Understanding the End of Days

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OtherWay210

Guest
#41
In the OT, when the prophets spoke of Christ, they never said it was by observation: it did not happen in their life time did it ?
.It would happen on Gods timetable .

The Apostles knew this .Peter actually writing 2 Peter 3 knew when and where things would happen. The earth that then was, the one now reserved for judgment of ungodly men. And the future where in only righteousness dwells . After the Tribulation, after Christ returns finally for the Lords Day .

These scriptures have have all in common with each other ; because they are authored by one God. Lets avoid taking them out of their narrative to fit a false misconception we may have been deluded with .
 
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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
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#42
lol,just depends on who's part of the first resurrection(and who's not), whom the second death hath no part...
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
#43
To: iamsoandsoResurrection is used to mean two things really .

It can either relate to the quickening of the body or the soul . And given the situation, both subjects are at play at the same time .

Its not complicated because the Bible explains each in plain terms.

The complication comes in when commentary is consulted before the scriptures have actually been studied themselves. For every verse you read, you'll get 6 paragraphs of mans opinions about it. Until the plain truth is hard to discern .

And then you have to peanut gallery ( see below ) But id just ignore it .
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
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#44
lol,just depends on who's part of the first resurrection(and who's not), whom the second death hath no part...
You have to watch these "setter forths" of strange doctrine sosandso..:p
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
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#45
Hello iamsoandso,

The harvest is described by the Lord to be when he returns to the earth to the end of the age, i.e. dismantle human government and establish his own, where at which time he will send out his angels to gather the weeds first and then gather in the wheat. Therefore, if the end of the age had already taken place, Christ would have already established his kingdom upon the earth and would have been physically and visually ruling from the throne of king David in Jerusalem according to the prophesies. So no, the harvest has not yet taken place and will not until after the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

The end of the age is not some passive event that will go by without anyone noticing and then continue on as it always has. The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. As Dan.2:31-45 describes, the Rock/Jesus that is cut out of the mountain without human hands, will fall on the feet of the statue, which represents all human government, with the feet with the ten toes being the last kingdom and will smash it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace, the end of human government. Then that Rock will become a huge mountain (kingdom) that will fill the whole earth, which is a description of the Lord's millennial kingdom.
Aw, but do you believe you are already judged and that the wrath of God is not appointed to you and that you will be "caught up",prior to that day? If so then surly you would agree that you are already judged...
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,094
313
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#46
to: OMEGA777 AND OTHERS -

1> there no futuristic 7 year covenant between Judah and some all-powerful
anti-Christ figure.
Daniel 9 is about Jesus' first visitation at the time of the Romans.
One week = 7 days = 7 years made up of 31/2 years of Jesus' ministry
plus 31/2 years until the new covenant is given to the gentiles (Acts 10)
Cornelius' household.
The rest of the verse is about the destruction of temple and the continued
desolation of the temple mount even until the consummation ...

Daniel 12:12 came to pass in 1917 AD

It is a tragedy that millions of people around the world have been deceived
about a rapture that will supposedly air-lift them out of harm's way when this
world burns in nuclear fire and whatever else is coming our way.
Ain't gonna happen. Then what will these people do?

When Jesus and scripture talk about the wrath not coming on the
saints it is not because true worshippers are whisked off to some
other place - a sanctuary in Heaven or whatever.
No true worshippers shall be saved and protected right here on
Earth whilst all this is happening because they have the indwelling Holy
Spirit and are sanctified or consecrated - set apart from the world.

It is faith and prayer that will save Christians not a rapture before
Jesus returns in power and glory with the angels.
Prior to the wrath of God which is quickly approaching, the church must be gathered and that because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on every believers behalf. God's coming wrath is not the same as the tribulations and persecution which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness.

Only 69 of the seventy seven year periods prophesied in Dan.9:24-27 has been fulfilled. When the Messiah was cut off/crucified at the end of the 69th seven, the Lord put a hold on that last seven years and began to build his church. Once the church has been completed the Lord will appear in the air and the dead in Christ will rise first and then we which remain and are still alive will be changed and caught up with them. Then God will pick up where he left off completing that last seven years and bring an end to this present age, establishing his millennial kingdom.

It is faith and prayer that will save Christians not a rapture before Jesus returns in power and glory with the angels.
I would suggest a thorough study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as all of the prophesies regarding the day of the Lord. By what you have said above, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. If you did you would not have made your claim above.

Paul, in describing the Lord's appearing to gather the church said for all believers to comfort one another with those words. And in writing to Titus he refers to the Lord's appearing as our blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and savior, Jesus Christ. That said, there would be no comfort nor would it be a blessed hope, if the church had to suffer through God's wrath. In addition, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which is exactly what that time of wrath is going to be, ergo, we must be removed prior to God's wrath.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,311
72
48
#47
Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall not happen until there is a falling away first,which is when the world will not accept the truth of the Bible,but want to give heed to the new age movement interpretation of the Bible based on spiritual evolution,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,and repentance and salvation is still available at this time,so the saints will be on earth at the time the world is rebelling against God,but He has not given them the beast to rule over them yet,for He is giving them a chance to turn to Him by way of the 6 trumpets,which are warnings to turn to God,but they do not so He gives them the beast to rule over them.

The beast will rule for three and one half years,and persecute all people that keep the commandments of God,and the testimony of Jesus,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then those that remain on earth shall be gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God shall be poured upon the world.

There is no pre-trib resurrection,which is only going to add to the world believing that the fundamental view of the Bible is wrong,along with America will fail at achieving peace on earth,and where is their God,and the nations will come together to continue the plan for peace on earth,and give heed to the new age movement,and that people can still evolve through nature,for that will be their religious belief.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the pre-trib resurrection does not occur it will overthrow the faith of many,and we should avoid profane and vain babblings concerning it.

The world will operate by the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,and the unified religious system which includes all religions interpreted by the new age movement,and repentance and salvation is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and God's wrath is not upon the world.

After the 6th trumpet sounds,and the world clashes with the religion of Islam,which is the worse war ever in the history of mankind,and the world does not turn to God,He gives them the man of sin,the beast to rule over them,to deceive all who do not love God.

The 6 trumpets are 6 warnings to the world to turn to God,and repent of their sins.

An example is WW1,did not turn to God,set up League of Nations to try to stop the fighting and have peace on earth,WW2,did not turn to God,but set up United Nations,and that pattern will continue until God gives them the beast to rule over them.

The beast has power to rule for three and one half years,and makes war against the saints,so the wrath of God is not there,for if the wrath of God is there then how does the beast have power to rule for three and one half years.

God gave the world 7 years to have their way and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on earth,so the wrath of God does not come upon the world until the 7 years are over,and the saints will be on earth during the 7 years,and then those that remain will be gathered unto Christ,and then they will attack Israel,and God will come back with His saints and save Israel,and defeat the world.

Concerning the 70th week of Daniel,the last 7 years,it has not happened,and here is why.

The Jews have 70 weeks to get in the truth as a nation,and make an end of sins,and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

But we see that Israel as a nation has not been in the truth ever since Jesus was on earth,so the 70th week could of not happened yet.

Also God said He is going to make a full end of all Gentile nations,but not make an end of Israel,and when they have borne their shame then He will restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews,and will never hide His face from them anymore,and they will know the LORD from that day and forward,and the heathen shall know that the Jews went in to captivity because of their sins against God,so He hid His face from them,but had mercy on them,and brought the whole house of Israel,all 12 tribes back to Israel,and will leave none of them in the nations.

This could of not happened in the past for if it did Israel would be in the truth from that day and forward,and if they say that it is the Babylonian captivity they were brought back from then Israel would of been in the truth from that day and forward,and would of never rejected Christ.

When God returns them from this captivity He will not hide His face from them anymore,and they will know the LORD their God from that day and forward,and they will be in the truth for evermore.

Jesus came unto His own,and His own did not receive Him,and He said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,so they did not come to the truth as a nation,so the 70th week could of not happened,and when they were scattered in to the nations they could not accept the truth as a nation,so the 70th week has not happened,and when they became a nation again in 1948,until this day they do not accept the truth,so the 70th week has not happened.

70 weeks are determined upon Israel to be in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which they have not done,and we know 69 weeks have passed with no confusion from anybody,but it is the 70th week they are in disagreement about,but since Israel as a nation is not in the truth then the 70th week has not happened.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part,they acknowledge the Old Testament for the most part,but not the New,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved.

For Jesus said salvation is of the Jews,and a Gentile when saved is a Jew inward,and part of the commonwealth of Israel,and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,and God has not cast away His people He once foreknew,and the LORD does not change therefore the sons of Jacob are not consumed,and God said if the ordinances in heaven are still in effect,the sun,stars,and moon,then His covenant is still with Israel,and they shall not cease from being a nation.

The 70th week has not happened yet for Israel as a nation are not in the truth.

The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and the Jews and the Gentiles will be separated.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety,as they try to establish peace on earth,but Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that for they will know it is not the operation of God.

The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians,and the Jews will rebuild their temple with no hassle from the Palestinians.

The world will operate by the ten horn kingdom,and the unified religious system based on spiritual evolution through nature,and fundamental Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,and the ten horn kingdom will rule for three and one half years,which repentance and salvation is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and the wrath of God does not get poured on the world.

At the end of that time the people that do not love God will follow the beast kingdom,and when they take the mark of the beast then repentance and salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in,and God will then turn Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which the beast has power to rule for three and one half years,and they persecute the saints,so the wrath of God is not during the last three and one half years.

Israel is protected from physical attack for the 7 years period,and at the end of the 7 years period the saints will be gathered unto Christ,and the 70th week is fulfilled,and Israel as a nation is in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The wrath of God will be poured upon the beast and his army,and then they will attack Jerusalem,Jews,and God comes back with all His saints,and defeats the world,and saves Israel,and the kingdom is restored to Israel,and Jesus and the saints rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon.

Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away,one jot or tittle,will not pass from the law,until all is fulfilled,which Jesus fulfilled the law.

For He is the perfect King,perfect High Priest,perfect Prophet,perfect saint,perfect sacrifice,and whatever He had to fulfill to be the Savior of the world.

But Jesus has not fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth.

God said He will make a new heaven,and new earth,and the former shall not be remembered,nor come to mind.

God said He is going to gather all nations together against Jerusalem to battle,then He will go forth and fight against those nations as He did in the day of battle,and the LORD my God shall come and all saints with thee,the battle of Armageddon.

And in that day the LORD shall be King over all the earth,and there shall be one LORD,and His name one.

And the people that are left of the nations that went against Jerusalem have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD.

When Jesus and the saints rule over the heathen for 1000 years,then Jesus will have fulfilled the role of perfect King on earth,and the law will have been fulfilled,and heaven,and earth shall pass away,and the saints will be at the new heaven,and earth,the New Jerusalem.

There is no pre-trib resurrection,for the saints will be on earth during the 7 years period,and the wrath of God is after the 7 years period.

The 70th week has not happened because Israel as a nation is not in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The 70th week is the time that God brings Israel to the truth,and causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.

The first attack on Jerusalem by the Roman Empire,because they rejected Christ,and Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and God allowed the attack on Jerusalem.

The second attack on Jerusalem by the world,because they accepted Christ,and the Jews say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and Jesus will come with all His saints,and save Israel,and defeat the world,for God does not allow the attack on Jerusalem.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,094
313
83
#48
Aw, but do you believe you are already judged and that the wrath of God is not appointed to you and that you will be "caught up",prior to that day? If so then surly you would agree that you are already judged...
Those who are caught up will appear at the Bema seat of Christ as Paul describes in the following scripture:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

This will be a judgment, not for sin, but to receive rewards and loss of reward at the Bema seat of Christ. Everything that goes through the fire and survives we will be rewarded for. Everything that gets burned up will be loss of reward. All of those who do not partake of the first resurrection, will be judged for all of their works in the sinful nature at the great white throne judgment that they will have committed, which takes place after the millennial period.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,094
313
83
#49
Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall not happen until there is a falling away first,which is when the world will not accept the truth of the Bible,but want to give heed to the new age movement interpretation of the Bible based on spiritual evolution,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,and repentance and salvation is still available at this time,so the saints will be on earth at the time the world is rebelling against God,but He has not given them the beast to rule over them yet,for He is giving them a chance to turn to Him by way of the 6 trumpets,which are warnings to turn to God,but they do not so He gives them the beast to rule over them.
The on-going error is not discerning Paul's change from "the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord," which is the time of God's wrath. It is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, that will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The order is as follows:

1). The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

2). Apostasy

3). Man of lawlessness revealed

4). The day of the Lord/the wrath of God

That day (the time of God's wrath) shall not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
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#50
Those who are caught up will appear at the Bema seat of Christ as Paul describes in the following scripture:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

This will be a judgment, not for sin, but to receive rewards and loss of reward at the Bema seat of Christ. Everything that goes through the fire and survives we will be rewarded for. Everything that gets burned up will be loss of reward. All of those who do not partake of the first resurrection, will be judged for all of their works in the sinful nature at the great white throne judgment that they will have committed, which takes place after the millennial period.
lol,this Bema seat those who have no part of (Revelation 20:6) hmmm,does this mean that they have no part in it's judgement or that they will then be a part of it?,,,
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,094
313
83
#51
lol,this Bema seat those who have no part of (Revelation 20:6) hmmm,does this mean that they have no part in it's judgement or that they will then be a part of it?,,,
It is important to understand that the "first resurrection" is made up of stages or phases. Everyone who is resurrected or caught up prior to the millennial period is apart of the first resurrection. "First" does not imply "Only."Those of the first resurrection and being changed and caught up are as follows:

1). Christ the first fruits of the first resurrection

2). The church at his appearing

3). The catching up of the male child/144,000 in the middle of the seven years

4). The two witnesses

5). The great tribulation saints who will have died during at the hands of the beast

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. It just so happens that the great tribulation saints are identified as being apart of the first resurrection, but are not the only group that take part in this.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
#52
Those who are caught up will appear at the Bema seat of Christ as Paul describes in the following scripture:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

This will be a judgment, not for sin, but to receive rewards and loss of reward at the Bema seat of Christ. Everything that goes through the fire and survives we will be rewarded for. Everything that gets burned up will be loss of reward. All of those who do not partake of the first resurrection, will be judged for all of their works in the sinful nature at the great white throne judgment that they will have committed, which takes place after the millennial period.
lol,this Bema seat those who have no part of (Revelation 20:6) hmmm,does this mean that they have no part in it's judgement or that they will then be a part of it?,,,

lol, judgement day=days as in addition to "s" I am not asking you about an many days of judgement but instead if you believe the Church was also judged back then I.e. ad70,,,ad33(approx.),,if it was then it is if not then it's future, "stages" of judgement?

I'll help a little,,,on that day Sodom and Gomorrah nor the queen of the south nor the men of Nineveh had saw this event as past tense...

the thing is when ad70 rolled around did they? hmm,whole lot of things to ponder.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,094
313
83
#53
lol,this Bema seat those who have no part of (Revelation 20:6) hmmm,does this mean that they have no part in it's judgement or that they will then be a part of it?,,,

lol, judgement day=days as in addition to "s" I am not asking you about an many days of judgement but instead if you believe the Church was also judged back then I.e. ad70,,,ad33(approx.),,if it was then it is if not then it's future, "stages" of judgement?

I'll help a little,,,on that day Sodom and Gomorrah nor the queen of the south nor the men of Nineveh had saw this event as past tense...

the thing is when ad70 rolled around did they? hmm,whole lot of things to ponder.
No, I do not believe that the church was judged in 70 AD. When one believes in Christ they are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Believers are chastened but not judged. 70 AD had to do with Israel, not the church. As I said, believers will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ which is for reward or loss of reward. Those at the great white throne is a condemning judgment for the works of sin. The judgements that I see in scripture are as follows:

The Bema seat which takes place in heaven after the church dead and living is caught up

The separation of the sheep and goats which takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age

The great white throne judgment which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom

I'll help a little,,,on that day Sodom and Gomorrah nor the queen of the south nor the men of Nineveh had saw this event as past tense...
I believe that the above is referring to the great white throne judgment.

I hope this answers your questions.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
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#54
No, I do not believe that the church was judged in 70 AD. When one believes in Christ they are credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Believers are chastened but not judged. 70 AD had to do with Israel, not the church. As I said, believers will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ which is for reward or loss of reward. Those at the great white throne is a condemning judgment for the works of sin. The judgements that I see in scripture are as follows:

The Bema seat which takes place in heaven after the church dead and living is caught up

The separation of the sheep and goats which takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age

The great white throne judgment which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom



I believe that the above is referring to the great white throne judgment.

I hope this answers your questions.

The,
Righteous does your thinking of who they are and the bibles match? 1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ,,,,Have the Righteous entered judgement?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#55
1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

According to futurist "theologies" that's one long hand.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,058
40
48
#56
The on-going error is not discerning Paul's change from "the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord," which is the time of God's wrath. It is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, that will not take place until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The order is as follows:

1). The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

2). Apostasy

3). Man of lawlessness revealed

4). The day of the Lord/the wrath of God

That day (the time of God's wrath) shall not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Don't forget the prophecies of specific wars that have to happen prior to Daniel's 70th week.

A good article.......Blade
 
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OtherWay210

Guest
#59
2 Peter3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


theology wont change.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
173
0
#60
From a Jewish perspective, Looking at Daniel and Revelation in light of Mat 24, Zec chapters 12-14, Isa 66, and 1Thes 4;

I believe that the Great Tribulation is to be an end time event beginning with the rebirth of national Israel (either 11/7/1947 or 5/5/1948---The UN mandate or the seating of the first Kenesset). I believe that the first seal was opened just before the onset of WWII, and that the fifth seal is already open.

I believe that the rapture spoken of in 1Thes 4 will occur after sixth seal is opened and before the seventh.

I believe that the war of Eze chapters 38-39 will happen shortly certainly before the tribulation.

Damascus is the oldest continuously occupied city in the world. Its destruction is foretold in Isa 17:1
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
KJV

That destruction is currently in progress courtesy of ISIS.