Understanding God’s election

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Rufus

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IOW, no presupposition as alleged.
Everyone has presuppositions, Mr. Studier. Presuppositions in and of themselves are not evil; it's their context that determines whether they are good (biblical) or evil (worldly, carnal, etc.).

So tell me: You cannot see any logical connection between those who are not willing to come to Jesus and God's obvious, gracious remedy, as revealed in John 6, to fix this fatal flaw in unregenerate men?
 

brightfame52

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Sc


No, the one God wants people who able to love, not be programmed to act loving, so He enables moral free will, which some exercise to become elect while foolish souls choose to ignore GW. YOU are the one conflicted by this truth!
You elevate your logic over scripture correct ?
 

brightfame52

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No, I am elevating my logical understanding (because Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, then all of their descendants share that spiritual trait) over your misinterpretation of "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth", because you fail to cite Scripture clearly denying my understanding.
The argument isnt Adam and Eve were not created in the Image and likeness of God, but after sin come into world, and they were confirmed sinners, that changed, so afterwards Adams children were made in his likeness and image Gen 5:1

Man is only restored to the Image of God when made a New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The old man of what we are in and by adam, because of the fall into sin, and death, isnt in the Image ad likeness of God, sorry
 

Rufus

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The argument isnt Adam and Eve were not created in the Image and likeness of God, but after sin come into world, and they were confirmed sinners, that changed, so afterwards Adams children were made in his likeness and image Gen 5:1

Man is only restored to the Image of God when made a New Creation Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The old man of what we are in and by adam, because of the fall into sin, and death, isnt in the Image ad likeness of God, sorry
That's because the pre-fall image of God was badly marred -- but not obliterated altogether as you seem to be saying. The Gr. term rendered "renewed" (Strong's 341) in Col 3:10 literally means to "renovate". But only things that currently exist can be renovated, which means to restore to its former better state.
 

studier

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Everyone has presuppositions, Mr. Studier. Presuppositions in and of themselves are not evil; it's their context that determines whether they are good (biblical) or evil (worldly, carnal, etc.).

So tell me: You cannot see any logical connection between those who are not willing to come to Jesus and God's obvious, gracious remedy, as revealed in John 6, to fix this fatal flaw in unregenerate men?

From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.

I can see quite a bit in J5-6. Please unload your question and ask it clearly and verse specific. Honestly, I'm not sure you have the ability. As it stands it's simply a loaded rhetorical query with your presuppositional tradition throughout.

Jesus tells a very specific group in J5 that they do not will to come to Him and He explains why. At least you now integrate the reality of the involvement of their will in your rhetorical question. Then into J6 he deals with 3 more groups and their issues. His grace is extended to all of them. Their responses differ. Even the ones who accept Him are challenged to the limit.

BTW, I'm letting @PaulThomson respond to you but you should consider some humility in "extant manuscript" matters. You're consistently making some very basic mistakes and challenging someone who is clearly more learned than you on the matter.
 

Rufus

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From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.

I can see quite a bit in J5-6. Please unload your question and ask it clearly and verse specific. Honestly, I'm not sure you have the ability. As it stands it's simply a loaded rhetorical query with your presuppositional tradition throughout.

Jesus tells a very specific group in J5 that they do not will to come to Him and He explains why. At least you now integrate the reality of the involvement of their will in your rhetorical question. Then into J6 he deals with 3 more groups and their issues. His grace is extended to all of them. Their responses differ. Even the ones who accept Him are challenged to the limit.

BTW, I'm letting @PaulThomson respond to you but you should consider some humility in "extant manuscript" matters. You're consistently making some very basic mistakes and challenging someone who is clearly more learned than you on the matter.
Yeah...PT is so smart, so learned, so academically astute and, evidently, at the same time so lazy, that he reads "men" into Jn 12:32, forgetting to check an interlinear to see what the text actually says. What about you: Do you also read "men" into the passage? But yet, I'm the one guilty of "making some very basic mistakes"? :rolleyes:
 

studier

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Yeah...PT is so smart, so learned, so academically astute and, evidently, at the same time so lazy, that he reads "men" into Jn 12:32, forgetting to check an interlinear to see what the text actually says. What about you: Do you also read "men" into the passage? But yet, I'm the one guilty of "making some very basic mistakes"? :rolleyes:

Again, @PaulThomson can answer for himself. And, yes, he is more learned than you in Greek. You should just accept it.

Are you using an interlinear online? If so, if you point me to it, I'll show you how to use it more completely or I'll see if I can point you to a better one and show you from there.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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You put words into mouth. Hell is a just punishment for the wicked, since they, as free moral agents, chose their own destiny. Yes, God destined them for that end while at the same time the wicked freely acted in accordance with God's will for them. God's will and man's will are NOT incompatible; hence the biblical doctrine of Compatibilism.

But you totally ignored the fact that in the New Eternal Order the saints will not be able to sin; so, in your world since they won't have any spiritual ability to make any choice that opposes God's will in the eternal order, then this would have to mean that all the glorified saints will be transformed into mindless robots at the resurrection on the last day. You obviously would be like a fish out of water on that day. You would not enjoy the eternal order at all. You would probably complain to God that you don't have the ability to sin and don't enjoy being his "robot".
No, YOU ignore two facts:

1. Preventing the possibility of sin means programming robots, and

2. If God were going to wind up with robots, it would have been more loving/avoided all pain to create the world ordered that way.
 

brightfame52

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That's because the pre-fall image of God was badly marred -- but not obliterated altogether as you seem to be saying. The Gr. term rendered "renewed" (Strong's 341) in Col 3:10 literally means to "renovate". But only things that currently exist can be renovated, which means to restore to its former better state.
Its only restored in Christs redemptive work friend. Man by nature is more in the image and likeness of the devil.
 

Rufus

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From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.

I can see quite a bit in J5-6. Please unload your question and ask it clearly and verse specific. Honestly, I'm not sure you have the ability. As it stands it's simply a loaded rhetorical query with your presuppositional tradition throughout.

Jesus tells a very specific group in J5 that they do not will to come to Him and He explains why. At least you now integrate the reality of the involvement of their will in your rhetorical question. Then into J6 he deals with 3 more groups and their issues. His grace is extended to all of them. Their responses differ. Even the ones who accept Him are challenged to the limit.
There's was never a time I even remotely hinted or suggested or inferred the involvement of people's will.

And I already asked the question several times. Try to keep up already. Plus you actually answered question #3 it by what I bolded above. Even though there's nothing in Jn 5 or 6 that even remotely hints that God's saving grace is universal in scope, you have reached this conclusion. Where in either chapter do you come up with the concept of universal saving grace? Where in Jn 6 did Jesus tell the phony disciples who followed him that they should believe in Him because his Father has given them to Him and is drawing them to Him? Where in Jn 6 does Jesus teach that the Father gives him and draws to him each and every person in the world? Not even Jn 12:32 teaches that!

Secondly, this false concept that you have also implies that God gives his grace apart from any real purpose of actually saving anyone. His "saving" grace is merely a hit 'n' miss proposition. You, evidently, understand "enable" to mean only that God provides an opportunity for salvation; whereas I see God's saving grace as empowerment that actually causes one to willingly align himself to God's will (Gen 20:5-7; Php 2:13, etc.). This kind of enabling power is found everywhere throughout scripture -- both in terms of miraculous physical and spiritual healings, warfare deliverances and other important sundry of events; and this causal power is also expressed in the terms of the New Covenant.

Thirdly, your understanding of this universally-given grace is also flawed because it implies God either isn't omniscient or his grace has nothing to do with his divine power -- either of which is a fatally flawed unbiblical concept.

Fourthly, your interpretation flies in the face of such passages as Job 42:2; Mk 9:23; 14:36; Lk 18:27, etc. Obviously, the sons of men can thwart the Creator's purpose for granting men his grace, if you believe they can resist it, notwithstanding Act 7:51, which would have to be reconciled with the aforementioned passages. Either that or God has no real purpose in providing "saving" grace to fallen men, other than giving them the opportunity to accept or reject, which at the end of the day reduces the Almighty to a potential Savior, which is also a foreign concept in scripture.
 

Rufus

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No, YOU ignore two facts:

1. Preventing the possibility of sin means programming robots, and

2. If God were going to wind up with robots, it would have been more loving/avoided all pain to create the world ordered that way.
So...going by your logic one of two things have to true about the Image-Creator: He's either a robot himself because he cannot sin; or he's not immutable and, therefore, he can sin! Which is it?

Re your second point, God is going to recreate the world "that way"! And this was a point I raised earlier. There will be no sin or sinner in the New Order! God is not going to recreate the heavens and the earth to just have more of the same ol', same ol' of its former corruptness.

And, not, preventing the possiblity of sin does not imply what you say, anymore than a surgeon preventing the possibility of a malignant cancer returning to one's body.
 

Rufus

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Its only restored in Christs redemptive work friend. Man by nature is more in the image and likeness of the devil.
But it is RESTORED! And for anything to be renovated or restored means that its form already exists! A builder cannot renovate or restore an old apartment complex apart from that complex actually existing.

And where is chapter and verse on man being made in the image and likeness of the devil?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Correction to my first sentence to Studier in my 9270: I should have written that there was never a time I even remotely hinted or suggested or inferred that people's wills aren't involved. Sorry about that.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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@Rufus

From evasion to false allegation to everybody has means all questions reflect. A textbook study in fallacies and a full-time job tracking them.
An update: From evasion to false allegation to 'everybody has' means all questions reflect to lengthy narratives.

You're consistent in m.o.

I'm not reading your post.

If you have a pointed question, you can extract it for me.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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But it is RESTORED! And for anything to be renovated or restored means that its form already exists! A builder cannot renovate or restore an old apartment complex apart from that complex actually existing.

And where is chapter and verse on man being made in the image and likeness of the devil?
Its a new creation, a new man, and its being conformed to the image of Christ, who is the Image of God,

2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4 24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2 Cor 4:4

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jer 18:4

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.