracing Jesus name.
Do you really not think there's any room in what we don't know about the mind of God and His ways where His complete and total sovereignty over every molecule in creation, works with men's choices to bring about His will for His glory? I personally think this is one of the greatest mysteries of God, but I don't question His sovereignty because I can't understand how all this works. Is there no way in your mind to understand a different perspective and give grace to those who may not think of it exactly the way you do?
These are the questions I've been asking myself lately, and I think so.
An example of this I'm going to use an example of someone that God brings to a church, the person hears the gospel in truth, God brings them to repentance then and there, they respond to the alter call, repeat the prayer, and God truly saves them then and there. This person is saved and believes exactly as you do, and are 1000% right. For the next guy, he was younger and felt "attracted to Jesus" after seeing his first son born and starts going to church now and then with his wife. He too feels the pull at the alter call and goes up front and does the whole thing too. Then gets baptized as well after. He is told he's saved, thinks he loves Jesus and goes about his life as a "Christian" until tragedy hits. His body is broken in a irreversible way and he is crushed by it. Time goes on and he wants and thinks about nothing but suicide and wanting to die every day uncontrollably.
He loses all hope and thinking he was a Christian feels abandoned by God and reaches the conclusion that there can't be a God for real. Not "mad at Him", but no longer had any kind of hope. This man finds everything on his shoulders too heavy and one day while all along, he finally buckles. He hit's his knees in complete defeat and see's very clearly what his whole life to that point amounted in, him on the ground with no hope crying and broken with no way to fix any of it, and he just "quits". That was what "his way" had earned him and he just quits the whole world.
He wakes up the next day a new creature. He had no clue what happen to him, and it doesn't even hit him until lunch the next day at work, but he after 2 full years of uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every 5 minutes of every day he realized, "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!" In that moment he knows 2 things, 1. What ever this was, it was from God. 2. Jesus is His Son.
Thinking back on this the man see's no way to say he choose this, now looking back he sees how "quitting" he was turning from "his way", he was making a choice, but there is nothing he can testify but God saved him. When he made "the choice" he was not saved, but when he had no clue what was even going on, God saved him.
So the first guy says "of course our choice is necessary", and the other man says "it was 100% God that saved me", and they're both 100% right, but will both sit on CC arguing with each other all day long making themselves look crazy and disgracing Jesus name.
Do you really not think there's any room in what we don't know about the mind of God and His ways where His complete and total sovereignty over every molecule in creation, works with men's choices to bring about His will for His glory? I personally think this is one of the greatest mysteries of God, but I don't question His sovereignty because I can't understand how all this works. Is there no way in your mind to understand a different perspective and give grace to those who may not think of it exactly the way you do?
These are the questions I've been asking myself lately, and I think so.
-
1
- Show all
Apply your Ys and Xs to John 6. None of your inane analogies fit the passage. And the 2nd part of your proposition is a mess. What in the world does "that all those that someone else did Y..." even mean? And how does "must done X" apply since X does something to them". You're grasping at more straws just like you did with Mk 10:18.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
-
1
- Show all
https://christianchat.com/account/privacy
Privacy options
Show your online status This will allow other people to see when you are online.
I have mine clicked off...
Privacy options
Show your online status This will allow other people to see when you are online.
I have mine clicked off...
-
1
- Show all
How did you ever infer that? Salvation is all of God precisely because it's a supernatural act. He raises the dead! We do not raise ourselves.
But you are right about how God and his elect are involved in salvation. I wrote a post about the doctrine of Compatibilism, and included a link that provided plenty of biblical examples of this doctrine. I even wrote about one of my own personal experiences whereby God clearly led me to do something that *I* gladly and willingly did. God didn't do it for me -- but he most definitely MOVED or "caused" me to do it! (Of course, some here would interpret that as "forced" me to do it.) So, how did God move my heart to act? We don't know exactly! We cannot understand what happens when God's will intersects with man's. The only thing we can be certain of is that when this happens God's will and man's will come into perfect alignment!
As Shakespeare famously said:
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts...
So, whose stage is it? And if all humanity are "merely players", are we all playing our parts willingly? And if we do willingly play, did we write our own parts? If not, who did? And if any player or actor refuses to play his part as written and directed, how long would he remain part of the production?
Now compare the Shakespeare quote and its implications with this passage:
Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV
But you are right about how God and his elect are involved in salvation. I wrote a post about the doctrine of Compatibilism, and included a link that provided plenty of biblical examples of this doctrine. I even wrote about one of my own personal experiences whereby God clearly led me to do something that *I* gladly and willingly did. God didn't do it for me -- but he most definitely MOVED or "caused" me to do it! (Of course, some here would interpret that as "forced" me to do it.) So, how did God move my heart to act? We don't know exactly! We cannot understand what happens when God's will intersects with man's. The only thing we can be certain of is that when this happens God's will and man's will come into perfect alignment!
As Shakespeare famously said:
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts...
So, whose stage is it? And if all humanity are "merely players", are we all playing our parts willingly? And if we do willingly play, did we write our own parts? If not, who did? And if any player or actor refuses to play his part as written and directed, how long would he remain part of the production?
Now compare the Shakespeare quote and its implications with this passage:
Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV
Apply your Ys and Xs to John 6. None of your inane analogies fit the passage. And the 2nd part of your proposition is a mess. What in the world does "that all those that someone else did Y..." even mean? And how does "must done X" apply since X does something to them". You're grasping at more straws just like you did with Mk 10:18.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
He's in charge. not us. You have a problem with me saying it's all God, I think that's weird and implies you feel you did some of it. I've said this so many times, but think it's worth saying again. I think you raise man up way too high and push God down way to low trying to claim His glory for yourself because "you" choose. I think that is self centered and robbing God. I know you don't think of it this way, but objectively this is what you do no matter if you see it, like it, or not. This I do NOT understand in any way, why you think that you deserve any glory or credit at all. You don't just believe that you make the choice, I agree and His word is very clear that we are to choose and that's just how reality works, the problem comes when you think that you also get the credit for this choice, which directly suggest that you've done something worthy of the glory that belongs to Him alone. If you get offended by me saying God gets ALL glory for your salvation, for every bit of it including "you choice", then that's where I disagree and think you have a problem. From your comment this is exactly where I see you standing. That you think our choice is a cause or required for salvation, I know first hand that you're mistaken. God gets ALL glory, we get and deserve NONE. Does this offend you?
Apply your Ys and Xs to John 6. None of your inane analogies fit the passage. And the 2nd part of your proposition is a mess. What in the world does "that all those that someone else did Y..." even mean? And how does "must done X" apply since X does something to them". You're grasping at more straws just like you did with Mk 10:18.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
When Jesus said that no one can come to me unless the Father draws him he made an unqualified statement. If you want to use analogies to try to make a case, be sure it fits the passage. Here's a far better analogy to use -- and this one is from real life. I used to have a bank that required that all account holders have a bank debit card in order to perform many transactions, even for the depositing of funds into an account holder's own account. Let's say the bank posted a notice in front of every teller's window that said this:
No one can deposit or withdraw funds from a checking account unless you have been issued a bank debit card.
Try getting past that notice and circumvent the requirements with one of your "logical fallacies" ploys and see how far that will get you.
You should have spent some time learning about logical fallacies before posting.
-
1
- Show all
If I correctly understand your point, Rufus, I would respectfully disagree and suggest it is reconciled only by becoming born-again. God places His laws (the law of life through Christ) into the heart and minds (NC) of those He saves, making their will (although not always perfectly executed) a reflection of His will in all things pertaining to salvation. Consequently, when someone truly and positively responds to the gospel, it is only because they had already become saved, but that response played no part in the obtaining of salvation.
-
1
- Show all
You are truly confusing me with someone else or you're reading far too much into my posts! I subscribe wholeheartedly to the Five Doctrines of Grace, as well as the Five Solas, and I know all too well from scripture and my own personal salvation experience that salvation is all of God! I'm the one who has constantly been saying that man is powerless to save himself and is in dire need of divine rescuing. Having said, that, however, God's elect do exercise faith and repentance, for all of God's chosen ones have been enabled to believe and repent. God purifies his people's hearts by faith (Act 15: 9). They're able to believe because they're been raised from their spiritual tombs and their hearts have been circumcised with a divine circumcision not made by human hands, , etc., etc.. They are able to believe because of God's effectual drawing of them to his Son.
I don't know how to say this any plainer.
I don't know how to say this any plainer.
https://christianchat.com/account/privacy
Privacy options
Show your online status This will allow other people to see when you are online.
I have mine clicked off...
Privacy options
Show your online status This will allow other people to see when you are online.
I have mine clicked off...
-
1
- Show all
No kidding, Sherlock! The issue is not opening the account, the issue is the restriction/requirement that is placed on accounts when account holders want to make any checking account transactions. And why would anyone open a checking account to leave it dormant or inactive if they haven't died? In fact, in the bank I alluded to, they also had a policy that if any account remains inactive for 90 days, the debit card connected to the account would be rendered inoperable. The only way anyone could access a dormant account is to go through a reactivation process for their card.
And you should spend far more time submitting to the authority of scripture, for it is God's Holy Word that informs your faith, not human reasoning. Finite, fallible, frail, flawed, fallen human reasoning is not the final authority for determining Truth. When Jesus said, "no one can come to be me unless...", that does not mean that some can indeed do that very thing in spite of what the Lord taught. "No one" doesn't equate to some or many. No one = 0 people. Your inane interpretation of John 6 has Jesus speaking out of both sides of his mouth!
And you should spend far more time submitting to the authority of scripture, for it is God's Holy Word that informs your faith, not human reasoning. Finite, fallible, frail, flawed, fallen human reasoning is not the final authority for determining Truth. When Jesus said, "no one can come to be me unless...", that does not mean that some can indeed do that very thing in spite of what the Lord taught. "No one" doesn't equate to some or many. No one = 0 people. Your inane interpretation of John 6 has Jesus speaking out of both sides of his mouth!
What about Mary? Didnt jesus bear her flawed human nature as well being a child of Adam.
“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
Galatians 4:4 KJV
“Adam did not come into existence with a sinful nature -- yet, he still sinned.”
exactly the difference is when Adam was tempted he followed the temptation and then sinned and became a sinner . he didn’t become incapable of doing good but now they knew both good and evil and became conflicted between them .
jesus came as a man born of flesh and blood like we are and when he was tempted he did not sin he did not follow satans words but Gods words through life.
“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 NIV
we don’t die because Adam sinned , death came into the world because Adam broke the commandment war I g him about death . He died because he sinned . we die because like Adam we follow temptation and sin ourselves like he did.
Jesus became a son of man and subjected himself to flesh and blood and temptations that come with the flesh . Yet., he never sinned even being born under the law of Moses which defines sin , he never sinned. even when obedience took him to the suffering of the cross. He never sinned. But human nature he took upon himself so we could be redeemed to his image and live
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 NIV
he became a real man flesh and blood and faced all the same plight we do same temptations of his flesh but he never sinned he was without sin
He won a great victory it wasn’t just handed to him he suffered and bled and died for it he knows everything we face and all the struggle of our flesh against our spirit
became flesh and overcame it by the spirit thisnis what makes Jesus the man different from Adam Adam didn’t overcome temptation he followed it and let sin rule him . Jesus when tempted remained with Gods word and Satan never broke him
“but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,”
Galatians 4:4 KJV
“Adam did not come into existence with a sinful nature -- yet, he still sinned.”
exactly the difference is when Adam was tempted he followed the temptation and then sinned and became a sinner . he didn’t become incapable of doing good but now they knew both good and evil and became conflicted between them .
jesus came as a man born of flesh and blood like we are and when he was tempted he did not sin he did not follow satans words but Gods words through life.
“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 NIV
we don’t die because Adam sinned , death came into the world because Adam broke the commandment war I g him about death . He died because he sinned . we die because like Adam we follow temptation and sin ourselves like he did.
Jesus became a son of man and subjected himself to flesh and blood and temptations that come with the flesh . Yet., he never sinned even being born under the law of Moses which defines sin , he never sinned. even when obedience took him to the suffering of the cross. He never sinned. But human nature he took upon himself so we could be redeemed to his image and live
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 NIV
he became a real man flesh and blood and faced all the same plight we do same temptations of his flesh but he never sinned he was without sin
He won a great victory it wasn’t just handed to him he suffered and bled and died for it he knows everything we face and all the struggle of our flesh against our spirit
became flesh and overcame it by the spirit thisnis what makes Jesus the man different from Adam Adam didn’t overcome temptation he followed it and let sin rule him . Jesus when tempted remained with Gods word and Satan never broke him